Dbol and Winstrol only, bad idea

**guest589745** · 04-29-2006, 11:34 PM

Medizinische Klinik, Paracelsus-Krankenhaus Ruit, Esslingen.

HISTORY AND ADMISSION FINDINGS: A 28-year-old body builder was admitted because of jaundice. For 80 days, until 3 weeks before hospitalization, he had been taking moderately high doses of anabolic steroids : metandienone (methandienone), 10-50 mg daily by mouth, and stanozolol, 50 mg intramuscularly every other day. Physical examination was unremarkable except for yellow discoloration of the skin and sclerae. INVESTIGATIONS: Bilirubin concentration was raised to 4.5 mg/dl, cholestasis enzymes were normal, while transaminase activities were raised. Liver biopsy was compatible with cholestasis induced by anabolic steroids . TREATMENT AND COURSE: Although the steroids had been discontinued, the patient's general condition deteriorated over 7 weeks. Serum bilirubin rose up to a maximum of 77.9 mg/dl. In addition renal failure developed with a creatinine concentration of 4.2 mg/dl. The patient's state improved simultaneously with the administration of ursodeoxycholic acid and the biochemical values gradually reached normal levels after several weeks. CONCLUSION: Anabolic steroids can cause severe cholestasis and acute renal failure. In this case there was a notable temporal coincidence between the administration of ursodeoxycholic acid and the marked clinical improvement.
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I was just reading this on pubmed.
now, I know myslef I would not have

a.)ran Dbol for so long
b.)ran it without test
c.)ran it with winstrol

But can anyone go further into detail as to why this could have happened?

Seems ignorant to run a "cutting" drug with a "bulking" one. Kinda defeat each other in a way don't they?

**C_Bino** · 04-30-2006, 12:19 AM

That is quite a while to be running d-bol imo. I think his case was a bit of an exception though. He probably already had some liver problems or was a heavy drinker (drank on cycle etc). It is way to hard to say why exactly it happened without knowing anything else about the guy. But definitely running two 17-aa steroids in obe cycle for long durations at moderately high doses is going to increase bilirubin counts due to a liver that is not functioning at full capability. He probably didnt run anything to protect his liver and like I said he could have had other liver issues etc that we dont know about.

Either way its a god lesson for people who want to run oral only cycles.

**guest589745** · 04-30-2006, 12:26 AM

Yea, I know there is a lot of potential variables but, thanks for putting in your thoughts on possible additional factors that could have resulted in this.

***Narkissos*** · 04-30-2006, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Skullsmasher

I was just reading this on pubmed.
now, I know myslef I would not have

a.)ran Dbol for so long
b.)ran it without test
c.)ran it with winstrol

But can anyone go further into detail as to why this could have happened?

Seems ignorant to run a "cutting" drug with a "bulking" one. Kinda
defeat each other in a way don't they?

It's simple.. 'cutting drugs' and 'bulking drugs' simply do not exist.

The two are an old-school concept.. whereas old-school bodybuilders associated water-gains with 'bulking' and the loss of water with 'cutting'

We have come a long way since then.. at least most of us have. Water retention on a cutting cycle is for the most part no longer a 'no-no' for example.

What i see when i read that indexed article is simply a 'bodybuilder' who in his ignorance to the hepatoxicity of steroids ran the compounds for too long.

There's nothing wrong with running a test-derivative with a dht-derivative.

The potential prob with running the two in a 17-aa form is that it can precipitate an elevation of liver enzymes on the short term.

This need not be a concern if total mg amount of the two combined is at the same level or lower than the total amount of mg you'd run if you were using the one substance alone.

For example:

a.) 50 mg Dbol + 50 mg winstrol orally (kickstart in a cycle of test)

v.s.

b.) 100 mg dbol orally. (kickstart in a cycle of test)

Stack A's hepatoxicity is not going to be much more (if it is indeed more) than stack B.

Stack A may actually have less side-effects than stack B.. especially to someone who responds better to DHT-derivatives.

etc.

Get rid of the 'cutting drug' 'bulking drug' nonsense.. and open your eyes to new potential drug uses.

e.g. bloating aside.. anadrol is one of the most tissue-sparing AAS.. if not THE MOST muscle-sparing (it's arguable that the most would be tren )

Anadrol is not usually added to cutting cycles because of the mis-placed association of 'dry' to 'cutting'

Narkissos

**guest589745** · 04-30-2006, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

It's simple.. 'cutting drugs' and 'bulking drugs' simply do not exist.

Yea, thats why I ""'d cutting and bulking and was kinda asking if that was a proper assumption or not. I just thought Dbol caused heavy water retention, while winstrol did the opposite to a certain extant, therefore making it conflicting to run the two together thats all. I understand what yer sayin.

**guest589745** · 04-30-2006, 01:14 AM

And thanks, cleared it up even more.

**guest589745** · 04-30-2006, 01:16 AM

How common is it for someone to respond better to DHT derivatives than test derivatives?

Is it a must that if you dont respond to one, you must respond to the other?

***Narkissos*** · 04-30-2006, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Skullsmasher

How common is it for someone to respond better to DHT derivatives than test derivatives?

To my knowledge, no studies have been done to establish the regularity of this occurence.

All info on the topic is anecdotal at best.

I for one, mg for mg, respond better to dht.

Thus far i have not established an upper limit to my dht-tolerance.. by i know that the equivalent mg dosage of test makes me feel ill.

Narkissos