The use of testosterone base + epitestosterone base to pass drug tests?

***Narkissos*** · 06-01-2006, 01:14 AM

Hey guys... i'd like your input here.

Some guess work i wouldn't mind

Postwhoring (+1 posts) will be deleted forthwith... questions will not

To the meat of the matter i'm thinking about changing my approach to getting in contest shape this year.

Usually, since i'm a drug-tested athelete, i cut without the use of anabolics.

This year however, i'd like to hold more size going into the contest.

This brings up some 'problems'

I could:

a. cycle for the first 5 weeks of my prep (my prep is 12 weeks long in total).. complete PCT (4 weeks).. and continue cutting clean for another 3 weeks. Hopefully the 3 week post-pct period would be enough to establish a 'legal' testosterone /epitestosterone ratio. It is necessary that PCT end 3-4 weeks before the contest because the SERMs; AIs and their metabolites are tested for. Nolvadex in particular has a long-acting metabolite (3 weeks circulatory time)...

b. Cycle straight up to the contest.

My planned approach to cycling straight up the show would be to utilise testosterone propionate til 3 weeks out.. then drop it and run a homebrew solution of test base + epitestosterone suspension.

Why epitestosterone?

Because when using exogenous test, the epi test ratio is skewed...

My thinking is.. run the test/epi suspension til one week out.. at a muscle building dosage (for lean mass maintenance)

The lower it from one week out til the day of the show.. I plan on lowering it to a daily dosage that would mimic my normal natural testosterone output

The exogenous supplementation of epitestosterone should allow the ratio to be favourable.. thus legal.. as the test/epi-test will be suspended in a 1:1 ratio.

Comments?

Suggestions?

Narkissos

**Warrior** · 06-01-2006, 01:28 AM

This would take some planning prior to D-Day... you'll need to find out exactly how much to take per mg of testosterone to keep you below 6:1 (the upper limit set by the IOC)... which is pretty forgiving...

**TheNextBigThing** · 06-01-2006, 01:33 AM

I am also a tested athelete, and was thinking of possibly doing the same thing that you are, but I am fearful of running test without nolva (gyno concerns) because as you know, they do test for it. Also, even if I did work up the nerve to use without an anti-estro, some lab tests I have seen have an epitestosterone listing under the masking agent section (I do not know if they can distinguish natural from synthetic, but it is listed). I would love to talk with you about this subject if you feel like PMing me, or in this thread.

***BajanBastard*** · 06-01-2006, 01:38 AM

Well i don't think it's going to work. You know why

**marcus300** · 06-01-2006, 02:11 AM

I would stick with plan A, you know it works and you get results,

With plan B there is a good chance of testing positive unless you hit it spot on, id seek professionally advice from someone who does this all the time, i use to be in contact with a coach for a certain Olympic team who got his athletes through drug test but haven't spoke to him in over 2 yrs, maybe seeking someone like this out who as experiences in this field could point you in the right direction,

If testing positive isn't a real big concern then you could always give it a go yourself and see how you go on, would be intresting to see how you go on.

**cmax** · 06-01-2006, 02:31 AM

It sounds like Plan A is safer, however it would be possible for Plan B to work if you could figure out what type of toxicology testing they are using and if you were able to somehow have the same type of lab tests run on yourself to see if you test positive and then adjust things accordingly.

The close timing makes Plan B rather risky.

The guy in the link below is a former drug testing official with the U.S. Olympic Committee, Professional Sports Teams and he is an expert on drug testing athletes.

http://www.sonoma.edu/athletics/trai...ffleck_bio.htm

He would could provide good insight on this, he prides himself on being a drug testing guru and is frequently in the local papers, however I don't know if he would help you to cheat a drug test since he always been the guy on the other side of the fence.

***Narkissos*** · 06-01-2006, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

This would take some planning prior to D-Day... you'll need to find out exactly how much to take per mg of testosterone to keep you below 6:1 (the upper limit set by the IOC)... which is pretty forgiving...

That i plan on finding out definately. I don't like to estimate in anything i do.. but for right now as we're hypothesising, I'd say i'd have to shoot an amount equal to the middle range of the 'accepted' total of testosterone ... and possibly a 1/4 of this amount of epi-test.

Initially I was thinking more along the lines of a 1:1 ratio though... as i believe it ranges from 1:1 to 6:1.. anything over this indicating exogenous supplementation.

...i'm researching it tho. Thanks Warrior.

***Narkissos*** · 06-01-2006, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by TheNextBigThing

I am also a tested athelete, and was thinking of possibly doing the same thing that you are, but I am fearful of running test without nolva (gyno concerns) because as you know, they do test for it.

If you know the date of drug testing.. i.e. if it isn't random, there's no reason why you can't incorporate Nolva. It's longest acting metabolite has a 3 week circulatory time. So 4 weeks prior to the test you'd quit running it.

What kind of test are you running? Short Estered or mid/long estered? Why i asked is, if you know the date of the testing you can run a dht-derivative (short-estered) which has a 3 week clearing time.. This will eliminate your need for an AI.. and maybe Nolva as well (depending on your concurrent test dosage in relation to the dht-derivative dosage). Even better, you can run the dht-derivative with the Nolva.. cease use 4 weeks out..AND pass the test.

This is.. if you know the test date.

Originally Posted by TheNextBigThing

Also, even if I did work up the nerve to use without an anti-estro, some lab tests I have seen have an epitestosterone listing under the masking agent section (I do not know if they can distinguish natural from synthetic, but it is listed). I would love to talk with you about this subject if you feel like PMing me, or in this thread.

No they can't distinguish the synthetic epi from circulatory epi.. What screws people over is the ratio of epi to testosterone .. ergo the point of this thread

epi.. esterless test.. pure dht.. cannot be distinguished from the non-synthetic equivalents.

Feel free to PM me man

I'm always open to dsicussion.

***Narkissos*** · 06-01-2006, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by big k.l.g

Well i don't think it's going to work. You know why

Yes.. because you think supplementing with epitest will cause some metabolic reaction tru some enzymal action.. making the epitest biologically active.

I don't think it works like that.. but i could be wrong. At this point i'm just researching it.

Will holla back if i find anything.

***Narkissos*** · 06-01-2006, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by marcus300

I would stick with plan A, you know it works and you get results,

Originally Posted by marcus300

With plan B there is a good chance of testing positive unless you hit it spot on, id seek professionally advice from someone who does this all the time, i use to be in contact with a coach for a certain Olympic team who got his athletes through drug test but haven't spoke to him in over 2 yrs, maybe seeking someone like this out who as experiences in this field could point you in the right direction,

Wow.. his input would've been invaluable.

Originally Posted by marcus300

If testing positive isn't a real big concern then you could always give it a go yourself and see how you go on, would be intresting to see how you go on.

Hm, no i can't afford to test positive at this stage.. altho i have talked about it to those around me (those who count).. I think that option is out.

Thanks for the input Marcus.

***Narkissos*** · 06-01-2006, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by cmax

It sounds like Plan A is safer, however it would be possible for Plan B to work if you could figure out what type of toxicology testing they are using and if you were able to somehow have the same type of lab tests run on yourself to see if you test positive and then adjust things accordingly.

The close timing makes Plan B rather risky.

The guy in the link below is a former drug testing official with the U.S. Olympic Committee, Professional Sports Teams and he is an expert on drug testing athletes.

http://www.sonoma.edu/athletics/trai...ffleck_bio.htm

He would could provide good insight on this, he prides himself on being a drug testing guru and is frequently in the local papers, however I don't know if he would help you to cheat a drug test since he always been the guy on the other side of the fence.

Hm... interesting.

Thanks for all the replies guys.

Bump for more input

Nark

***G-1000*** · 06-01-2006, 08:54 PM

I would give it a shoot. But i would also do a test run. By that i mean i would try to run the compounds to the date of choice. Then i would get test on my own so you can see were your at. So this why when you do for contest prep you will have it down packed and know what dose for sure you need to run.

***Narkissos*** · 06-01-2006, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by gsxxr

I would give it a shoot. But i would also do a test run. By that i mean i would try to run the compounds to the date of choice. Then i would get test on my own so you can see were your at. So this why when you do for contest prep you will have it down packed and know what dose for sure you need to run.

I see what you (and the others) are saying.

The test run wouldn't be feasible right now.. as i'm about 12 weeks out from this contest at the moment

/

If i chose to try this at another time... my next offseason may be that time.

Is there anywhere that i could send my blood to get tested currently? Because this is not currently available in my country.

I could get the enzyme-coated preserving serum vials from a lab tech here.

bump

Nark

**TheNextBigThing** · 06-02-2006, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

If you know the date of drug testing.. i.e. if it isn't random, there's no reason why you can't incorporate Nolva. It's longest acting metabolite has a 3 week circulatory time. So 4 weeks prior to the test you'd quit running it. This is.. if you know the test date.

I wish I did (lol). Random tests are tough to get around because of the anti-estro problem. For you though, because you know when you are getting tested that is a very nice option to have. As for the test/epi ratio working for you, isn't that exacly what Balco did? I could swear that I have read in a few places that Balco was giving atheletes a test/epi combo in their topical cream to keep those atheletes from testing positive. It worked for them, I don't know any reason why if you blended it correctly that it wouldn't work for you. Of course, I wouldn't do anything unless I was positive because like you, I can't ever fail a test either. Good luck in finding out more info, I will be keeping my eye on this.

**FlyByU** · 06-02-2006, 03:52 AM

Yes, balco were giving their athletes test/epitest cream. And, Narkissos, it's a 4:1 ratio now, not 6:1. I don't think you even have to worry about using epitestosterone though. Just by switching to the test cream in the last 2 weeks, your test/epitest levels should come back down within the 4:1 ratio.
I know a few athletes who have switched to 25mg test suspension ed in the final week & tested clean. Also, HCG will keep you within the allowable ratio & clears quickly from the system (10 days maximum when in injected sub q & less when injected IM)
I think you are off with nolva's circulatory time. It's half life is 2 weeks, but i believe it can stay detectable for 6 weeks. I think clomid has a detection time of around 3 weeks, but don't quote me on that.

***Narkissos*** · 06-02-2006, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by FlyByU

Yes, balco were giving their athletes test/epitest cream. And, Narkissos, it's a 4:1 ratio now, not 6:1. I don't think you even have to worry about using epitestosterone though. Just by switching to the test cream in the last 2 weeks, your test/epitest levels should come back down within the 4:1 ratio.
I know a few athletes who have switched to 25mg test suspension ed in the final week & tested clean. Also, HCG will keep you within the allowable ratio & clears quickly from the system (10 days maximum when in injected sub q & less when injected IM)
I think you are off with nolva's circulatory time. It's half life is 2 weeks, but i believe it can stay detectable for 6 weeks. I think clomid has a detection time of around 3 weeks, but don't quote me on that.

That's interesting to say the least.. yea i heard about Balco's test/epi-test application.

Nolva detectable for 6 weeks? Where'd you get this info from man? I'm very interested in this.. If it is true.. this busts plan A wide open. My research says 3 weeks however... but i'd like to know the truth so hit me with a link.

I find there are some fallacies online... Like proviron . Profiles say it's detecable for 28 days post-administration. I've run it up to 14 days before a drug test.. and came out clean. Hm.

Holla

Nark

**FlyByU** · 06-02-2006, 11:02 PM

Dr Michael Scally instructs his AAS using patients to wait atleast 6 weeks after stopping nolva to have their blood test, since nolva stays active in the system for that long (sometimes longer).

***Narkissos*** · 06-02-2006, 11:13 PM

hm... interesting

**C_Bino** · 06-02-2006, 11:45 PM

I dont know a single thing about how to pass a drug test, but I wish you luck my friend. I say go for it, there is only one way to find out.

Just dont kill me if you get dumped from the show. LOL.

**jp_blois** · 06-03-2006, 04:25 AM

This is a great thread, unfortunately I do not have any experience to shed any light into the conversation.

One thing I do have to ask is - why not just do Test Susp up until the day before the comp, and then start pct immediately after?

BTW - about Nolva detection time, I have been told previously up to 8 weeks, but normally +/- 6 weeks is about right.

***Narkissos*** · 06-03-2006, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by C_Bino

I dont know a single thing about how to pass a drug test, but I wish you luck my friend. I say go for it, there is only one way to find out.

Just dont kill me if you get dumped from the show. LOL.

lol... Thanks Bino

Originally Posted by jp_blois

This is a great thread, unfortunately I do not have any experience to shed any light into the conversation.

It's all good bro. Speculation would also be good here... as it might uncover some previously missed facet

So feel free to comment.

Originally Posted by jp_blois

One thing I do have to ask is - why not just do Test Susp up until the day before the comp, and then start pct immediately after?

I would.. but i'm not sure it's that simple. I'm not sure what my testosterone to epitestosterone ratio would be if i suppress epitestosterone straight up to one day before the test.

This is me supposing that an exogenous androgenic source suppresses natural epitestosterone production.

Originally Posted by jp_blois

BTW - about Nolva detection time, I have been told previously up to 8 weeks, but normally +/- 6 weeks is about right.

I think the jury is out on this one... I'll have to dig a lot deeper for a definate answer on it.

Nark

**GREENMACHINE** · 06-04-2006, 01:23 AM

Seems like it is mostly Mods and vets coming in with advice. I have a suggestion but I am not sure if it would work. If you were to go to your doc and complain about suffering from the symptoms of hyperthyoidism. You could request ablood test. I believe the general marker for it's presence is related to luteinizing hormone levels, either that or follicle stimulating hormone. It is this that is usually tested for before further investigation. If you were to present herself like I said and persisted in get a full hormone profile, you would know your levels of hormone. Only problem is finding ot how long the test result take to come back before requesting the tese. This will have restriction on how closer to the competition you can run your androdgens. With your new found data you will be able to supplemt your epitesterone levels to bring the ratios in synch.

**jp_blois** · 06-08-2006, 05:54 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

I would.. but i'm not sure it's that simple. I'm not sure what my testosterone to epitestosterone ratio would be if i suppress epitestosterone straight up to one day before the test.

This is me supposing that an exogenous androgenic source suppresses natural epitestosterone production.

I thought the whole reason of Test Suspension was that you wouldn't go positive ~24hrs after your last jab?

Hmmm interesting... could someone explain what I am missing?

**Maetenloch** · 06-08-2006, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

No they can't distinguish the synthetic epi from circulatory epi.. What screws people over is the ratio of epi to testosterone .. ergo the point of this thread

Actually they can distinguish exogenous epi-test from synthetic epi-test by looking at the ratio of carbon isotopes C-12 to C-13. I don't think this method is used by any testing body currently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.educatedguesswork.org/mov..._detectio.html

***Narkissos*** · 06-08-2006, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by jp_blois

I thought the whole reason of Test Suspension was that you wouldn't go positive ~24hrs after your last jab?

Hmmm interesting... could someone explain what I am missing?

No... Maybe you should read the rest of the thread first.

*sighs.. and explains*

This would work only if sports body tested for total testosterone ... not for the testosterone to epitestosterone ratio.

***Narkissos*** · 06-08-2006, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by Maetenloch

Actually they can distinguish exogenous epi-test from synthetic epi-test by looking at the ratio of carbon isotopes C-12 to C-13. I don't think this method is used by any testing body currently.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...&dopt=Abstract

http://www.educatedguesswork.org/mov..._detectio.html

That is what i meant... detection relevant to current sports testing procedure.

Thanks anyway

Bump

Narkissos