Deca questions.....

[buffmike]

Hey can someone help me. I have researched deca a great deal and it seems to be good. I have been cycling it for 6 weeks now. Week one to three i did 300 mgs, 4-6 450 mgs, and i plan on last 3 weeks doing 600 mgs, then dropping it to 300 mgs for a week. I have been taking chrysin with it (it was suggested by a steroid user) and I plan on taking phen free to burn a little fat towards the last 4 weeks of the cycle. I just wanna know am I risking any sexual side effects with the deca, or risking any hair loss. I am kind of paranoid about it. Any info or suggestions would be great! Thanks

[tiny234]

with the decca u can get decca dick or gyno (bitch tits) niether one is cool...u should be takin some kind of anit-estrogen...

[righton]

Well your risking deca dick for sure and if your one of the few( like me ) who are supseptable to deca (prgesterone) gyno there is nothing you can take(nolva,armidex,winny)that will stop that, you'll just have to prey that your chest doesn't become a pair of 36c tits!! J/k..you might wind up with a SMALL lump under your nip and probably not!!

[androplex]

hey buffmike, I am using 340 to 400 mg of Deca with 600 mg of test each week and I am in week 5 and I have no problems with deca dick or bitch tits (knock wood). I am using clomid but just talk to the doc and he switching (forgive me for using this word ) to teslac half a pill each day till end of 11 week cycle. Its up to your body and if its prone to gyno you should be on at least some form of anti e- just for peace of mind if you are on anything like test. You can get estrogen or progesterone gyno with deca as my doc has told me but the estrogen is less possible and very unlikely IMO. I think he has me on the anti e for the test I am taking mostly. I have a post that has some referrences sited about deca gyno. Do a search with my name and deca and you will be able to find them.

How are your gains? I have put on 15 lbs and loving it.

BTW also doing hGH to and its leaning me out I finally have my six packs. I get hit on in the gym all the time now its kinda hard to handle sometimes.


Good luck

[Pheedno]

Originally posted by righton
Well your risking deca dick for sure and if your one of the few( like me ) who are supseptable to deca (prgesterone) gyno there is nothing you can take(nolva,armidex,winny)that will stop that, you'll just have to prey that your chest doesn't become a pair of 36c tits!! J/k..you might wind up with a SMALL lump under your nip and probably not!!

Bromocriptine can be takin to lower prolactin levels thus helping with the progesterone gyno. Kind of hard to locate though.
Vitex is I believe can be located at nutrition stores and has been shown to help with that side as well. Very Cheap I've heard

[Pete235]

Originally posted by tiny234
..u should be takin some kind of anit-estrogen...

That will not help as gyno is caused by progesterone...not estrogen.

Please don't give advice unless you have experience OR a vast amount of research and clinical information to back your advice. I understand that you want to help and feel part of the group but this is not a game bro. Please think before posting.

[androplex]

btw buffmike I am also using, their goes that ugly word again, propecia so I have no worries about hair loss, it works for me.

[buffmike]

i put on about nine pounds, got some veins popping out. I like it....i was going to stop midway through the summer but now i dont know. Every week i feel a tad stronger. I had similar results taking anavar, creatine, and HMB a few months back. Strength wise that wasnt a bad combo. I would take the deca and the anavar its just that the prices r ridiculous for the anavar.

[androplex]

Buffmike, I really want to help you so here are a few of my posts that I did research on deca and gyno. I really hope they help but I know its a lot of reading.

http://www.muscletalk.co.uk/oestrogen-progesterone.asp



The presence of progesterone in male bodybuilders is through the use of the progestins, i.e. Oxymetholone (Anadrol, Anapolan50), Trenbolone (Finaject, Parabolan) and Nandrolone (Deca durabolin). A large problem for the bodybuilder is that the symptoms displayed by progesterone are identical to those of oestrogen, but the concurrent use of the typical anti-oestrogens appears to have no effect in controlling or treating it.

Progesterone tends to aggravate oestrogen induced gyno symptoms, making them more difficult to cure. We will look at some methods of avoiding or controlling them, bearing in mind that progesterone actually requires oestrogen presence to activate it in the first place.

Use with non-aromatising steroids
If progesterone requires oestrogen presence to activate it, then one method of avoiding this would be to use the progestins in stacks with non-aromatising steroids. Amazingly heavy androgenic steroids like Anadrol and Trenbolone are exceptionally mild and safe with regard to female characteristics when used in conjunction with non-aromatising steroids like Primobolan or Winstrol. This is great news for the gyno-prone individual who has previously avoided these stronger steroids for fear of gyno development. A simple stack of Anadrol and Primobolan will go along way to packing on some serious mass without the worry of developing gyno.

Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors
If aromatising steroids are to be included in the stack with progestagenic steroids, then the concurrent use of Competitive Aromatase Inhibitors, like Arimidex or Proviron, would also seem a sensible option. These can be incorporated to keep oestrogen levels low and avoid the activation of the progesterone. Although they will not help with already developed progesterone induced gyno, they can certainly be employed to avoid its development. As usual, the amount of aromatase inhibitor required increases with increasing dose of aromatising steroids used, but the best dose is still the minimum amount that can be got away with to produce the desired effect.

Winstrol
The use of Winstrol is also an effective method of controlling progesterone-induced gyno, as it is anti-progestagenic. An effective dose appears to be in the vicinity of 50mg eod (depot) or 30 to 35mg/day (tabs) although this dose may require increasing depending on the doses being employed in the stack.

One important point worth mentioning is, although generally the progestins do not aromatise, there is an exception to this rule: Deca, as well as being a progestin also aromatises, only very slightly, but nevertheless, still does to some extent. Although this is not nearly enough to cause the large majority any problems at all, for those extremely sensitive to gyno, this small amount of aromatisation to oestrogen can be enough of an elevation to activate the progesterone. Very few people are likely to suffer this, but we feel it is a point worth mentioning.


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Ok here is another point of view from

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/articl...tiestrogens.htm


Though most bodybuilders feel they know which steroids aromatize and which do not, sometimes the beliefs are in error. This is because progestogenic activity (activity like that of progesterone, another female hormone) is easily mistaken for estrogenic activity. Both hormones can cause bloating, and both can cause gyno. So AAS which are capable of activating not only the androgen receptor but also the progesterone receptor are often mistakenly assumed to aromatize. (Note: these androgens do not "convert to progesterone" but rather are themselves, without any change needed, able to act on that receptor.)

Nandrolone is proven to be a progestin. This fact is of clear importance in bodybuilding, because while moderate Deca-only use actually lowers estrogen levels as a consequence of reducing natural testosterone levels and thus allowing the aromatase enzyme less substrate to work with, Deca nonetheless can cause gyno in some individuals. Furthermore, just as progesterone will to a point increase sex drive in women, and then often decrease it as levels get too high, high levels of progestogenic steroids can kill sex drive in male bodybuilders, though there is a great deal of individual variability as to what is too much.

Incidentally, this progestogenic activity also inhibits LH production, and contrary to common belief, even small amounts of Deca are quite inhibitory, approximately as much so as the same amount of testosterone.

What relevance does this have to an article on antiestrogens? Well, antiestrogens can do nothing about these side effects of Deca.

The same appears to be true of oxymetholone (Anadrol) and of norethandrolone (Nilevar).

Methenolone (Primobolan), stanozolol (Winstrol), dromostanolone (Masteron), oxandrolone (Anavar), mesterolone (Proviron), stenbolone (Anatrofin), trenbolone, and DHT do not aromatize, and thus, antiestrogens are not relevant to these AAS either.

The steroids where aromatization is of particular concern are testosterone, methandrostenolone (Dianabol), boldenone (Equipoise), and to some extent fluoxymesterone (Halotestin). However the latter is usually used in doses low enough that aromatization is not an issue.

Among the prohormones, androstenedione is the principal offender with regard to aromatization, being readily converted to estrone. With androdiol, only that small portion which converts to testosterone can be converted further to estradiol, and that will occur only in the same percentage that other testosterone converts to estradiol.

Norandrodiol cannot convert directly to estrogen, and even after conversion to nandrolone is not readily converted to estrogen.

Norandrostenedione can be converted to estrone by aromatase, but is a very poor substrate for that enzyme. It can actually act as a competitive inhibitor, blocking better substrates such as androstenedione or testosterone. It is possible then, though unproven, that norandrostenedione might have some value as an aromatase inhibitor in bodybuilding. I do think, however, that the pharmaceuticals designed for the purpose should be assumed to be better choices.


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Oh No! It's Gyno!
What can you do about it?
by Nelson Montana



Anthony should have known better. If fact, he did. As an amateur competitive bodybuilder, Anthony was knowledgeable in all matters of performance enhancement. He knew how to use steroids in order to make the best possible gains with the least risk of side effects. In the past, he'd used short cycles in conservative dosages. He was fond of saying, "Nobody can tell me that 500 mg a week aren't enough." His progress was, by all accounts, impressive.

On the average, he put on an additional 10 pounds (7 of which he kept — post cycle) each time he did a cycle, and that wasn't bad at all. That's a total of almost 30 pounds of lean muscle tissue in a year's time! And the best part of it was that he never experienced any of the negative effects associated with steroid use. No crash. No noticeable suppression. No gyno. He was too smart for that. Or so he thought.

Since he wasn't particularly sensitive to potential side effects, Anthony decided it was time to "up the ante." He knew of several other competitors who pushed the envelope much harder than he had and suffered no problems. He also kept abreast of the latest information on steroid use and was familiar with the works of several authorities in the field. "Straight Testosterone is what the big boys take," was the suggestion of a renowned expert in pharmacology. Another infamous guru advised: "Try some Anadrol — it's not as bad as they say." An acquaintance that just moved up the ranks into the pros insisted, "Unless you're doing 1500 mg a week, you're wasting your time."

In the past, Anthony had always stuck with the milder stacks: Primobolan along with a little D-bol; Deca and Winstrol; Equipoise and Anavar. This time, however, he wanted to get the biggest bang for his buck.

Anthony decided on 600 mg of Testosterone cypionate a week along with 50 mg of Anadrol a day — still below what the consensus considered "moderate." He loved what he saw. Fast gains and vein-bursting pumps were noticeable within just a few days. He shot up 12 pounds in one week. After 14 days, he looked like a different person — huge, vascular and powerful. There was only one problem. He started to feel tenderness under his right nipple. He noticed a lump. "Damn!" he thought to himself. "I've got it. I've got gyno."

Suddenly, all the expert advice was meaningless. The only recourse was to abort the cycle. Unfortunately, the sudden cessation of androgens was too abrupt. His natural Testosterone levels were down and his estrogen was up. The gyno got worse. It was in both nipples now. He had developed tiny breasts. In an effort to look as manly as possible, Anthony was turning into a woman! It was tragically ironic. It was also poetically profound. Apparently, you can only pull the wool over Mother Nature's eyes for so long before she strikes back. In Anthony's case, payback was a bitch. Bitch tits, that is.

Anthony isn't alone. Each year, thousands of men develop gynecomastia. The technical definition is: "a benign growth or enlargement of the male breast tissue." Although gyno is more prevalent than ever, there are historical writings and artifacts showing that it's been a problem since the time of ancient Greek civilization. The term "gyne" comes from the Greek word meaning "woman" and "mastos" meaning "breast." Statues of the Pharaoh Seti depict a man with enlarged breasts. Aristotle, too, had reported encountering the problem and there's even documentation in the writings of Paulus of Aegineta (635—690 AD) which describes a primitive surgical procedure for the removal of gynecomastia. That must've hurt.

One reason why gyno reaches the advanced stages is because the early symptoms are barely noticeable. It may start as a slight itch in the nipple area. This can be easily ignored or overlooked since the sensation is not unlike when the nipples become irritated from either cold weather or wearing certain materials. In some cases, the lump, which develops under the pectoral, is often mistaken for muscle growth! No such luck.

There are several causes of gyno, all stemming from hormonal fluctuation. It's fairly common among older men. Once Testosterone levels begin to drop, the Testosterone/estradiol ratio can cause increased fatty tissue to develop under the breast. Combine that with looser skin, increased weight, and decreased muscle mass and the results aren't pretty. Those of you familiar with "Seinfeld" may remember the episode when George was horrified to see that his father had grown breasts! (Which prompted Kramer to invent the "Mansiere.") George was convinced he had witnessed his own future. He was right, since the propensity to develop gynecomastia is, to a great degree, genetically determined.

Gyno is also prevalent among adolescents. There are probably a couple of causes, but all stem from some sort of estrogen/androgen imbalance. Often, adolescents suffer from low T levels and thus have higher E/T ratios (estrogen to Testosterone). Additionally, some adolescents (and adults) have increased aromatase (the enzyme which turns T into estrogen) in peripheral tissue, and this is probably determined by genetics.

Another reason for adolescent gyno might be a direct cause of the buckets of hormones he starts producing at puberty. The Testosterone increases probably trigger an increase in aromatase activity, and the resultant increase in estrogen leads to gyno.

This is exactly what happens when anabolic steroids are introduced into the system. The body reacts, not unlike someone going through puberty. What is also common is the inability of the liver to handle the increased surge of Testosterone. In an effort to maintain balance, some of the androgen "spills over" and is converted to estrogen. The higher the level, as well as the more paid the rise of exogenous Testosterone, the greater the chances of aromatization.

Progesterone can quite possibly be another protagonist toward gyno. For instance, when athletes use a steroid like Deca or Anadrol, these drugs sometimes exert progestagenic activity at the progesterone receptor, and progesterone, as seen in females, can contribute to enlarged breasts. Consequently, it's not too large a deductive leap to assume that this progestagenic influence can contribute to the same problem in males.

Although it appears to be the scourge of youths, seniors and steroid users, anyone can get gyno. And your chances now are better than ever. Environmental toxins, pollution, heavy metals, radiation and even ions from computers have shown to decrease Testosterone and increase estrogen levels. Lack of natural sunlight can contribute to lowered hormone production. Alcohol consumption and marijuana use have also been linked to decreased Testosterone.

Diet is also a factor. Excess weight can cause "droopy pecs" (not really gyno, of course, but cosmetically undesirable, nonetheless). A diet low in fat (as in the case of many vegetarians) will cause a drop in natural occurring Testosterone. Certain foods, notably soy products, contain estrogen-like compounds, which can knock hormonal levels into an unfavorable ratio.

Probably the biggest instigator of gyno in the last few years is the use of prohormones. In the case of androstenedione, it converts not only to Testosterone, but more so into estrone, which is a mild estrogen. Oral prohormones also produce a sharp "spike" in Testosterone levels, which in turn causes some aromatization since the elevation occurs too rapidly for the body to handle them. And, since the body greets the increase in T levels by sending the balls on vacation, the use is left with decreased T levels. Add it all up and you have a triple whammied prescription for bigger boobs!

If you decide to use prohormones, it would make more sense to keep the elevation constant and controlled for a very short time. Prohormone expert Bill Roberts recommends hitting them hard and heavy for two weeks and two weeks only, and then getting off them.

Despite the increased potential for developing gyno, there are ways of fighting back. Let's take a look at some of the options.


Herbs and Nutritional Weapons in General

Herbology is a field which still has a big question mark connected to it. The research on herbs is sketchy at best. That's not to say that they're inert compounds, it's just that it's difficult to accurately determine the efficacy of a particular substance due to a host of variables. Herbs can work like drugs but with a far greater margin for error. For example, echinacea may have antibiotic properties, but its effectiveness is inexact. Penicillin, on the other hand is very precise. X amount will cure you — case closed. Still, you may want to try some herbal therapy for preventative measures against gyno and see for yourself how well you respond to them. Among the better options are....

Tribulus terrestris. You probably figured we'd get around to this sooner or later since Tribulus is the active ingredient in Tribex-500 a popular Biotest product. Be that as it may, the evidence supporting its effectiveness is the most strongly substantiated of the various herbal therapies. Keep in mind, among all the brands currently on the market, only Tribex contains the high concentrations of saponin extracts necessary to stimulate Luteinizing hormone enough to render an increase in Testosterone.

Avena sativa. Shown to increase libido and erectile function, Avena sativa may also increase Testosterone levels, which can help stabilize HPTA output after a steroid cycle. Incidentally, it's also contained in Tribex 500.

Mauira puama. Arguably effective in freeing "bound" Testosterone.

As far as nutritional weapons, the following may allow for some protection or, in some cases, partial relief of the problem:

Zinc. Zinc is vital for proper hormonal function. Although zinc deficiency, to the point where disease may occur is very rare, zinc levels in men are far lower than they were just 20 years ago. Besides the environmental issue, people today are exposed to greater stress levels. The soil in which much of our food is grown is depleted of naturally occurring nutrients. Supplemental zinc acts as an easy, economical safeguard for optimum Testosterone levels (thus helping to offset the chance of a Testosterone/estrogen imbalance).

Flax seed oil. Besides the increased essential fatty acids, (notably Omega 3's) flaxseeds contain lignans, which have been shown to have anti-tumor properties. What does this have to do with gyno? Gyno is, in a way, a benign tumor. Flaxseed oil should be a part of every bodybuilder's supplement regime for health, strength and prevention of gyno. Flaxseeds in their original state are also a great choice. (Great on cereal!)


Drugs

Our panel of experts, including Brock Strasser, Bill Roberts and Brian Batcheldor all agree that an anti-aromatase is a vital adjunct to any steroid cycle. The overwhelming favorite is...

Clomid. Intended for use as an ovarian stimulant, Clomid works in men as both an anti-estrogen and a Testosterone stimulator.

Among some of the other anti-estrogen drugs are....

Cyclofenil. Milder than Clomid but similar in efficacy.

Nolvadex. An anti breast cancer drug, which is also thought to lower IGF.

Arimidex. The latest addition used in the treatment of breast tumors. It works so well it may actually lower estrogen levels too much, leading to suppressed HDL (good cholesterol)

Teslac. Supposedly superior to Nolvadex but very expensive and virtually unobtainable.

Proviron. This isn't an anti-estrogen but a weak oral Testosterone. Some people claim that it helps maintain Testosterone levels when coming off a steroid cycle. The only way I see it helping is if the gyno was a temporary condition.

DHT. In one study conducted for 18 months on 40 men, twice daily application of DHT resulted in complete disappearance of gynecomastia in 10 patients; partial regression in 19; and no change in 11 after 4 to 20 weeks (Kuhn et al, 1983). The dosage used was 125 mg of DHT applied twice daily.

(Interestingly enough, the DHT was almost a complete failure in patients who had developed gyno as adolescents. It seems that the longer the condition persists, the more fibrous and thus, more resistant, the gyno becomes.)

Incidentally, most of these products aren't legally available to men for the purpose of preventing or alleviating gynecomastia.

Unfortunately, once you get gyno, if it's bad enough, it tends to be a permanent condition. Once that becomes the case, the only alternative is...


Surgery

The surgical removal of breast lumps is quickly becoming standard practice among professional bodybuilders. We spoke about this recent phenomenon with the man who has performed more gynecomastia operations than anyone else in the world, Dr. Bruce Nadler.

"After the gyno gets past a certain stage, surgical removal is the only option," says Dr. Nadler. He goes on to explain: "No medication can shrink the inflamed area. The good news is, once the operation is performed, there's less of a chance of re-developing gyno since the majority of the target tissue is removed."

Dr. Nadler sees men like our aforementioned friend "Anthony" every day. According to the good doctor, the first question out of their mouths is usually something like; "Doc, I got bitch tits! Am I fucked or what?!" The answer is yes! — unless you decide to do something about it. The condition can be reversed, but it'll cost ya. The total cost of an operation is around $6,000. (Light training can resume after 3 weeks.) If you decide to get the procedure, I would strongly recommend contacting Dr. Nadler.

A botched operation can leave you looking worse than you did when you had the gyno. When it comes to something as important as this, it isn't the time to bargain shop. If you've already developed gyno, Bruce Nadler is the man to see. For more information go to DrNadler.com.

Maybe you're lucky and have managed to avoid the malady thus far. But if you're even thinking about dabbling with anabolics, take all the proper precautions in order to keep the dreaded bitch tits at bay.

As the old saying goes: "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure." You can save yourself a ton of trouble if you avoid getting gyno in the first place. If you decide to use steroids, play it safe. Keep the hard androgens to the absolute minimum. After all, all the muscle in the world won't do you much good if you wind up sprouting tits! Think about it.


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