Anti-E during a Test Cycle: always or maybe?

**realjo1000** · 10-06-2006, 10:10 PM

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**anaBROLIC** · 10-06-2006, 11:34 PM

if you spot the gyno early u can fight it. thats why alot of guys will mention that they keep nolva on hand.

**skipp** · 10-06-2006, 11:38 PM

I say wait, but like anaBrolic, definatly have something (or 2 things) on hand. A SERM and AI would be optimal.

**ascendant** · 10-06-2006, 11:54 PM

well, the problem with waiting for gyno is sometimes by the time you notice, it may be too late. had a buddy who got really bad gyno (still does actually), and he never had any tenderness or anything. by the time he noticed the growth of his man-boobs, it was already too late. now, seems like surgery is his only option. not even letro helped.

as far as taking letro or nolva during a cycle, both are horrible choices IMO. letro is just way too strong and suppresses the estrogen levels way too much, even at very low doses. nolva has issues with, if i remember correctly, inhibiting igf production, which obviously inhibits an optimal anabolic environment in the body.

ideally, if you're going up to about 400mg/wk or more of test, i'd personally advise taking either aromasin or arimidex at very low doses (ex, arimidex at .25mg). this will help keep those cheeks from looking like chipmunks, keep the gyno away, keep you having a harder look throughout the cycle, and will even help get those natty test levels back to normal quicker near the end of the cycle. course hcg would be a better choice during cycle for that intent, but i don't think a moderate dose of an anti-e would hurt.

decreasing estrogen levels moderately shouldn't affect gains too dramatically. however, if estrogen levels get too high, your body will try to retain more bf as a womans does. though this may help you gain more weight and may be partially responsible for those who say they gain more without anti-e's, it's obviously not a favorable weight gain. on the other hand, suppressing the estrogen levels too dramatically can certainly hinder your progress as well considering a certain level of estrogen is necessary for maximum growth as well.

best advice i can give is just do anti-e's at a very moderate dose, possibly arimidex at even a little below .25mg/day, and you should be good to go.

**realjo1000** · 10-07-2006, 12:21 AM

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**redwizza** · 10-07-2006, 12:35 AM

Originally Posted by realjo1000

hi everyone,

some people advocate anti-Es like letro and nolva during test cycles to prevent gyno.

some people say wait for gyno before doing it.

others say that would be too late.

any thoughts guys?

i know anti-Es are not good for HDL, LDL ratios and of course it's better not to use them if one doesn't need them. But the question is:

is it too late to do anti-Es once signs of gyno appears?

how bad are anti-Es to HDL/LDL and gains? Is it so bad that one should risk getting gyno?

thanks guys!

use nolvadex at 20-40 mg per day for 2-3 weeks or until symptoms subside, when symptoms occur. part of the especially great gains of test is the rise in estrogen levels....so u eliminate that u eliminate the advantage.

**vitor** · 10-07-2006, 02:03 AM

I have never seen any evidence or heard a good explanation that elevated estrogen levels will result in better gains... Only more scaleweight(b/c of water-retinsion) which people mistakenly assume is muscle gains.

On the contrary, Estrogen "might" limit the number of androgen recepter in each cell, so there will be fewer open recepters for a aas to bind to. Its possible that Nolva can reverse this, and an AI will take care of the problem from the beginning.

"Sometimes" its possible to reverse gyno if caught early, but only the lump type. If actual breast-tissue has developed, then surgery is the only option.

**redwizza** · 10-07-2006, 04:43 AM

Originally Posted by vitor

I have never seen any evidence or heard a good explanation that elevated estrogen levels will result in better gains... Only more scaleweight(b/c of water-retinsion) which people mistakenly assume is muscle gains.

On the contrary, Estrogen "might" limit the number of androgen recepter in each cell, so there will be fewer open recepters for a aas to bind to. Its possible that Nolva can reverse this, and an AI will take care of the problem from the beginning.

"Sometimes" its possible to reverse gyno if caught early, but only the lump type. If actual breast-tissue has developed, then surgery is the only option.

estrogen has a direct impact on GH and IGF1 and insulin sensitivity of the body...all in a positive way. eliminating estrogen WILL cause problems. if your diet is clean and u do perform cardio extensively, along with testosterone supplemention and intense weightlifting regimen.....estrogen - in that case - will NOT make you fat...or play a bad role. testosterone is what it is for the important fact that estrogen levels are raised along with it. if you are so anti-estrogen....then just opt for a drug like winstrol or primo or fina, and add proviron to avoid erectile disfunction. that way you get the same effect you would on testosterone and anti-e drugs. the results will be the same.....some strength gains and humble number of muscle pounds gained. just think....how many prior to just a few years ago used anti-e's....were the olympia champions fat and supporting c-cup breasts!?

**vitor** · 10-07-2006, 05:35 AM

So you know what the former Olympia champions where using? You have seen their cycles? Wow, thats amaizing!

I never talked about eliminating estrogen, but rather keeping them within the normal range. (I prefer lower).

Explain exactly what advantage a butt-load of estrogen will have on GH, IGF and insulin , compared to having a normal ammount of E?

Teststerone will stimulate muscle grow thrue its binding at the AR -recepter, by it DHT conversion thrue the 5ar and several other activitis at the non AR-meditaded mechanism, which increase protein syntheize, IGF levels in the muscle etc...

**realjo1000** · 10-07-2006, 12:46 PM

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**realjo1000** · 10-07-2006, 01:47 PM

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**ascendant** · 10-08-2006, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by realjo1000

a question: are there any of you who have done cycles without anti-E during the cycle and came out unharmed (no gyno)?

of course there is. all depends on how much of an aromatizing compound you're using and how susceptible you are to gyno. personally, my first couple cycles were without any anti-e's and i came out fine. then again, my first few cycles were no more than 500mg of test/week.

i've heard people advise anti-e's when going over 500mg, and i've heard others say they're not necessary until you're using over 1g/week. it's all very individual, and i'm sure some people could get gyno with as little as 200mg/week of test. if you want to risk it and see if you're susceptible, it's up to you. just consider if you do get gyno and you can't reverse the process with anti-e's after the fact, unless you have a lot of money for surgery, you're gonna have a nice set of man-boobs for quite some time afterwards.

**realjo1000** · 10-08-2006, 05:18 PM

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**ascendant** · 10-08-2006, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by realjo1000

thanks ascendant, you look thick btw, if that pic is of you.

is there any blood test way to figure out if one is susceptible to gyno?

if not, i guess the only way is to test it. pun intended of course.

yea, the pic is of me... about 2 years ago before i took a long layoff from lifting. long story, but catching back up now and doing real good. i'll be back up to that size in about another 6 months or so, then i'm gonna keep going. i'll be putting a new avy of me up on here once i put on another 15lbs or so, which considering i'm doing my first cycle in over 2 years, i'm sure will be real soon

as far as a blood test, there really isn't any way to tell, no. you just really don't know how your body will react to high levels of estrogen until you're actually there. how much test are you planning to take anyway? if it's under 500mg/week, you should be fine, but then again that's not a guarantee.

**realjo1000** · 10-09-2006, 02:21 AM

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**sircharles** · 10-09-2006, 12:04 PM

Read up on Proviron in the steroids profile section. Good at combating gyno, and keeping water weight off. Maybe try running that throughout the cycle and PCT. Wait and throw the Nolva in PCT only.

**Carlos_E** · 10-09-2006, 12:42 PM

Originally Posted by realjo1000

a question: are there any of you who have done cycles without anti-E during the cycle and came out unharmed (no gyno)?

I don't use anti Es. The only time I will take them is if I have bad water retention. I'll take an anti-E for a few days until the bloat comes off. Other than that, I never run them and no gyno. I have nice tight tiny nipples.

BTW, I was running anadrol /deca /sust.

**realjo1000** · 10-09-2006, 02:05 PM

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**rukus43** · 10-10-2006, 12:49 AM

Carlos,
I am having a problem with bloat also (I am in wk 4, dbol kickstart, eq600/wk, test cyp 600/wk) . I have a low bf and no gyno or gyno-like symptoms...just this damn bloat (like 3-4 lbs of water)...which anti-E do you take for this at what dose?...