what is wrong with clomid?

[the hulkster]

if you are not prone to estro sides why not just run your cycle and hit clomid at the end and be done with it?

[Johny-too-small]

Nothing is wrong with it. However, many users dont like the emotional sides from it as well as vision issues.

[lifterjaydawg]

Some people do experience major side effects with clomid. Other than that clomid works great.

[the hulkster]

Never had any problem unless you consider big danglin balls a problem? anyone else want to add any chemical comments, I am an ex. physiologist not a chemist or a pharmicist.

[znak]

Some people do experience major side effects with clomid. Other than that clomid works great.

If you don't mind could you tell me more about major sides and the issue with vision.

[Johny-too-small]

If you don't mind could you tell me more about major sides and the issue with vision.

As far as the vision is concerned, I know that a few bro's here have had fuzzy or blurry vision while using clomid. The only other sides that members have reported dealing with undesired emotional feelings. Thats all I know, and its kept me from using it.

[znak]

As far as the vision is concerned, I know that a few bro's here have had fuzzy or blurry vision while using clomid. The only other sides that members have reported dealing with undesired emotional feelings. Thats all I know, and its kept me from using it.

What do you use instead? HCG ?

[lifterjaydawg]

If you don't mind could you tell me more about major sides and the issue with vision.

The main issue that I had was that my acne really started to act up. You also get a little too emotional but thats to be expected. I would still use it because it worked well.

[Wizeguy]

What do you use instead? HCG?

Nolva is a good substitute. They are very similar, the effective dose of Nolva is much lower. I'm sure some other vet. members could expand more on it.

[carter]

I've used a moderate therapy of Clomid one time before and experienced none of these "sides". The only sides i experienced were complete positive, meanning it got my test levels back to normal, with minimal muscle loss.

[RobbieG]

Nolva is a good substitute. They are very similar, the effective dose of Nolva is much lower. I'm sure some other vet. members could expand more on it.

no!

Nolva won´t do the same thang, ie: the hormone ( test ) will increase more on clomid in my case.

but my pct is always with exemest nowadays.

nolva+exemest

throw a little proviron (50 mg ED) if the ol' johnson ain´t coming up!

[GGallin]

So is clomid an anti E? I know it is a womans birth control pill.

[RobbieG]

So is clomid an anti E? I know it is a womans birth control pill.

Then you know wrong.

Clomifene acts by inhibiting the action of estrogen on the gonadotrope cells in the anterior pituitary gland. "Sensing" low estrogen levels, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) release is increased, leading to a higher rate of ovulation and hence pregnancy.

Clomifene can lead to multiple ovulation, and hence increasing the chance of twins. In comparison to purified FSH, the rate of ovarian hyperstimulation syndrome is low. There may be an increased risk of ovarian cancer, and weight gain.

[GGallin]

I guess I heard the opposite.

[hugovsilva]

I always use Nolvadex . I don't know why people still insist on running clomid, when nolva does best with less dosage and side effects.
There is a myth regarding Clomid that says clomid is better for test production stimulation, I found nolvadex works way better for me.

Check this study:


I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use...

Clomid, Nolvadex And Testosterone Stimulation.

By: William Llewellyn



Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor.

In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant.

What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response.

The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment).

As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2).

This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid.

This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well.

Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

[RobbieG]

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens .........
In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens...........

They are not ANTI ESTROGEN, they are SERM'S !

first he says it´s an anti-E, then it ACTS like one ..

come on, you should know that these drugs act different on us.

my pct is nolva, exemest and clomid. ( sometimes proviron )

[BigSexy50]

Clomid make my back break out like crazy, I acted like a woman, and I was catching trails off of any flash of light. The really bad thing is that these sides continued for a considerable amount of time after I finished Clomid therapy.

[hugovsilva]

Read it all:

"They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor."

Of course i know it acts different in everybody, but sometimes your head tells you something with which your body doesn't agree, because of what you previously had put in your mind.
If clomid works better (or you think it does) for you, then continue with clomid. If you notice, more and more user are switching to Nolvadex . Wonder why?

They are not ANTI ESTROGEN, they are SERM'S !

first he says it´s an anti-E, then it ACTS like one ..

come on, you should know that these drugs act different on us.

my pct is nolva, exemest and clomid. ( sometimes proviron )

[znak]

Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

Good post, good info. Thanks