HCG durring cycle

[Housemoney]

I've heard about guys running HCG throughout their whole cycle. I read a report that said if HGC is taken at 250 twice a week durring a cycle, the recovery is much easier because you don't have to gain all the lost ground back. Anyone know about this?

[lzicc]

I am trying something new that was recomended to me. I started a long cycle recently that I am going to run for at least 6 months. I'm running a low dose of test c. I am going to take hcg every other 12 weeks during this cycle. I will be taking 250iu of hcg the day before my test shot and the day of the test shot. I've heard good things about doing it this way for long cycles. I would assume it would help for higher dosage cycles also.

[hartyman]

vbnm

[Smart@$$]

I dont use it throughout cycles... I use it at the end and long cycles I use some in the middle. This works for me, and if it aint broke why fix it?

I feel using often may desensitize leydig cells. And before anyone wants to point out studies I have read them for both methods... this is my belief based on all of the studies as well as what works for my body.

[hartyman]

xcvb

[Smart@$$]

don't worry about leydig cell desentsitization with 250 twice a week, check PCT by SWOLE in pct section.

I have read that so if you look it is for TRT patients. That is HRT testosterone replacement therapy for men. These are guys that never come off. So they would never have to worry about natty again.

If you read that and find clinical reference or medical studies that indicate for bb'ers who cycle please link me.

[hartyman]

piyu

[Swifto]

If you want to use it while "on". I'd suggest 250-500ius/E5D. If your using a 19-Nor, 250-500ius/E3D.

[Smart@$$]

bro, take a look at PCT section the article by SWALE. it is not for HRT.

Originally Posted by SWALE
Following a year of talking to patients and looking at labs, I am now revising the way I want my TRT patients to use HCG. I now recommend 250IU on the day before, and two days before, the test cyp injection. IOW, we're just moving the two HCG shots up a day.

Regarding clinical reference, you must be joking... "medical studies for bbers"-->out of this world

My point exactly pal. There is not one study to back up this doctors claims for, in his own words, TRT patients. Not one study or clinical reference. Again, not one. Listen if you go to any hcg insert for hypogonadal males it shows anything from 500iu eod to 1000iu ed(sometimes alot higher in doses) for 10 days and usually not to be taken more that 3 or 4 weeks.

[Booz]

personally when using tren /deca i would use 500iu every 4th day throughout the cycle and for long assed cycles i would use 500iu every 5th day,that is how i use hcg throughout cycles..............

[Smart@$$]

personally when using tren /deca i would use 500iu every 4th day throughout the cycle and for long assed cycles i would use 500iu every 5th day,that is how i use hcg throughout cycles..............

You know what works for you. That makes a vet, or in your case a mod.

I just dont want someone telling me dont worry about things that could effect me the rest of my life. I use a hrt doc and he says the best recovery is 1000iu ed for 10 days strait, it has always worked for me. That was my point if I seemed like I was arguing.

[Booz]

You know what works for you. That makes a vet, or in your case a mod.

I just dont want someone telling me dont worry about things that could effect me the rest of my life. I use a hrt doc and he says the best recovery is 1000iu ed for 10 days strait, it has always worked for me. That was my point if I seemed like I was arguing.

no worries mate i was just stressing upon how i use it that is all,i was not telling you or anybody to use it as such just how i do to get what is needed out of it.................
for recovery that is how i start my own pct,ten days hcg then clomid therapy afterwards......
well that was how i norm ran it but now i use Anthony Roberts protocul..

[Smart@$$]

no worries mate i was just stressing upon how i use it that is all,i was not telling you or anybody to use it as such just how i do to get what is needed out of it.................
for recovery that is how i start my own pct,ten days hcg then clomid therapy afterwards......
well that was how i norm ran it but now i use Anthony Roberts protocul..

Cool, I found this on another board and thought I would share it:

Most multiple use vials are 10,000iu... So even if they lasted 60days and given the typical suggested use of 250-500iu twice per week that translates into 4000-8000iu of hcg that would be used. Now factor in the 30 day scenario and you are only using 2000-4000iu of a 10000iu vial. Hmmmmm. I wander why they would package it like that? Even the single use amps are usually 2500-5000iu per amp. I know it is a fertility drug but for hypogonadal males(steroid induced) novarels insert says this>

Selected cases of hypogonadotropic hypogonadism in males:

(1) 500 to 1,000 USP Units three times a week for three weeks, followed by the same dose twice a week for three weeks.
(2) 4,000 USP Units three times weekly for six to nine months, following which the dosage may be reduced to 2,000 USP Units three times weekly for an additional three months.

At a minimum we are talking 3X the dose suggested normally. I also found other instructions from pregnyl distribution site for male use>

HCG package insert states clearly that HCG "has no known effect of fat mobilization, appetite or sense of hunger, or body fat distribution." It further states, "HCG has not been demonstrated to be effective adjunctive therapy in the treatment of obesity, it does not increase fat losses beyond that resulting from caloric restriction. 5000 I.U. of HCG in a single injection resulted in elevated testosterone levels for six days after the injection. At a dosage of 1500 I.U. the pharmatestosterone level increases by 250-300% (2.5-3fold) compared to the initial value. The athlete should inject one HCG ampule every 5 days. Since the testosterone level remains considerably elevated for several days, it is unnecessary to inject HCG more than once every 5 days. The effective dosage for athletes is usually 2000-5000 I.U. per injection and should be injected every 5 days. HCG should only be taken for a few weeks. If HCG is taken by male athletes over many weeks and in high dosages, it is possible that the testes will respond poorly to a later HCG intake and a release of the body's own LH. This could result in a permanent inadequate gonadal function.

HCG can in part cause side effects similar to those of injectable testosterone. A higher testosterone production also goes hand in hand with an elevated estrogen level which could result in gynecomastia . This could manifest itself in a temporary growth of breasts or reinforce already existing breast growth in men. Farsighted athletes thus combine HCG with an antiestrogen. Male athletes also report more frequent erections and an increased sexual desire. In high doses it can cause acne and the storing of minerals and water. The last point must especially be observed since the water retention which is possible through the use of HCG could give the muscle system a puffy and watery appearance. Athletes who have already increased their endogenous testosterone level by taking Clomid and intend to take HCG could experience considerable water retention and distinct feminization symptoms (gynecomastia, tendency toward fat deposits on the hips). This is due to the fact that high testosterone leads to a high conversion rate to estrogens. In very young athletes HCG, like anabolic steroids , can cause an early stunting of growth since it prematurely closes the epiphysial growth plates. Mood swings and high blood pressure can also be attributed to the intake of HCG.

HCG's form of administration is also unusual. The substance choriongonadotropin is a white powdery freeze dried substance which is usually used as a compress. Each package, for each HCG ampule, includes another ampule with an injection solution containing isotonic sodium chloride. This liquid, after both ampules have been opened in a sterile manner, is injected into the HCG ampule and mixed with the dried substance. The solution is then ready for use and should be injected intra-muscularly. If only part of the substance is injected the residual solution should be stored in the refrigerator. Once mixed the substance is good for storage for 10-14 days in the refrigerator. It is not necessary to store the unmixed HCG in the refrigerator; however, it should be kept out of light and below a temperature of 25 C.

Hope this helps show a different perspective of hcg. Or at least will let people ask why these companies must have it wrong on how to use thier own products.

[Smart@$$]

Here are some optional protocols

Here are a few protocols back to back. One by Phreezer the other by Hogg. Take a looksee...
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PCT-My thoughts on Post cycle therapy ~ Phreezer

Now, I don't want to get into ANOTHER big debate on HCG admistration, but of all the posts I've seen about it the one that sticks out in my mind the most, and offers the most credibility is by Hogg. From my own experience I've run HCG anywhere from 7 - 10 days out and had very good results. So I'm inclined not to believe some of the posts that say take HCG two weeks or ten days BEFORE your last shot. However, those guys that say to start ten days before your last shot, have obviously had good results doing it their way...SO the question thats been floating around the board lately...Who is Right? Two weeks before last shot? Ten days before Last shot? Day after your last shot? ten days after your last shot?

Apparently there is some kind of window here that allows for a somewhat larger error curve with HCG. Optimally you want to recover from testicular atrophy and have testosterone suppression end corresponding with the time that natural testosterone production comes back online. So from doing a great deal of studying on my own, and reading over the other guys posts, I start HCG administration the Day AFTER my last shot. (Ultimately I don't think you are going to be wrong if you wait a week) With the different opinions (that are adamant) there has to be a greater window for HCG administration than was once believed...

1,000IU's ED for Ten days STARTING the day after my last shot.

A lot of the timing with HCG has a great deal to do with what form of aas you are using..It would take too long to get into everything (you can easily do a search and find out) but with simple testosterone there are a lot of blood level calculators that can make the work a lot easier...

Since Test is pretty much test. I'm making a guess (a fairly educated guess) as to the time the test will clear and how long it will take to recover from testicular atrophy.

Now [Since your my size], I'm saying to run 1000IU's ed for ten days starting the day after your last shot.If this is your first time using HCG I would suggest 500Iu's ED for your first time...Once you get more experienced you'll know if 500IU's is enough for you, or if it doesn't really do much and then you can up your dosage to 1000IU's.

the reason I say to start off with 500IU's ED for first time us is because HCG can desensitise your Leydig cells,,,then you'll be on HRT full time for the rest of your life (Hello Viagra) There isn't really a reason to use more than necessary here. HCG is great at bringing the boys back to full size, but like anything else, too much can seriously harm you..
But you say "Phreezer, why 1000IU's, I see a lot of people say that they only do 500IU's?" Well, I've always done a 1000, and a 1000 works for me, So if it ain't broke, I don't need to fix it. Since your pretty much the same size as I am, I am recommending you do the same amount as me. Now, some guys do respond well to 500IU's..I don't know, I can only speak for myself and you may respond nicely to 500IU's ED and your boys may drop back down to their full size off of that amount...This is something only you can know, and something your going to have to find out on your own.

WRT to injection sites, HCG can be administered SubQ or IM, I always go subQ for the simple convenience of it. Hogg suggests that you go IM because of absorption time. (if your only getting 1000IU's per ML I think IM is the way to go) So if you choose to go IM then Delts, glutes and quads should be just fine for your injections. You'll be using a slin pin (most likely) so there's no real pain involved....If you choose to go subQ a good place is just to pinch a little bit of fat around your navel and inject there (you'll feel a slightly warm sensation) love handles are also a good place (Just like if you were shooting insulin )..

The time of day doesn't really matter, I prefer to keep a consistent injection schedule. Say I do my first shot in the am, in all likely hood I will continue all my shots in the am..and the same with pm shots. However if you miss a shot in the morning it's perfectly fine to do your next shot in the evening, it's what ever you decide.

I've done Clomid on the same day I've started HCG. I've started clomid when I finished HCG. If I don't do clomid on the same day I start HCG I'll do Nolvadex ..Although I would have to think arimidex may be better than Nolvadex after learning that arimidex increases IGF-1 levels. But I always keep Nolvadex on hand because I'm old school and I'm scared of Gyno. And Nolvadex has worked for me in the past to stop gyno...Again, if it ain't broke, don't **** with it!

HCG: 1000IU's Day After last AAS shot. Run for Ten days with Nolvadex @ 20mg ED throughout, if itchy or painful nipps start to appear try uping that dosage to 40mg ED or all they way up to 80mg ED.

Now I'm an old school clomid administrator also....If it ain't broke, (you allready know the second part of that) So I start high and taper off. A good time to take Clomid as at bed time.. this helps avoid a lot of the PMS feeling.. .you'll be asleep when these emotions peek...(If your pron to this that is... a lot of people take clomid and never experience any of the mood swings and wide range of emotions associated with clomid)

150mg Clomid day (Only)

day 2-8 100mg ED

day 9-16 50mg ED -

day 17-24 50mg EOD...

HCG 1000IU'S ED for ten days, 20mg Nolvadex ED along with the HCG, The day after my last HCG shot I start clomid therapy. This is just over a month long, so you should be able to start another cycle within 5-6 weeks after finishing your last. [assuming everything is back on line] If your doing longer cycles, you may need to administer clomid for another 10-21 days.

Phreezer

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Originally Posted by Hogg

You look at your cycle and try to assess your clearance period. Basically, if you are using say enanthate and eq, you can make a simple spreadsheet wherein you take each injection and cut it in half every 6 days.....so you would have a bunch of columns representing day 6,12,18,24,30,36,41 and the first entry under day 6 would be 500 corresponding to 500mg injected on day 6, under the day 12 column, the number would be 250, then 125 at 18, 62.5 at day 24, etc. The next line would be the next injection - say you injected another 500mg on day 12, so then day 18 would be 250, 125 on day 24 etc.

This is the simple way of calculating out how much gear is in your system and how long it will take to clear. You are basically treating test as a 6 day ester, some say 5, others say 7, split the difference and you will be pretty close.....we cant actually pinpoint the actual time since everybody metabolizes gear slightly different but certainly faster than rats for some strange reason.
Now, once you go through this process, you realize that if you were using a gram or more per week of test, it takes a little while for it to clear....actually, like 3-4 weeks to really clear. BUT, oddly enough, it seems that clearance occurs faster than this in reality. In practice, it would be difficult to determine the remainder of ester-bound test in vitro ...typically, they measure free T and T/epitestosterone which does not paint an accurate picture of the ester-bound testosterone remaining in your system.

So, on paper, 3-4 weeks, in practice, 'by feel', it seems like roughly 2-3 weeks for a gram of test. Ok, well, if we structure the clearance to cover such a discrepancy end to end, than we are likely to avoid the rut and retain a higher percentage of gains. So, let us say that we stop our cycle on week 16, then week 17 is the week to begin HCG. Personally, 500iu doesnt do a darn thing for me....I've tried it and perhaps for some, it works, for me, it takes 1000iu. After 5 days of using HCG, my testes drop and they begin to fill, by day 10, my testes are full and swinging. That is what HCG is suppose to do and that is why I upped from 500iu to 1000. Bear in mind, the 500iu number comes from an article on *-*** wherein **** ****** said "Take 500iu ed throughout your whole cycle" Well, somehow *** and people like ***** twisted that down to 2 weeks of 500iu. It doesnt work. Now, why not 1500iu ed??? Well, the initial contemporary estimates on the dosage that would cause damage to the leydig cells was 2000iu I believe, but then **** ****** lowered his number to 1500iu.....why? Because in truth, he really doesnt know. Bear in mind, a physician will consult the PDR and prescribe a 5000-7500iu shot to a man but usually, it is seldom that such is actually practiced....and HCG is seldom prescribed long term to increase T levels.....fertility is already shot in the ass and it becomes much simpler to prescribe testosterone gels and creams ...Anyway, so the 1000iu number is 'probably' safe.....I've used it and have had a response to both HCG and clomid after coming off numerous times which is a sign that my leydig cells are still operational....its anecdotal but I doubt you will find any AMA studies which establish the damage threshhold......hopefully I have argued my point for 1000iu adequately.

While running HCG for 10 days at 1000iu, we take nolvadex concurrently for 2 reasons - 1.) Since HCG aromatizes in the testes, we want to prevent gyno which can occur during HCG usage even with those who are able to take large amounts of test without anti-e and 2.) We want to shroud the htpa and block estrogen-induced inhibition.

The purpose of HCG is to stimulate the testes to full production by mimicking natural gonadotropin release. If the testes are atrophied, they tend to slowly regain the ability to produce normal levels of T with clomid alone. By using HCG, we are restoring the testes ability to resume full production....and our only problem remaining is to restore gonadotropin release after using HCG.

So,we run HCG for 10 days....we will come up 4 days short of a full 2 weeks. HCG is non-estrified and mimics LH. Its half life is thought to be hours though some cite the half life as being days. As the body typically secretes GnRH in pulses, numerous times throughout the day, it seems odd that LH would have a half life of days....simply put, it would mean that the body is capable of stacking up with endogenous T and we know that is not the case, we can crop endogenous T levels within hours by using certain substances. Anyway, so the 4 days is time for the HCG to clear and estrogen levels to subside. At the conclusion of this 4 day period, we are 3 weeks past our last injection of testosterone.....see how this all dovetails nicely together.

So, since we started the HCG week 17 and have completed the 10 days, plus the remaining 4 days of week 18, we are now on week 19. Time for clomid.
Personally, I use 100mg ed of clomid for 2 weeks, then 50mg ed for another 2 weeks. That stretches my total post cycle plan out to 6 weeks but my percentage of retained gains has been very good using this method. Since you ran clomid for weeks 19,20,21,and 22, you are now ready to think about either training naturally, or starting another cycle, or bridging. If you go completely natural, it is critical to use some type of cortisol blocker. Hulk raves about phosphatydine....or whatever the hell it is called. A light bridge of say 10mg ed of anavar or 200mg/wk of primobolan is another smart way to go. With such a light bridge, you can still maintain endogenous T production while warding off catabolism. GH and slin is another good idea though if you were going to conclude a steroid cycle and use GH during recovery, I'd start Gh and slin right after the HCG......absolutely.....because GH and insulin will not interfere with recovery of endogenous T and .....GH will cause you to retain a positive nitrogen balance, thereby warding off catabolism.
So that my friend is recovery in a nutshell

[Seattle Junk]

Human chorionic gonadotrophin is a strange hormone. Its only found in the placenta of pregnant women. For women it has fairly little use if any however, but to the male athlete it has one interesting property. It can mimic the action of luteinizing hormone (LH) in the body. LH is a pituitary hormone that is released and signals the manufacture of testosterone in the testicles. The sex hormones in the body work via a negative feedback system, where too much sex hormone (like anabolic androgenic steroids and estrogens) causes a signal to the brain to stop the release of LH. During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG .

Here's a good protocol that works for me. Start HCG when you notice your balls shrinking a little. Start with 500ius eod until the size comes back. Which is usually after 3-4 shots eod. Then go to 500ius every 4th-5th day until the end of your cycle - when the ester is out of your body. Then start PCT.

Low dose HCG shots spread out do not suppress your LH according to the info I've read.

[Housemoney]

..... thanks guys

[BG]

personally when using tren /deca i would use 500iu every 4th day throughout the cycle and for long assed cycles i would use 500iu every 5th day,that is how i use hcg throughout cycles..............

I do also, Then 7 days after last shot I run 1000iu's eod until I go through 10000iu's (with nolva).

[donpinn]

my next cycle of cyp and deca i am going to run hcg every 3rd day and run in pct

[Njectable]

my next cycle of cyp and deca i am going to run hcg every 3rd day and run in pct

hope ur not running clomid during ur PCT otherwise that would be an awful idea, HCG and clomid shouldn't be ran together.

[Smart@$$]

hope ur not running clomid during ur PCT otherwise that would be an awful idea, HCG and clomid shouldn't be ran together.

Why would clomid during pct be an awful idea?,

What makes you say hcg and clomid shouldnt be ran together? I am not in disagreement as it relates to running concurrently - just would like to know the reasoning for the statement.

[Swifto]

Why would clomid during pct be an awful idea?,

What makes you say hcg and clomid shouldnt be ran together? I am not in disagreement as it relates to running concurrently - just would like to know the reasoning for the statement.

Some say that you shouldnt run HCG /Clomid together. Though, I dont think it matters greatly on using Clomid/Nolva. Both SERM's and have the same action. Though, many choose Nolva from a cost point of view. If you can get Clomid a lot cheaper than Nolva, use it instead.