Winny Oral vs Inject Doses

**Andros** · 10-10-2006, 02:16 PM

I was wondering why people take much smaller doses of winny when its a tab then when its ijectable.

If its for the liver toxicity that is really stupid since even when injected the winny will go through the liver just as much as if it was eaten the only difference being that it doesn't necessarily hit first pass all in one before circulating around like when you eat it. But that won't affect the amount of liver fatigue per/mg.

**stupidhippo** · 10-10-2006, 02:32 PM

interesting question... does it cause more strain on the liver or not if it avoids the first passage?

**Swifto** · 10-10-2006, 03:01 PM

I bet the difference is very small. Its a very hpatoxic compound, injected or administered orally. Well...Thats what the literature says. Yet to run it yet.

Be intrested to see how my liver values come back as I've run Tbol for 10 weeks at 60-80mg/ED, with VERY little effect on my liver.

**WantinBigger** · 10-10-2006, 07:22 PM

What dosage on the oral? I read on here it's average life is 8 hours?? and that you should do 25mg 2x a day? Does that seem right? A buddy of mine injects 50mg every other day. (That's a lot of pokes!)

**HighandWide** · 10-10-2006, 07:31 PM

inject...i took orals and saw minimal results

**stupidhippo** · 10-10-2006, 10:15 PM

according to AR the orals are better to use to lower SHBG... im trying that now, appliying oral winny at the 8th week mark of test / deca cycle..

**LatinoPR** · 10-10-2006, 10:38 PM

I run it 3 time injectable....love it..!!!

LPR.

**Andros** · 10-11-2006, 12:33 AM

Bump.

Anyone?

**Sami33** · 10-11-2006, 02:49 AM

Originally Posted by Andros

I was wondering why people take much smaller doses of winny when its a tab then when its ijectable.

If its for the liver toxicity that is really stupid since even when injected the winny will go through the liver just as much as if it was eaten the only difference being that it doesn't necessarily hit first pass all in one before circulating around like when you eat it. But that won't affect the amount of liver fatigue per/mg.

alcohols and liver problems are correlated according to several proven research studies. I can not predict based on the information u provided whether ingestable dosage or injectable oil, unless research studies on specific group and control group suggest so.

good question!

**The_Canibal** · 10-11-2006, 03:06 AM

itz the exact opposite of that ...

**Sami33** · 10-11-2006, 03:09 AM

opposite of what..

**The_Canibal** · 10-11-2006, 03:33 AM

when you take oral AAS they pass through the liver twive...whreas the injectables pass through only once...

my feeling is that people tend to take a much higher dose of winny tabs..cause they don't have to worry about the injections..and due to itz verry short life..

**Sami33** · 10-11-2006, 04:18 AM

the function of the liver in the body is to remove urea (or acid) from the body just as the glands below ur skin is to remove sweats from the body (perspiration). so my opinion was that ingesting dosages say 100mg a day for 12 wk cycle may or may not have the same effect as injection of 2.5 cc for whole cycle. But alcohol and liver problems...there are mountain of proven studies that leads to toxity as ....Andros said in this post.

**Swifto** · 10-11-2006, 04:26 AM

The differnence is minimal. Around 17% less nitrogen retention when administering it orally, when compared to injecting it.

**Andros** · 10-11-2006, 04:15 PM

I've seen many cycles with 100mg ED or EOD injections of winny but never heard anyone say they take the same amount in tablets.

As far as the two passes throught the liver, that shouldn't be true; I mean yes the tabs go throught the liver as they travel from the digestive system into circulation (through the hepatic vein) before they reach systemic circulation BUT each molecule of Stanozol will eventually be enzymatically broken down by the liver 100% so if the amounts are the same damage should also be equal.....right?

**doittoit** · 10-11-2006, 05:16 PM

winny is mild i find so i dont notice much. the only reason im running it right now is because i have a shit load of it. 4 weeks 200mg+ a day.

**pumpd4lif** · 10-11-2006, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Andros

I've seen many cycles with 100mg ED or EOD injections of winny but never heard anyone say they take the same amount in tablets.

As far as the two passes throught the liver, that shouldn't be true; I mean yes the tabs go throught the liver as they travel from the digestive system into circulation (through the hepatic vein) before they reach systemic circulation BUT each molecule of Stanozol will eventually be enzymatically broken down by the liver 100% so if the amounts are the same damage should also be equal.....right?

wrong it does not pass thru the liver first time around when injected,and should also be injected 2x ed for eod injects defeat the perpuse do to the 10 hour half life.

**Andros** · 10-11-2006, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by pumpd4lif

wrong it does not pass thru the liver first time around when injected,and should also be injected 2x ed for eod injects defeat the perpuse do to the 10 hour half life.

I was talking about the oral.

What I was saying is that x mg of drugs will poison x amount of receptors regardless of wether it goes through the hepatic vein and then circulates (oral) or wether it just circulates (injectable).

***Narkissos*** · 10-11-2006, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Andros

I've seen many cycles with 100mg ED or EOD injections of winny but never heard anyone say they take the same amount in tablets.

I do.

Your question... "why do people take less injectable than oral winny"...

You've got it wrong... cus it's the other way around.\

Nark

**Andros** · 10-12-2006, 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

I do.

Your question... "why do people take less injectable than oral winny"...

You've got it wrong... cus it's the other way around.\

Nark

Really?? Ok I'll keep an eye out for cycles that include it.

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2006, 01:10 AM

Originally Posted by Andros

I've seen many cycles with 100mg ED or EOD injections of winny but never heard anyone say they take the same amount in tablets.

As far as the two passes throught the liver, that shouldn't be true; I mean yes the tabs go throught the liver as they travel from the digestive system into circulation (through the hepatic vein) before they reach systemic circulation BUT each molecule of Stanozol will eventually be enzymatically broken down by the liver 100% so if the amounts are the same damage should also be equal.....right?

i hear u.. u have a point.. but does the amount that goes by the first passage make it more hepatotoxic? I mean in the end all is prolly broken down by the liver as u said or do the kidneys excrete stanozolol in an unmodified form? interesting question..

**The_Canibal** · 10-12-2006, 01:46 AM

Originally Posted by Narkissos

I do.

Your question... "why do people take less injectable than oral winny"...

You've got it wrong... cus it's the other way around.\

Nark

finally someone found the right words...

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by stupidhippo

i hear u.. u have a point.. but does the amount that goes by the first passage make it more hepatotoxic? I mean in the end all is prolly broken down by the liver as u said or do the kidneys excrete stanozolol in an unmodified form? interesting question..

Yes it does. Injecting it bypasses this "first pass" and avoids being metabolized for the first time via the gut and liver. Though, it will be metabolized if it reaches the liver and skelatal muscle. It seems its less hpatoxic when injected, yes.

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 02:14 AM

Originally Posted by Andros

I was talking about the oral.

What I was saying is that x mg of drugs will poison x amount of receptors regardless of wether it goes through the hepatic vein and then circulates (oral) or wether it just circulates (injectable).

Not to my understanding. When injected it will be metabolized via the liver/skeletal muscle. Which doesnt occur when administered orally. Its metabolized via the gut/liver, as you've stated, then has to undergo another second pass through the liver and metabolism through skeletal muscle.

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2006, 04:15 AM

swifto: isnt the proportion metabolized by the skeletal muscle and the gut still very small? I mean most of the hormone is really metabolized by the liver in the end? Im not 100% sure so anyone who knows better please correct me..

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 06:39 AM

This is from Anthony Roberts talking about injectable vs. oral:

"So I think it’s safe to say that some of the “hard” look you can get in your physique from Winstrol is because of it’s ability to inhibit estrogen and progesterone- known culprits in making a physique appear smooth. Unfortunately, since it is 17aa, it is also liver toxic, especially more so when you inject it and it is subject to what is known as the “first pass” through the liver. The difference between taking oral vs. injectable Winstrol, even though it’s technically the same drug, is how and when your body metabolizes it. When you consume a drug orally, that drug is absorbed from the Gastrointestinal tract, where it then passes via the portal vein into the liver -where some drugs are metabolised. This “first pass” can mean that only a certain portion of the drug reaches your body’s bloodstream. As previously discussed, a 17aa has been attached to Winstrol to allow a sizeable portion to survive this metabolism.

First pass metabolism can occur in both the gut and the liver, and where this happens can vary with different drugs. First pass metabolism actually occurs in your gut for some drugs and in the liver for others. Once it has been metabolized, it enters the bloodstream. It’s important to note that when a blood is metabolized in the Gastrointestinal tract, the blood leaving the Gastrointestinal tract does not go right to the heart, but actually still passes through liver via the hepatic portal vein and then ultimately returns to circulation via the hepatic vein. The liver is your body’s filtration unit, and removes large quantities of nutrients, dangerous toxins (or fun toxins, depending on what they are) and other substances from the blood.

So as you can see, when you take an oral steroid such as Winstrol, undergoes a first-pass metabolism in the both the intestines as well as liver. Some drugs can be absorbed more or less totally intact, after only moderate metabolic activity, while some are absorbed only after very extensive metabolic activity. Once it is through this first pass, a given drug then circulates in the blood until it is acquired by another tissue, such as skeletal muscle. Now, if the drug reaches the liver again, it may undergo what is cleverly known as “second-pass” metabolism. Of course, in the case of Winstrol, an injectable version is available, and when we compare the oral and injectable versions of Winstrol and their effects in your body, I think there’s some surprising differences. The injectable is (naturally) put right into your bloodstream and only undergoes the far less extensive second pass metabolism, while the oral must endure the gut and liver on it’s first pass before ending up in circulation."

See that bit thats underlined. Isnt that a typo and meant to say when administered orally its more toxic?!

Just read it. I'm confused now!

**stupidhippo** · 10-12-2006, 08:07 AM

i dont know..... im also confused

i mean it could be either.. my pharma knowledge isnt enough to exclude either...

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 08:17 AM

I think its a typo as he goes on to talk about orally absorbed winstrol first.

Dam...Where is AR when you need him?!

But surely the less a compounds passes through various organs and enters into circulation, the less toxic or damge its doing...?

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 08:37 AM

Anthony! Was it a typo?!

**skipp** · 10-12-2006, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Anthony! Was it a typo?!

I don't think so, because if you take 100mg of Stan (oral) let's say 50% of that is metabolized in the gut, then it happens to go through the second pass so the other 50% is metabolized in the liver.

But if you inject 100% you're totally avoiding the first pass through the gut and it would all be filtered by the liver.. so it would be more than 50%, maybe not 100% but definatly more than the oral.

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 09:06 AM

I'm totally lost.

**The_Canibal** · 10-12-2006, 09:06 AM

inject are by far better...

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 09:09 AM

Originally Posted by skipp

I don't think so, because if you take 100mg of Stan (oral) let's say 50% of that is metabolized in the gut, then it happens to go through the second pass so the other 50% is metabolized in the liver.

But if you inject 100% you're totally avoiding the first pass through the gut and it would all be filtered by the liver.. so it would be more than 50%, maybe not 100% but definatly more than the oral.

Its metabolized into circulation. Injecting it bypass's this first metabolization process and it reaches circualtion almost instantly and will be metabolized through skeltalk muscle ASWELL as the liver. This way, less is metabolised by the liver. Right?

I understand what your saying though.

**skipp** · 10-12-2006, 09:17 AM

Originally Posted by Swifto

Its metabolized into circulation. Injecting it bypass's this first metabolization process and it reaches circualtion almost instantly and will be metabolized through skeltalk muscle ASWELL as the liver. This way, less is metabolised by the liver. Right?

I understand what your saying though.

Well the oral would be cut down to lets say 80% from the gut, then 40 and 40 go to the skelatal muscle and liver (40% each)

But with the injectable the 100% makes it in the blood so 50% and 50 get metabolized by the muscle and liver (50% each)

Now I doubt the ratio of what gets digested by the liver/skelatal muscle is 50/50, but it will be the same for both. So either way the liver does get a little more stress with the IM version..

I feel the gains achieved with the IM far surpass the extra liver toxcitiy.

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by skipp

Well the oral would be cut down to lets say 80% from the gut, then 40 and 40 go to the skelatal muscle and liver (40% each)

But with the injectable the 100% makes it in the blood so 50% and 50 get metabolized by the muscle and liver (50% each)

Now I doubt the ratio of what gets digested by the liver/skelatal muscle is 50/50, but it will be the same for both. So either way the liver does get a little more stress with the IM version..

I feel the gains achieved with the IM far surpass the extra liver toxcitiy.

I dont know. Where you getting these numbers from?

**skipp** · 10-12-2006, 09:33 AM

They're theoretical, but it doesn't matter what numbers you use. That's my point. The liver always gets less compound orally.

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 09:35 AM

Not that I dont disagree with your theory. I;d just like a second opinion.

I've PM'd some Mods/Vets.

**skipp** · 10-12-2006, 09:44 AM

Oh no definatly, I'm just thinking out loud. Let me know what you come up with.

There's a lot of things that sound great on paper and isn't even close to real life.

**Swifto** · 10-12-2006, 09:47 AM

I've asked Anthony to comment on the article he wrote. I wasnt sure if its a typo or I totally dont undertstand it...!

***G-1000*** · 10-12-2006, 10:10 AM

I dont even see why this thread has went on this long.

Fist off for all you guys that think winny is miled your wrong. Winny is a very harsh compound.

There are meany reasons why winny dose is different from injectable to oral. Most people do not wont to run as high of a does with oral. this is because it will and dose pass throw the live 2x and is harder on the live.

Why is winny is injectable more potent is because or the nitrogen retention. You you do not have the brake down of the compound in the digestive system.