interesting study on clen..

heres the abstract

Muscle growth in response to large doses (milligrams per kilogram) of beta(2)-adrenergic receptor agonists has been reported consistently. However, such doses may also induce myocyte death in the heart and skeletal muscles and hence may not be safe doses for humans. We report the hypertrophic and myotoxic effects of different doses of clenbuterol. Rats were infused with clenbuterol (range, 1 microg to 1 mg.kg(-1)) for 14 days. Muscle protein content, myofiber cross-sectional area, and myocyte death were then investigated. Infusions of >or=10 microg.kg(-1).d(-1) of clenbuterol significantly (P<0.05) increased the protein content of the heart (12%-15%), soleus (12%), plantaris (18%-29%), and tibialis anterior (11%-22%) muscles, with concomitant myofiber hypertrophy. Larger doses (100 microg or 1 mg) induced significant (P<0.05) myocyte death in the soleus (peak 0.2+/-0.1% apoptosis), diaphragm (peak 0.15+/-0.1% apoptosis), and plantaris (peak 0.3+/-0.05% necrosis), and significantly increased the area fraction of collagen in the myocardium. These data show that the low dose of 10 microg.kg(-1).d(-1) can be used in rats to investigate the anabolic effects of clenbuterol in the absence of myocyte death.

ofcourse doses with rats cant be compared to doses in humans but this seems to suggest that there is possibly a dose which soesnt cause apoptosis / necrosis of myocytes and would be large enough to get anabolic benefits...


link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

here is the old one that most have read probably.. now sure would like to see some human studies but too bad we dont get to see those :)

High doses of the beta2-adrenergic receptor (AR) agonist clenbuterol can induce necrotic myocyte death in the heart and slow-twitch skeletal muscle of the rat. However, it is not known whether this agent can also induce myocyte apoptosis and whether this would occur at a lower dose than previously reported for myocyte necrosis. Male Wistar rats were given single subcutaneous injections of clenbuterol. Immunohistochemistry was used to detect myocyte-specific apoptosis (detected on cryosections via a caspase 3 antibody and confirmed with annexin V, single-strand DNA labeling, and terminal deoxynucleotidyl transferase-mediated dUTP nick-end labeling). Myocyte apoptosis was first detected at 2 h and peaked 4 h after clenbuterol administration. The lowest dose of clenbuterol to induce cardiomyocyte apoptosis was 1 microg/kg, with peak apoptosis (0.35 +/- 0.05%; P < 0.05) occurring in response to 5 mg/kg. In the soleus, peak apoptosis (5.8 +/- 2%; P < 0.05) was induced by the lower dose of 10 microg/kg. Cardiomyocyte apoptosis was detected throughout the ventricles, atria, and papillary muscles. However, this damage was most abundant in the left ventricular subendocardium at a point 1.6 mm, that is, approximately one-quarter of the way, from the apex toward the base. beta-AR antagonism (involving propranolol, bisoprolol, or ICI 118551) or reserpine was used to show that clenbuterol-induced myocardial apoptosis was mediated through neuromodulation of the sympathetic system and the cardiomyocyte beta1-AR, whereas in the soleus direct stimulation of the myocyte beta2-AR was involved. These data show that, when administered in vivo, beta2-AR stimulation by clenbuterol is detrimental to cardiac and skeletal muscles even at low doses, by inducing apoptosis through beta1- and beta2-AR, respectively.

sorry, double post.. but anyway... im really trying to find some data for myself to rationalize the use of clen since i loved it in PCT... too bad pretty much nothing cant be concluded of this... the latter study was aslo just a single administratio, how would that compare to the 10 week continous administration with lets say 1mcg/kg which is a pretty common dose..

another study says 10 mcg / kg didnt cause any myocyte death where as the other one states 1 mcg was enough to cause that.. and that was only with a single dose too..

Clen, oh how i hate thee! 40mcg of you feels worse than 400mg of DNP, you make my heart race, you make my hands shake, doing anything with you apart of me simply takes my breath away, oh clen you're like poison to me, killing my heart cells and reducing my blood plasma, my very life essence, making my cardio suffer, oh clen how i hate thee.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Clen, oh how i hate thee! 40mcg of you feels worse than 400mg of DNP, you make my heart race, you make my hands shake, doing anything with you apart of me simply takes my breath away, oh clen you're like poison to me, killing my heart cells and reducing my blood plasma, my very life essence, making my cardio suffer, oh clen how i hate thee.

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LOL .... its funny how some ppl react so differently to clen.. I feel the way u are describing the first day only... other than that no increase in BP and only an increase in HR (but not to higjer than 75-80 BPM)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Clen, oh how i hate thee! 40mcg of you feels worse than 400mg of DNP, you make my heart race, you make my hands shake, doing anything with you apart of me simply takes my breath away, oh clen you're like poison to me, killing my heart cells and reducing my blood plasma, my very life essence, making my cardio suffer, oh clen how i hate thee.

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that was a beutiful poem...

Big,

You should perform that at one of those snooty poetry open mic recitals they have at some cafes.

I like clen i respond very well to it and at low dose, never had many sides only when i go into higher levels, i prefer it to ECA anyday

Quote:

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Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Clen, oh how i hate thee! 40mcg of you feels worse than 400mg of DNP, you make my heart race, you make my hands shake, doing anything with you apart of me simply takes my breath away, oh clen you're like poison to me, killing my heart cells and reducing my blood plasma, my very life essence, making my cardio suffer, oh clen how i hate thee.

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That is good but I wondered what was your opinion of clen?

imo clen is a complete waste. did nothing for me. resting heart rate when i woke up was 130. healthy.

great