Tiredness while on cycle is crushing me!!!

[Merc..]

I am on a prop/ winny cycle.

wk 1-1-0 prop 75mg ED
wk 6-10 winny 50mg ED
wk 1 -10 teslac 100mg Ed
hcg E3D at 500 ius and nolva at 10mg ED

This is my third cycle in the past three years. Always have ran cyp or test E or a ultra test blend and some deca in the past. First time using prop. I am SO tired I cant function. I have no engery at all!! I am on a low carb/ cal diet but was feeling this way about two weeks in to my cycle before I started taking carbs out so I do not think that is the cause( in wk 7 now ). I am able to workout and do cardio but it is hard for me . I get tired doing almost nothing. Is this normal to feel like this while on cycle? Any input on why I am so tired??

[taiboxa]

I am on a prop/ winny cycle.

wk 1-1-0 prop 75mg ED
wk 6-10 winny 50mg ED
wk 1 -10 teslac 100mg Ed
hcg E3D at 500 ius and nolva at 10mg ED

This is my third cycle in the past three years. Always have ran cyp or test E or a ultra test blend and some deca in the past. First time using prop. I am SO tired I cant function. I have no engery at all!! I am on a low carb/ cal diet but was feeling this way about two weeks in to my cycle before I started taking carbs out so I do not think that is the cause( in wk 7 now ). I am able to workout and do cardio but it is hard for me . I get tired doing almost nothing. Is this normal to feel like this while on cycle? Any input on why I am so tired??

yeah lack of carbs LOL
and why are you wasting your time w/ Testolactone ?? especially at such a low dose?

[Booz]

i would tend to agree with the abouve in the respect of lack of carbs........

[taiboxa]

i would tend to agree with the abouve in the respect of lack of carbs........

when you say above.. you mean TAI!

[Booz]

when you say above.. you mean TAI!

yes yes i am bowing to your superior knowledge....................

[Merc..]

yeah lack of carbs LOL
and why are you wasting your time w/ Testolactone ?? especially at such a low dose?

I usally run a-dex but my doc wanted me to try teslac this time!!. I thought the dose was low also( hookers profile and other info). After talking to people on the board( mostly goose4) who have used teslac with succes I was informed that 100mg Ed was a ok dose and that hookers profile was for if you ran teslac by itself. Most do run it with provoiron though so I see where your coming from on the low dose question!! Paid lot for the teslac so want to finish it up you know. I will not use it again I will stick with the a-dex. Do you think I should also run a-dex with the teslac or is that overkill? Was thinking maybe like .5 mg of a-dex EOD and teslac ED 100mg... What would you advise on this ??

[taiboxa]

I usally run a-dex but my doc wanted me to try teslac this time!!. I thought the dose was low also( hookers profile and other info). After talking to people on the board( mostly goose4) who have used teslac with succes I was informed that 100mg Ed was a ok dose and that hookers profile was for if you ran teslac by itself. Most do run it with provoiron though so I see where your coming from on the low dose question!! Paid lot for the teslac so want to finish it up you know. I will not use it again I will stick with the a-dex. Do you think I should also run a-dex with the teslac or is that overkill? Was thinking maybe like .5 mg of a-dex EOD and teslac ED 100mg... What would you advise on this ??

yeah teslac is a WASTE imo since its price does not warrant the benefits.
i like letro because ldex does very lil for me
just stay like u are.. if proplems arise incorp ldex

[Merc..]

yeah teslac is a WASTE imo since its price does not warrant the benefits.
i like letro because ldex does very lil for me
just stay like u are.. if proplems arise incorp ldex

I am getting alot of bloat in my face( moonface) but not in my body and using prop( usally not common but it happens). No signs of gyno !! So even though getting moonface still stick with the teslac only?

[Merc..]

Anyone else also feeling very tired while on cycle ? possible not due to low carb/cals intake??

[taiboxa]

beats me just play around w/ it everyone different

[taiboxa]

Anyone else also feeling very tired while on cycle ? possible not due to low carb/cals intake??

only on high doses and or tren .

[Merc..]

beats me just play around w/ it everyone different

Thanks for the info!! I will see what works best for me and go from there!!

[P Rock]

I get the same, tired as hell when on a cycle, may be the test.

[Merc..]

I get the same, tired as hell when on a cycle, may be the test.

Thats what I was thinking also. Never felt this tired in prior cycles using test this time it is out of control using prop.. Does anyone know why tiredness can be aside of test? Any studies that show test causing tiredness?? Anyone else have horrible tiredness using test?

[Mike Dura]

I started a thread about steroid fatigue recently and someone made a reference to a muscular development article saying it was caused my estrogen. Do a search under my name and you can see the thread. Many said they felt fatigued while on a cyle. When I was doing superdrol recently I felt so tired it really sapped my workouts. It's tough.

Thats what I was thinking also. Never felt this tired in prior cycles using test this time it is out of control using prop.. Does anyone know why tiredness can be aside of test? Any studies that show test causing tiredness?? Anyone else have horrible tiredness using test?

[cyclist2173]

Lack of Carbs is the problem and your brain is probably pissed (since it is not gettting the glucose it desires). your glycogen stores are shot and your body is switching to "starvation" mode to create energy via gluconeogenis (alternate pathway).

Do yourself a favor and get your body out of Ketosis and away from the old school low carb phenomenon. Low carb diets work initially because you lose water weight (glycogen with water), and your body starts catabolizing protein (muscle...boys) for energy purposes. Of course AAS and increasing the amount of dietary protein helps to curb the catabolizing to a degree....why do it? it is a fact that carbohydrates help to preserve and build more muscle (which is the BB ideal). You can lose BF and water weight by other means (types of AAS and energy expediture balance).

[Mike Dura]

Re-read, he already ruled out carbs as a cause. You're view on carbs is the conventional one. You should read more on ketogenic diets. They are pretty common among bodybuilders. There was a good article on it recently in Muscular Development. Muscular Development also recently had an article about steroid fatigue and I think they attributed it to too little estrogen or estrogen imbalance. Someone made reference to that article in a thread started by me. Do a search under my name (or steroid fatigue) if you'd like to see it.

Lack of Carbs is the problem and your brain is probably pissed (since it is not gettting the glucose it desires). your glycogen stores are shot and your body is switching to "starvation" mode to create energy via gluconeogenis (alternate pathway).

Do yourself a favor and get your body out of Ketosis and away from the old school low carb phenomenon. Low carb diets work initially because you lose water weight (glycogen with water), and your body starts catabolizing protein (muscle...boys) for energy purposes. Of course AAS and increasing the amount of dietary protein helps to curb the catabolizing to a degree....why do it? it is a fact that carbohydrates help to preserve and build more muscle (which is the BB ideal). You can lose BF and water weight by other means (types of AAS and energy expediture balance).

[stupidhippo]

I dont agree with cyclist here..u seem to suggest that they are not effective. IMO they are a very effective way to lose fat and when done properly to save muscle.

[Merc..]

I started a thread about steroid fatigue recently and someone made a reference to a muscular development article saying it was caused my estrogen. Do a search under my name and you can see the thread. Many said they felt fatigued while on a cyle. When I was doing superdrol recently I felt so tired it really sapped my workouts. It's tough.

Thanks for the info!! I went to my doc today and he thought estrogen could be to high . Thus causing my lowered sex drive tiredness and face bloat. I have also read in the past that to low of an estrogen level can cause the same afore mentioned sides ( except the face bloating). Does anyone have any info on if what the doc is saying is correct? Can to high of a estrogen level cause tiredness and low sex drive while using test?

[D7M]

i can't tell you why, if it's estrogen related or not, but I'm tired as fck (on prop now). fell asleep in the tanning bed today

[k bizzle]

ditto dude. i'm on prop/eq and i can barely move. i sleep through all my classes and barely have energy to do anything

[Mike Dura]

I've read that 25% of the population wouldn't tolerate ketogenic well. I know I do. In fact, I feel like I have more energy on ketogenic than during off season. Only on occasion do I feel a drain. I do up to half and hour up to 1.5 hour cardio daily and my workouts run 1-2 hours. No carbs, rarely a sign of fatigue.
Ketogenic works for me. You should she how shredded I get! Freaky-vainy style! I scare children!

I dont agree with cyclist here..u seem to suggest that they are not effective. IMO they are a very effective way to lose fat and when done properly to save muscle.

have

[cyclist2173]

Re-read, he already ruled out carbs as a cause. You're view on carbs is the conventional one. You should read more on ketogenic diets. They are pretty common among bodybuilders. There was a good article on it recently in Muscular Development. Muscular Development also recently had an article about steroid fatigue and I think they attributed it to too little estrogen or estrogen imbalance. Someone made reference to that article in a thread started by me. Do a search under my name (or steroid fatigue) if you'd like to see it.

I am afraid you are mistaken. Lo-Carb (Ketogenic) diets are old school and are beginning to be phased out already. The low-carb fad initally works well due to the factors I already said, but there is no peer-reviewed studies showings its weight loss benefits long term. Second, most people want to lose fat mass, not water weight (glycogen) and muscle mass.

I have a Bachelors in Nutrition and am a Certified Personal Trainer (through NASM). This summer, I plan to take my RD exam (now that I hold am qualified with my bachelors from an accredited university). During the last semester, I was invloved in a research project that demonstrated the negative effects of a typical Ketogenic diet (we chose Atkins due to its popularity) compared to the New Food Pyramid (mypyramid.gov). This study was limited (only consisted of one man and one woman), but both followed these diets and were subsequently tested on a cycle ergometer measuring power output, HR, RPE scale, etc;. We gave them plenty of time to induce Ketosis and fully restore muscle glycogen in th elatter. In both cases the Atkins diets produce increased levels of Lactic Acid and increased RPE at a similar power output. Jeep in mind this was high intensity exercise (80% of MHR), but still well within what I would consider normal exercise limits. Now, you may be able to shoot holes in the study since it was limited in size (even though random by nature), could have produced a placebo effect, yada, yada, but we wer college students limited by time and budget constrainits.

If you talk to any dietician ketogenic diets are rarely advised. Certainly not in the non-diseased athletic population. You can do all the research you want, but RD's are the only ones qualified to recommend specific diets to specific populations....not MD's...not Bodybuiler gurus, etc; In fact, you will notice that MD's consults RD's when it comes to prescribing diets.

Bottom line is that you will lose weight anytime you have a negative energy balance. This doesn't matter whether the food is from Mickey-D's, the local health store, or Ketogenic. Again, carbohydrates are protein sparing. Carbohydrates (glucose) are your brains perferred fuel choice and your muscles (fat and carbohydrate), but carbohydrate especially at high intensities. Ask any professional endurance athlete (and I am one btw) about using ketogenic diets and those who have tried will tell you its negative effects. I experimented with low carb around 1998 myself. Personally, I would "bonk" or "hit the wall" much sooner on a ketogenic diet and recovery times were much slower.

I must say that the data this individual presented did not provide enough detail for me to definitely point to the Keotgenic diet. If I knew how much he trained (intensity, duration and number of times per week), as well as how much (macronutrient data), I might be able to pin-point it. I guess I was recalling on personal experience as well as studies that might not apply to him and jumped the gun.

[cyclist2173]

I've read that 25% of the population wouldn't tolerate ketogenic well. I know I do. In fact, I feel like I have more energy on ketogenic than during off season. Only on occasion do I feel a drain. I do up to half and hour up to 1.5 hour cardio daily and my workouts run 1-2 hours. No carbs, rarely a sign of fatigue.
Ketogenic works for me. You should she how shredded I get! Freaky-vainy style! I scare children!




have

BTW, Mike.....what do you mean by 1.5 hours of cardio? Not to piss everone off but usually BB's idea of cardio (intensity) is different than elite endurance athletes.

Why don't athletes such as Lance Armstrong follow a Ketogenic diet or any professional cyclist for that matter, especially if it was the magic ticket for controlling weight? After all, in cycling it is primarily about power-weight ratio (and aerodynamics).

Second, what have you against carbohydrates? Do you think that you cannot accomplish low levels of BF or good vascularity w/o a Ketogenic diet? If so, then why would you advise it? Maybe, so you can indulge in more dietary fat or that it was easier for those with reduced will power to follow? Who influenced you to start, a friend or a dietician? Lastly, do you honestly believe that man/woman was not supposed to eat carbohydrates?

[Mike Dura]

By 1.5 hours I mean one hour and a half. I do this time at an intensity of 10 to 12 mets. For a bodybuilder that's alot of cardio and at a high intensity. Why doesn't lance Armstrong do ketogenic? Bodybuilding is much different in it's aim than cycling. Lance isn't obsessed with lowering his bodyfat while maintaining as much muscle mass as possible. Now although I shred up well, I don't feel confident as a knowledgeable bodybuilder. I'm learning all the time from experience and reading and I train as hard as anyone but I'm confident there are many on this board who know much more than me about bodybuilding and contest prep. That's one of the reasons I'm here. To listen and learn from some of these dinosaurs who roam the earth. I would love to train with someone like booz or Chris. I think I have the work ethic to keep up with them too! I've never felt ecclipsed in someone elses training intensity because I train like one sick MF'er.

Anyway, I don't think the ketogenic thing is for everyone but I know it works for me. I also like it because it goes against the conventional way talked about for so long. I'm kind of a maverick so that has appeal to me. I do have a high carb days every week and I do carb deplete and load for my photo shoot once a year. Carbs have their place for me too - even on a ketogenic diet.

I started ketogenic a few years ago after reading an article in Flex (of all crappy mags). It was by Chris Aceto I think. I had great success with it so it made me a believer. The nice thing about it too is I never felt a single pang of hunger and I felt highly energized most of the time. You don't have to count calories - another nice feature and what can I say...it just works for me.

Do I think we are not supposed to eat carbs? No. I'm talking about radical precontest dieting. If you want to look radical you have to diet and train radical. Off season is a good time for carbs.

BTW, Mike.....what do you mean by 1.5 hours of cardio? Not to piss everone off but usually BB's idea of cardio (intensity) is different than elite endurance athletes.

Why don't athletes such as Lance Armstrong follow a Ketogenic diet or any professional cyclist for that matter, especially if it was the magic ticket for controlling weight? After all, in cycling it is primarily about power-weight ratio (and aerodynamics).

Second, what have you against carbohydrates? Do you think that you cannot accomplish low levels of BF or good vascularity w/o a Ketogenic diet? If so, then why would you advise it? Maybe, so you can indulge in more dietary fat or that it was easier for those with reduced will power to follow? Who influenced you to start, a friend or a dietician? Lastly, do you honestly believe that man/woman was not supposed to eat carbohydrates?

[stupidhippo]

cyclist... you are using first normal people as a referance and then endurance athletes after that. BB have diffeerent goals and different bodytypes. Atkins diet is shitty! That is by no means ideal fat loss diet for me. Then again low-carb, lof-fat diet works wonders. It makes me able to lose a lot of fat in a short while with maintaining more myuscle than with other kind of diets.. u do know ketone bodies also prevent protein catabolism? wHile you are right that atkins type of diet dont work so well in the long run BUT BB's dont use atkins when they talk about ketogenic diets as far as Ive experienced that. AND I stress that u cant compare regular joes who try to lose weight compared to advanced BB's.. I would like to hear more from some experienced ppl...

[stupidhippo]

secondly my cardio gets real crappy when Im dieting so its obviously not for the endurance athlete so no neeed to point out those factors... when Im dieting only thing I care about is losing as much fat as possible with as little muscle mass lost in as short as possible time. I weigh 270 lbs and I have some way to go still to get shredded but I was really impressed with the low carb diet I did some months back. Lost 37 lbs in 3 months and I was not on juice. Im not statng here that low carb diets are the healthiest possible but for u to say the weight loss is mostly water is a bit of an overstatement to say the least, no matter if you are dietician or not...

[cyclist2173]

secondly my cardio gets real crappy when Im dieting so its obviously not for the endurance athlete so no neeed to point out those factors... when Im dieting only thing I care about is losing as much fat as possible with as little muscle mass lost in as short as possible time. I weigh 270 lbs and I have some way to go still to get shredded but I was really impressed with the low carb diet I did some months back. Lost 37 lbs in 3 months and I was not on juice. Im not statng here that low carb diets are the healthiest possible but for u to say the weight loss is mostly water is a bit of an overstatement to say the least, no matter if you are dietician or not...

While you are entitled to your opinion, some of the inital weight loss associated with ketogenic diets is WATER which is lost when glycogen is depleted. This is a fact. Second, since I am also a CPT I have had mulitple clients who have had dramatic BF loss while training with me under my programs (without a Ketogenic diet). This demonstrates that these results can be acheived under the normal carbohydrate based diet as recommended by most dieticians. Fortunately, our bodies have evolved to be able to function on Ketogenic diets (which is basically starvation mode), but I would never recommend it, nor do I think it is nescessary.

But you guys are correct, BB do all kinds of things that are not recommended (afraid of brushing teeth before a contest since most toothpaste contain sodium, eating nothing but chicken breasts and water prior to contest). You guys are defnitely unique. It has been my personal experience, however, that this individual COULD be suffering these symptoms from lack of carbs....however, to solidly suspect this i would need more details as to training intensity, duration, and number of times per week, a nutritional analysis, metabolic analysis, blood draw (rule out hormone imbalances, anemia, immune disorder), height, weight, BF%, yada, yada.......there are so many things. I admit the variables presented by this individual were too vague to draw a definitive conclusion and in doing so, I jumped to a premature conclusion. However, he should consider presenting more of these variables in order to receive more precise feedback, rather than mere educated guesses.

[mickdiesel]

i think weve lost site of the focus. why are we tired? is prop or high doses the magic ingredient? im doing 100mg/day of prop and im shot all the time. did it with eq once and also was always tired.