Hole in the 'Short Cycle' Theory.....

[vein-x]

Short cycles are generally 4-6 weeks run as short as 2 weeks sometimes. By 2 weeks, the HPTA is completely shut off regardless or duration/drugs/dosages.. it doesn't see you running it cycle, it sees no need for endogenous testosterone production. So it's safe to say at this point that 4 weeks or 14 weeks, by week 2 your NATURAL production is stopped. Yes? No? Let's assume yes and press on...

Now it's the beginning of week 3 and again, regardless of your drugs/dosage/duration, you are now not producing any natural testosterone. This is where I see the Short Cycle v Long Cycle split up, or branch off if you will.

Short Cycle advocates suggest running it another 2-3 weeks coming in at a grand total of 5 weeks. Long Cycle advocates well, there really is no upper boundry when it comes to length.

NOW... let's assume you're using the low dose/short cycle approach. The goal of any steroid cycle, among other things is to saturate your receptors. No matter whether you choose short cycle/low dose or long cycle/mid-high dose, your receptors will be saturated. Dosing is a whole different debate in and of itself (High Dose v Low Dose)

If you're running a SHORT cycle, your receptors will be saturated pretty well and you get in, grow, get out. Makes sense. You gain 5 lbs because you jacked your Test Levels up and introduced other AAS to the body, thus achieving a limited amount of hypertrophy. Again, makes sense.
Once the 4 week AAS administration period is over you run 3 weeks of PCT and you're off for = amount of time on. All a pretty simple idea - Don't alter the body's homeostasis in an exteme way, you don't have extreme sides.

BUT! Let's take a look at the Long Cycle/Mid-High Dose theory for a second here... If we were to run Test Enan/EQ/Deca @ 600/800/400mg EW(respectivly) most would consider us to be running a mid-dose/long duration cycle. I would agree. Here's where the Short Cycle advocates like to being the flaming... shutting down the HPTA for excessive amounts of time and 'over-flooding' the receptors...

Well, let's take a closer look: If we saturate the receptors, hell, if we OVER-saturate the receptors and some does end up going to waste, the end result is an anabolic environment with a nitrogen balance in the positive side. That's what any AAS cycle aims to acomplish, no? But I believe there are a few substances people over look when they jump, all too quickly, on the Short Cycle bandwagon - HCG and Clomid.
If we take a less-practical look at these too substances, you realize that, in a nutshell, their purpose is to help regulate the HPTA, sperm count, endogenous/natural testosterone etc.

*So what am I getting at with all this?*
Per each 6 weeks of cycling during a long-duration cycle you include a 2 week period of 'homeostasis regulation' (or at least an attempt to) so that the endocrine system still knows it has a job and the exogenous hormones (HCG & Clomid) help it remember to do so.

While I realize a long cycle is, indeed, worse for your health in the long run, you're still 'on-cycle' roughly the same amount of time. Don't believe me? Let's do the math together then...

Short Cycles
4 weeks on + 6 weeks off = 1 COMPLETE Short Cycle Phase = 10 weeks
52 weeks in a year / 10 weeks per complete cycle = 5.2
5.2 * 4 weeks on = ~21 weeks ON CYCLE

Long Cycles
16 weeks on + 19 weeks off (this is with the inclusion of PCT) = 35 weeks
52 weeks in a year / 35 weeks = ~1.5
~1.5 * 16 weeks on = ~24 weeks ON CYCLE


Now, the only other reason I really see short cycles being effective are for health reasons, but let's be honest.. using xxxmg of xxx is abusing no matter how you slice it, so it'll be unhealthy one way or the other. Granted, it is healthier to run short cycles, I won't deny that. I will say that there are drugs for the side-effects felt on longer cycles that work pretty well considering they're normally meant for patients that actually need these medications to LIVE...

But please, besides being a slightly 'healthier' alternative in terms of lipids and BP, tell me how Short Cycles are that much better than Long Cycles? I'm not trying to sound like a sarcastic asshole here. I'm simply looking at things objectively, like the healthy mind should...

[mkrulic]

interesting read, I'm sticking to my short runs. I do about this on every run:
1 gram of test
.6 gram of tren
.3 gram of deca
and I've never done pct. I feel I recover good and I dont loose much because by the time I start to loose gains its time to get back on.
I really boils down to how fast you react to aas. If you react quick, you will reach saturation in your gains quick. if that's the case its better to get off quick.

[vein-x]

interesting read, I'm sticking to my short runs. I do about this on every run:
1 gram of test
.6 gram of tren
.3 gram of deca
and I've never done pct. I feel I recover good and I dont loose much because by the time I start to loose gains its time to get back on.
I really boils down to how fast you react to aas. If you react quick, you will reach saturation in your gains quick. if that's the case its better to get off quick.

And I understand you 100%.

I believe that if Clenbuterol, Arimidex, Clomd & HCG got more attention (as well as a couple others) more people would realize the Short Cycle thing, while it does work, isn't this new GOD LIKE way to 'cheat' in cycling..

There's a lot more to cycling than the old school, cookie-cutter ideals of |ON CYCLE| --> |OFF CYCLE| with nothing else at all inbetween, period, cut and dry, no questions asked. People need to think out of the box a little more than they are. Hell, that's how bodybuilding chemistry took off, thinking outside the box and realizing 'Hey.. if 100mg of Deca-Durabolin help burn and severe injury victims gain back most, if not all, of their mass and tissues... What could 400mg do??'

[mkrulic]

And I understand you 100%.

I believe that if Clenbuterol, Arimidex, Clomd & HCG got more attention (as well as a couple others) more people would realize the Short Cycle thing, while it does work, isn't this new GOD LIKE way to 'cheat' in cycling..

There's a lot more to cycling than the old school, cookie-cutter ideals of |ON CYCLE| --> |OFF CYCLE| with nothing else at all inbetween, period, cut and dry, no questions asked. People need to think out of the box a little more than they are. Hell, that's how bodybuilding chemistry took off, thinking outside the box and realizing 'Hey.. if 100mg of Deca-Durabolin help burn and severe injury victims gain back most, if not all, of their mass and tissues... What could 400mg do??'

yea I was going to try arimidex after this one. cant do clomid cause I get the sides. one thing though, I totally plateau on gains after 6 to 7 weeks. I find its better to get off then get poor gains. I think it really comes down to how fast you react to aas. just my humble opionin

[AnabolicBoy1981]

interesting read, I'm sticking to my short runs. I do about this on every run:
1 gram of test
.6 gram of tren
.3 gram of deca
and I've never done pct. I feel I recover good and I dont loose much because by the time I start to loose gains its time to get back on.
I really boils down to how fast you react to aas. If you react quick, you will reach saturation in your gains quick. if that's the case its better to get off quick.

no pct? interesting. do you shoot hcg throughout though? is that test prop or what?

[1buffsob]

Why would you ever run a "low dose/short cycle"? If you're gonna do a short cycle, you need to do it high dosed.

As for the real reasons to run a short/HIGH dosed cycle, I think it falls a lot onto the individual. Some people will have a much harder time recovering the longer a cycle is. By proper priming procedures, proper compounds, and proper doses, they can achieve the same results from short cycle as they could with a moderate dosed/ longer cycle. The only difference would be they have an easier time recovering durring PCT.

I don't believe short cycles were a way to "cheat" by getting in more cycles per year. I think they were designed for people that have difficult times recovering in PCT. Short cycles are not for everyone.

[vein-x]

Why would you ever run a "low dose/short cycle"? If you're gonna do a short cycle, you need to do it high dosed.

I'm sorry bro, I meant lose dose per injection. Understandably confusing...

Short cycles are not for everyone.

Funny as this may sound.. that cleared up 95% of my questions. I was under the impression the Short Cycle Theory was about to overtake all and even some IFBB Pro's were onto this new, 'radical' way of cycling.

Turns out it's nothing more than an alternate for those who are 'bored' with conventional cycling practices and want a slightly more healthy and less risky method.

Thanks buff

[Hellmaskbanned]

I like the idea of running an low suppresive oral for 4 weeks at a high dosage then taking around 4 weeks off to get levels back to normal, then repeat this cycle for around 5 months........

For some reason I like this idea.......Would the gains slow and deminish from the body getting use to this ya think or not?

Plz, nobody try to bash it with oral toxicity, cholesterol etc.....

[1buffsob]

I'm sorry bro, I meant lose dose per injection. Understandably confusing...



Funny as this may sound.. that cleared up 95% of my questions. I was under the impression the Short Cycle Theory was about to overtake all and even some IFBB Pro's were onto this new, 'radical' way of cycling.

Turns out it's nothing more than an alternate for those who are 'bored' with conventional cycling practices and want a slightly more healthy and less risky method.

Thanks buff

Although it's far from radical, it's smart.

If you're the type of person who fails to see gains after 6-7 weeks, and a lot of people are like that, why would you continue to run the full 12-16 weeks? By shortening up the cycle length, you have a better chance of making it out of PCT with more of your gains. If this is the case for you, you could, hypothetically, make more gains using shorter cycles than with the more conventional length cycles.

As for pro's using this type of cycling, you have to realise that the majority will never even come off cycle. So making it through PCT is not a concern for them. Their only reason to short cycle would be that they stop growing after a certain amount of time. If they didn't, they'd all be 800lbs by now. So they'll go on a small cruise in between the heavy burst cycles, which will usually consist of very heavy doses in a relatively short amount of time. Priming the body is the key in this case, as the simple idea of just maxing out your dosages isn't enough to see substansial gains.

[Hellmaskbanned]

"Short cycles are generally 4-6 weeks run as short as 2 weeks sometimes. By 2 weeks, the HPTA is completely shut off regardless or duration/drugs/dosages.. it doesn't see you running it cycle, it sees no need for endogenous testosterone production. So it's safe to say at this point that 4 weeks or 14 weeks, by week 2 your NATURAL production is stopped. Yes? No? Let's assume yes and press on..."


I like short cycle ideas with suppressive compounds, but when useing them your not going to get shutdown.....Just suppressed.

BUT I think If your going to be shutdown you might aswell make it a longer cycle and get more out of it IMO.

[mileliofthard]

Steroid Receptor downregulation does not exist.

Saturation of the Androgen recpetors in the Hypothalamus CAN occur, which is what causes HPTA SHUTDOWN, an entirely different issue.

[mileliofthard]

[QUOTE=Hellmask]"Short cycles are generally 4-6 weeks run as short as 2 weeks sometimes. By 2 weeks, the HPTA is completely shut off regardless or duration/drugs/dosages.. it doesn't see you running it cycle, it sees no need for endogenous testosterone production. So it's safe to say at this point that 4 weeks or 14 weeks, by week 2 your NATURAL production is stopped. Yes? No? Let's assume yes and press on..."
[QUOTE]

NOT TRUE.*

SOME STEROIDS DO NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

[1buffsob]

I like the idea of running an low suppresive oral for 4 weeks at a high dosage then taking around 4 weeks off to get levels back to normal, then repeat this cycle for around 5 months........

For some reason I like this idea.......Would the gains slow and deminish from the body getting use to this ya think or not?

Plz, nobody try to bash it with oral toxicity, cholesterol etc.....

That would depend on what types of orals, along with the dosages, and more importantly, how the individual responds to oral only cycles.

There are only a few "low suppresive" orals out there, and at high dosages, they are no longer "low suppresive". haha So I see that being an immediate problem in your train of thought. As for the body getting used to it, most definately. I would think you'd have to up your dosages considerably in each cycle to keep seeing results, or at least moving on to more harsh orals. In that case, you would be defeating the purpose of using low supressive gear in the first place, as you'd still be shut down.

[vein-x]

NOT TRUE.*

SOME STEROIDS DO NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Brilliant call................ except for the fact that 90% of short-cycle protocols involve Testosterone Propionate @ upwards of 400mg week..

Nice effort though.

[mileliofthard]

The Hypothalamus has Androgen, Estrogen, and Progesterone receptors.

Each and EVERY anabolic steroid affects these receptors DIFFERENTLY.

Some steroids affect ALL receptors, while some only affect ONE type of receptor, while others have very little effect on ANY of these receptors.

UNDERSTANDING WHICH steroids affect which receptors, and to WHAT DEGREE, will FULLY enable the steroid user to COMPLETELY and systematically AVOID HPTA SHUTDOWN!

By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.

Steroids that cause an OVERSATURATION(too many receptors activated) of these various hormone receptors, WILL CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Steroids that DO NOT CAUSE an OVERSATURATION of ANY of these various hormone receptors, will NOT cause SHUTDOWN!

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate ESTROGEN receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate PROGESTERONE receptors, to varying degrees:

Nandrolone
Trenbolone
Oxymetholone

The Following drugs either DIRECTLY or INDIRECTLY activate Androgen receptors, to varying degrees:

Testosterone
Methandrostenolone
Mathandriol
Oxymetholone
Nandrolone
Boldenone
Trenbolone
Halotestin
Oxandrolone
Stanzolol
Chlorodehydromethltestosterone
Methyltestosterone
Methenolone...
(ALL AAS*)

As we can see, the steroids that cause HPTA SHUTDOWN either OVERSATURATE ONE SPECIFIC receptor, or they activate too many TOTAL receptors(Androgen/Estrogen/Progesterone)

For instance, Trenbolone causes HPTA SHUTDOWN because it OVERSATURATES BOTH, the ANDROGEN and the PROGESTERONE receptors.

Testosterone causes SHUTDOWN because it converts to ESTROGEN and DHT, therefore, it oversaturates the Androgen/Estrogen receptors.

As we can ALSO SEE, the steroids that DO NOT cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA, do NOT oversaturate ANY of the different hormone receptors, and thus, do NOT cause SHUTDOWN.

Methenolone(Primobolan) does not possess ANY Estrogenic or Progestational ACTIVITY WHATSOEVER. It does, by virtue of being an anabolic steroid, posses a SMALL Androgenic component. Because it lacks ANY ESTROGENIC/PROGESTATIONAL component, and it lacks a strong Androgenic component, it WILL NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN!

Oxandrolone(Anavar) posseses NO Estrogenic/Progestational component either. AND, it also lacks a strong androgenic component. Thus, Anavar will NOT cause shutdown.


By understanding WHICH steroids cause SHUTDOWN and which steroids do NOT, we can formulate a perfect EXTENDED CYCLE.

*It must also be noted, that ANY steroid in LARGE enough DOSAGES for long enough DURATIONS, can cause SHUTDOWN of the HPTA.


NOT ALL ANDROGENS CAUSE SHUTDOWN*

"Shutdown", is defined by a COMPLETE inhibition of the Pituitary/Testes, resulting in a TOTAL cessation of endogenous androgen production.

SOME androgens will only SUPPRESS endogenous androgen production, resulting in a DECREASED testosterone level, but not a complete shutdown. (Tbol, Var, Wistrol, EQ, Dianabol, masteron, proviron, halo, primo)

Very Androgenic/Progestenic/Estrogenic steroids(Tren, Deca, Drol, Test) cause a COMPLETE shutdown of endogenous hormone production.

The distinction between SUPRESSION and SHUTDOWN is utterly important, as steroids that cause LESS supression of endogenous hormones will allow for greater retention of gains upon ending the cycle, and a quicker, easier PCT.

[1buffsob]

NOT TRUE.*

SOME STEROIDS DO NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Please leave ross. You're just going to get banned anyway, with all your posts deleted. Tough shit. Deal with it. The way you keep coming back is really quite sad/pathetic.

[Hellmaskbanned]

[QUOTE=mileliofthard][QUOTE=Hellmask]"Short cycles are generally 4-6 weeks run as short as 2 weeks sometimes. By 2 weeks, the HPTA is completely shut off regardless or duration/drugs/dosages.. it doesn't see you running it cycle, it sees no need for endogenous testosterone production. So it's safe to say at this point that 4 weeks or 14 weeks, by week 2 your NATURAL production is stopped. Yes? No? Let's assume yes and press on..."

NOT TRUE.*

SOME STEROIDS DO NOT CAUSE SHUTDOWN.

Are you quoteing my quote which i quoted from him?!?


I know some suppress while others shutdown!

[mileliofthard]

Brilliant call................ except for the fact that 90% of short-cycle protocols involve Testosterone Propionate @ upwards of 400mg week..

Nice effort though.

You can DEFINITELY design a short NON-supressive cycle, but a LONGER one would be WAY more effective.

Short cycles are not very effective.

Quality muscle-tissue is the result of extended anabolic/androgenic support.

Brief intervals of steroid use may be of SOME benefit to a novice, but to a SERIOUS bodybuilder, these protocols are a JOKE.

[mileliofthard]

[QUOTE=Hellmask][QUOTE=mileliofthard]

"Short cycles are generally 4-6 weeks run as short as 2 weeks sometimes. By 2 weeks, the HPTA is completely shut off regardless or duration/drugs/dosages.. it doesn't see you running it cycle, it sees no need for endogenous testosterone production. So it's safe to say at this point that 4 weeks or 14 weeks, by week 2 your NATURAL production is stopped. Yes? No? Let's assume yes and press on..."




Are you quoteing my quote which i quoted from him?!?


I know some suppress while others shutdown!

Well said!

A good brother.

[vein-x]

You can DEFINITELY design a short NON-supressive cycle, but a LONGER one would be WAY more effective.

Short cycles are not very effective.

Quality muscle-tissue is the result of extended anabolic/androgenic support.

Brief intervals of steroid use may be of SOME benefit to a novice, but to a SERIOUS bodybuilder, these protocols are a JOKE.

While he may not be the most liked bro on the boards he's got a point here...

I agree with him that for the most part, short-cycles aren't very effective and fvcking with blood levels going up and down and up and down and up.. well you get the idea.. isn't too much more healthy than a long cycle with constantly elevated androgens...

[mileliofthard]

While he may not be the most liked bro on the boards he's got a point here...

I agree with him that for the most part, short-cycles aren't very effective and fvcking with blood levels going up and down and up and down and up.. well you get the idea.. isn't too much more healthy than a long cycle with constantly elevated androgens...

Amen.

[Hellmaskbanned]

LOL ross

What do you think about the idea of running Lets say Var or tbol 4 weeks on and around 6 weeks off for a time frame of 5 months?

Do you think your Natty test would just about fully recover during each "break" and that each 4 weeks "on" even down the road would just suppress alowing you to continue to make and keep gains?

[mileliofthard]

LOL ross

What do you think about the idea of running Lets say Var or tbol 4 weeks on and around 6 weeks off for a time frame of 5 months?

Do you think your Natty test would just about fully recover during each "break" and that each 4 weeks "on" even down the road would just suppress alowing you to continue to make and keep gains?

Risk vs Reward.

Do it the RIGHT way, using the Extended Cycle Protocol.

You should run the Var/Turinabol combo like this;

BULKER:

Weeks 1-10: Aromasin, 20mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Propionate
Weeks 1-8: Turinabol, 60mgs ED
Weeks 8-12: Anavar, 50mgs ED

*Shutdown ONLY occurs during weeks 1-8.

Or

Weeks 1-10: Aromasin, 20mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Propionate
Weeks 1-8: Turinabol, 60mgs ED
Weeks 1-12: Anavar, 50mgs ED

CUTTER:

*No SHUTDOWN occurs at all.

Weeks 1-8: Masteron, 100mgs EOD
Weeks 1-8: Turinabol, 50mgs ED
Weeks 1-12: Anavar, 50mgs ED
*Weeks 1-12: Proviron, if needed.

[Hellmaskbanned]

Risk vs Reward.

Do it the RIGHT way, using the Extended Cycle Protocol.

You should run the Var/Turinabol combo like this;

BULKER:

Weeks 1-10: Aromasin, 20mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Propionate
Weeks 1-8: Turinabol, 60mgs ED
Weeks 8-12: Anavar, 50mgs ED

*Shutdown ONLY occurs during weeks 1-8.

Or

Weeks 1-10: Aromasin, 20mgs ED
Weeks 1-8: Testosterone Propionate
Weeks 1-8: Turinabol, 60mgs ED
Weeks 1-12: Anavar, 50mgs ED

CUTTER:

*No SHUTDOWN occurs at all.

Weeks 1-8: Masteron, 100mgs EOD
Weeks 1-8: Turinabol, 50mgs ED
Weeks 1-12: Anavar, 50mgs ED
*Weeks 1-12: Proviron, if needed.

You got off the topic....

Masteron Noway jose. Anavar, umm probly not either.

But thats ok you tried. lol

Tbol / Var....same gains as tbol only it seemed.

So Would I be right thinking my HPTA would be back 100% after a 4 week on 6 week off Tbol run for 5 months? BACK 100% after EACH 6 week break that is?

Im just cuirous to this idea as I never said I would try it just using this as an example with a suppressive compound used in short runs throughout a long period.....

[mileliofthard]

Meaning, by the time you ENTER PCT(unless you OPT to cruise with either Dianaviron, Anaviron, Or Primovar), you will already have BEGAN HPTA RECOVERY.

[mileliofthard]

You got off the topic....

Masteron Noway jose. Anavar, umm probly not either.

But thats ok you tried. lol

Tbol / Var....same gains as tbol only it seemed.

So Would I be right thinking my HPTA would be back 100% after a 4 week on 6 week off Tbol run for 5 months? BACK 100% after EACH 6 week break that is?

Im just cuirous to this idea as I never said I would try it just using this as an example with a suppressive compound used in short runs throughout a long period.....

Yes, you can use "Primovar", or "Turinavar" for 4 weeks on, 6 weeks off with MINIMAL supression but also MINIMAL gains.

You might as well use Primovar(Primo/Var) or Turinavar(TBOL/VAR) for FULL cycle durations(8-12 weeks) and then come off, as the degree of HPTA inhibition would be almost exactly the same, but with DOUBLE--maybe TRIPLE the gains.

[mileliofthard]

After all, this is why I invented Turinavar and Primovar.

NON-supressive cycle stacks.

They work.

Can't forget about Dianaviron either..(Dianabol/Anavar)

[1buffsob]

You can DEFINITELY design a short NON-supressive cycle, but a LONGER one would be WAY more effective.

Short cycles are not very effective.

Quality muscle-tissue is the result of extended anabolic/androgenic support.

Brief intervals of steroid use may be of SOME benefit to a novice, but to a SERIOUS bodybuilder, these protocols are a JOKE.

May I ask, when was the last time you ran a heavy dosed/short cycle? Ross, although you may not be stupid, you're arrogant. You don't have the ability to entertain a thought that doesn't agree with your CURRENT frame of mind. And for that reason, I don't respect you.

[HORSE~]

Bye Bye Ross!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mileliofthard]

Just so you ALL know--

I was NEVER legally banned.

As we know, staff changes have been made.

[1buffsob]

After all, this is why I invented Turinavar and Primovar.

NON-supressive cycle stacks.

They work.

Can't forget about Dianaviron either..(Dianabol/Anavar)

Haha. "I invented..." You sound like Al Gore. Get off your power trip man.

[1buffsob]

[quote=mileliofthard]Just so you ALL know--

I was NEVER legally banned.

As we know, staff changes have been made.

quote]

Legally banned.

Doesn't matter what you think. Rules are rules. So you're gone.

[1buffsob]

Thank god.

[Booz]

keep this on track otherwise it will be locked..............

[oswaldosalcedo]

You can DEFINITELY design a short NON-supressive cycle, but a LONGER one would be WAY more effective.


Short cycles are not very effective *

Quality muscle-tissue is the result of extended anabolic/androgenic support. *

Brief intervals of steroid use may be of SOME benefit to a novice, but to a SERIOUS bodybuilder, these protocols are a JOKE.

*not so .
*woooooooooooooow! astonishing statement!

[one8nine]

not everyone who short cycles follows time on + pct = time off

for me and a few others i know time on = time off + pct, or maybe time on is a little longer than time off + pct

i know this isnt the equation that is parroted, i know everyone likes to repeat time on + pct = time off cause it sounds good but blood work is my green or red light

[one8nine]

(for my arguement i would like to point out that when i talk about short cycles it is with the assumption that short esters are being used, and for long cycles, long esters)

also i would like to add this:

i have no proof or studies or paper work or anything but the fact that it makes sense to me

i believe in shocking your body, in the same way that when you are cutting you need cheat meals, being on heavy then pct then nothing all in a short period is more shocking than a version of the same with more extended periods of each

also think of this:
long cycles you are taking 5-8 weeks to reach your peak in blood levels, slowly building up
short cycles you hit peak in 5-10 days and enjoy more stable blood levels (although you could inject ED with long esters in long cycles, but thats not so common)

also with long cycle you have 2 or 3 WEEKS until you begin pct, just waiting for levels to slowly drop
while with short cycles pct can begin 2-3 days after


did you account for these 2-3 weeks between final injection and pct into your calculations? or do you considder this to be "on cycle"

[1buffsob]

(for my arguement i would like to point out that when i talk about short cycles it is with the assumption that short esters are being used, and for long cycles, long esters)

also i would like to add this:

i have no proof or studies or paper work or anything but the fact that it makes sense to me

i believe in shocking your body, in the same way that when you are cutting you need cheat meals, being on heavy then pct then nothing all in a short period is more shocking than a version of the same with more extended periods of each

also think of this:
long cycles you are taking 5-8 weeks to reach your peak in blood levels, slowly building up
short cycles you hit peak in 5-10 days and enjoy more stable blood levels (although you could inject ED with long esters in long cycles, but thats not so common)

also with long cycle you have 2 or 3 WEEKS until you begin pct, just waiting for levels to slowly drop
while with short cycles pct can begin 2-3 days after


did you account for these 2-3 weeks between final injection and pct into your calculations? or do you considder this to be "on cycle"

This would make much more sense if you were talking about esters, not cycles.

also think of this:
long ESTERS you are taking 5-8 weeks to reach your peak in blood levels, slowly building up
short ESTERS you hit peak in 5-10 days and enjoy more stable blood levels (although you could inject ED with long esters in long cycles, but thats not so common)

also with long ESTERS you have 2 or 3 WEEKS until you begin pct, just waiting for levels to slowly drop
while with short ESTERS pct can begin 2-3 days after

Being that many short cycles are composed of long esters, and many long cycles are composed of short esters, I don't think your arguement is very sound.

[vein-x]

also with long cycle you have 2 or 3 WEEKS until you begin pct, just waiting for levels to slowly drop
while with short cycles pct can begin 2-3 days after


did you account for these 2-3 weeks between final injection and pct into your calculations? or do you considder this to be "on cycle"

Not at all.. this is what you do:

Sample Cycle
Weeks 1-12: Testosterone Enanthate @ 500mg/week
Weeks 1-5: Dianabol @ 40mg/day
Weeks 13-15: Testosterone PROPIONATE @ 50mg/EoD
Weeks 16-19: PCT

Using the Test Prop bridge between ON-CYCLE and PCT you're levels slowly taper down with almost ZERO time off of the cycle until you're ready to start PCT.

[rock75]

Short cycles are generally 4-6 weeks run as short as 2 weeks sometimes. By 2 weeks, the HPTA is completely shut off regardless or duration/drugs/dosages.. it doesn't see you running it cycle, it sees no need for endogenous testosterone production. So it's safe to say at this point that 4 weeks or 14 weeks, by week 2 your NATURAL production is stopped. Yes? No? Let's assume yes and press on...

Now it's the beginning of week 3 and again, regardless of your drugs/dosage/duration, you are now not producing any natural testosterone. This is where I see the Short Cycle v Long Cycle split up, or branch off if you will.

Short Cycle advocates suggest running it another 2-3 weeks coming in at a grand total of 5 weeks. Long Cycle advocates well, there really is no upper boundry when it comes to length.

NOW... let's assume you're using the low dose/short cycle approach. The goal of any steroid cycle, among other things is to saturate your receptors. No matter whether you choose short cycle/low dose or long cycle/mid-high dose, your receptors will be saturated. Dosing is a whole different debate in and of itself (High Dose v Low Dose)

If you're running a SHORT cycle, your receptors will be saturated pretty well and you get in, grow, get out. Makes sense. You gain 5 lbs because you jacked your Test Levels up and introduced other AAS to the body, thus achieving a limited amount of hypertrophy. Again, makes sense.
Once the 4 week AAS administration period is over you run 3 weeks of PCT and you're off for = amount of time on. All a pretty simple idea - Don't alter the body's homeostasis in an exteme way, you don't have extreme sides.

BUT! Let's take a look at the Long Cycle/Mid-High Dose theory for a second here... If we were to run Test Enan/EQ/Deca @ 600/800/400mg EW(respectivly) most would consider us to be running a mid-dose/long duration cycle. I would agree. Here's where the Short Cycle advocates like to being the flaming... shutting down the HPTA for excessive amounts of time and 'over-flooding' the receptors...

Well, let's take a closer look: If we saturate the receptors, hell, if we OVER-saturate the receptors and some does end up going to waste, the end result is an anabolic environment with a nitrogen balance in the positive side. That's what any AAS cycle aims to acomplish, no? But I believe there are a few substances people over look when they jump, all too quickly, on the Short Cycle bandwagon - HCG and Clomid.
If we take a less-practical look at these too substances, you realize that, in a nutshell, their purpose is to help regulate the HPTA, sperm count, endogenous/natural testosterone etc.

*So what am I getting at with all this?*
Per each 6 weeks of cycling during a long-duration cycle you include a 2 week period of 'homeostasis regulation' (or at least an attempt to) so that the endocrine system still knows it has a job and the exogenous hormones (HCG & Clomid) help it remember to do so.

While I realize a long cycle is, indeed, worse for your health in the long run, you're still 'on-cycle' roughly the same amount of time. Don't believe me? Let's do the math together then...

Short Cycles
4 weeks on + 6 weeks off = 1 COMPLETE Short Cycle Phase = 10 weeks
52 weeks in a year / 10 weeks per complete cycle = 5.2
5.2 * 4 weeks on = ~21 weeks ON CYCLE

Long Cycles
16 weeks on + 19 weeks off (this is with the inclusion of PCT) = 35 weeks
52 weeks in a year / 35 weeks = ~1.5
~1.5 * 16 weeks on = ~24 weeks ON CYCLE


Now, the only other reason I really see short cycles being effective are for health reasons, but let's be honest.. using xxxmg of xxx is abusing no matter how you slice it, so it'll be unhealthy one way or the other. Granted, it is healthier to run short cycles, I won't deny that. I will say that there are drugs for the side-effects felt on longer cycles that work pretty well considering they're normally meant for patients that actually need these medications to LIVE...

But please, besides being a slightly 'healthier' alternative in terms of lipids and BP, tell me how Short Cycles are that much better than Long Cycles? I'm not trying to sound like a sarcastic asshole here. I'm simply looking at things objectively, like the healthy mind should...

a very educated post, only problem I have running HCG & clomid in the middle is it really has the potential to **** your natural system up because you are telling it to shut down while you are adding extra test to your sytem, then you are telling it to start back up, then shut off again and then start up again with pct....too many on and offs - keep em short, get your gains and get off, then tell it to start working again, let it work for a cpl wks then go again...