Why Do People stop Their Cycle COLD TURKEY? Why not just Wein Off it? To avoid crash?

[AnabolicBoy1981]

The body has to read testosterone deficit to stimulate production. So tapering down would just prolong your cycle cuz the more time you have exogenous amounts of hormone in you. There is no way to know if injecting enough to mimic half of what your body produces naturally would read as a deficit to the hypothalmus. Say your on ten weeks at the "growth dose" ie 500mg but you inject up to week 12 or 14 at super small dosages, you are probobly just prolonging the time your shut down. The only other way you could do it is sart tapering earlier, and that sucks cuz your cutting your cycle short. And what do you do if you were already running a shorty? a 4-6 weeker? See why this thinkin is flawed?
The reason anti estrogens help boost production is becuase when the hypothalmus reads low estrogen, it says "Oh shit, im not even producing enough testosterone to aromatize to a small amount of estrogen, i better ramp up testosterone" and then it does.

Now if you injected a small amount of testosterone so small that it only gave you half of what you normaly produce(which you could only find out through lots of BW), then would your body read deficit? Who knows? that assuming you were 100% shut down, which you generally arent unless running a 19-nor.
So lets say your body reads 300ng/dl of test when its used to 600. Would it up test production halfway to raise it to 600ng/dl? and then go off and we are at about 300ng/dl again. and then use hcg , nolva, and AIs to raise it further, right? Well maybe, but there is very little chance its gonna pan out that way imo. Better to just get off the stuff, let those long esters run out, and start pct.
JMHO

[vermin]

If you are really worried, just start your PCT early (when you know it won't do any good) and keep running it through the normal period, so you'd have an extra 2-3 weeks of PCT. That way your PCT will be "primed" to kick in at the earliest possible moment.

While on one hand the question raises an interesting discussion, and revelations that many do indeed use some form of taper, I am not sure what perceived "problem" there is that it is attempting to address.

Folks do these cycles, they use PCT, they work, and they keep their gains. This is not "stupid", this actually does work. Other may do different things, those different things may also work.

[fLgAtOr]

Although I don't see anything wrong with a cetain amount of tapering, your logic of getting there is pretty flawed.

As AnabolicBoy mentioned, even if you were able to take a "lower than normal" dose of test at the end, the time it would take to get your body to resond would be too long. In addition, the amount of test that you would have wouldn't be enough to save/build any muscle. Basically you are saying that you would drop exogenous test to a 60yr. old man to boost production...Won't happen.

Hence, why we use PCT compounds. Becuase a combination of SERMs and AIs will help boost test levels much more quickly than just stopping or having a "low" amount (which are basically the same if you think about it).

Longhorn also brought up the fact that anytime you have an exogenous source of hormones, you will cause you body to lower its own. Sure, some people use a small dose of DBol or anavar or something like that...But the problem is finding the amount that is enough to "do" anything without "suppressing" anything...And usually, its not worth it.

Your knowledge of SERMs and AIs are also a little lacking...AIs have been shown to greatly boost natty test levels in response to lowered estro levels. Bottom line: They work.

Now, with that said, I think where you are coming from is trying to start PCT with suppressive sompounds still floating around. Two weeks after your test e shot, you will still have exogenous test. But the logic is, as you go through PCT, the exogenous test drops, and the SERMS and AIs will boost endogenous levels.

Personally, having used compounds like tren that seem to linger for a while I prefer a different method. (For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why I was still getting stronger in PCT, then WHAM, felt like shit.) I would prefer to run a light oral (Var) well past the "halflife" of whatever compound you are using. For example after my last shot of Test E, I ran Var three weeks past, while using HCG on my last 10 days. Started PCT the next day, and it went relatively smooth.

[Swifto]

There is many people who take HCG While on Cycle to prevent shut down of Test.

In fact i read that HRT Dosing for Men is at 250mg every 2 weeks and they don't start at 250mg off the bat, they start like 100mg only every 2 weeks and slowly increase. And when they come off they decrease slowly.

It's really stupid how people Frontload 1 gram off the bat, and then come off the cycle cold turkey after months on it and then expect HCG or Clomid to save them, ya right, HCG and clomid wont save nothing when your body is shut down like that, only time will.

You cannot avoid shutdown of endogenous testosterone prodcution when using HCG on a cycle of synthetic testosterone (Prop, Enan, Cyp, etc...). But you can maintain ITT and testicular mass.

[hosam4ever]

nothing can prevent shutdown of test production during the cycle hcg will keep the size of the balls coz it sends artificial signal 2 the tests 2 produce test again as it acts like lh but the bad news that when u stop using the hcg ur test level will drop again due 2 the lack of lh thats why we use serms & AI to boost the production of lh & fsh then the test will be back again

[Swifto]

actually clomid and nolva stimulate LH and FSH, which in turn stimulate your body to release testosterone.

HCG is similar to LH and b/c they are similar, LH binds to receptors on leydig cells stimulating synthesis and secretion of testosterone

Half life by definition is the time required for the disappearance or decay of one-half of a given component in a system. Even if you taper down your doses, you still need to wait the appropriate time (14 days if enanthate) to start PCT b/c too much of the hormone will still be active in your system

Nolva and Clomid are both SERMs and block the amount of active estrogen receptors in the Hypothalamus. They raise T by actively blocking estrogen. When enough estorgen is blocked the Hypothalamus will actively signal the Pituitary via producing GnRH. LH/FSH production will follow, raising T.

Although I don't see anything wrong with a cetain amount of tapering, your logic of getting there is pretty flawed.

As AnabolicBoy mentioned, even if you were able to take a "lower than normal" dose of test at the end, the time it would take to get your body to resond would be too long. In addition, the amount of test that you would have wouldn't be enough to save/build any muscle. Basically you are saying that you would drop exogenous test to a 60yr. old man to boost production...Won't happen.

Hence, why we use PCT compounds. Becuase a combination of SERMs and AIs will help boost test levels much more quickly than just stopping or having a "low" amount (which are basically the same if you think about it).

Longhorn also brought up the fact that anytime you have an exogenous source of hormones, you will cause you body to lower its own. Sure, some people use a small dose of DBol or anavar or something like that...But the problem is finding the amount that is enough to "do" anything without "suppressing" anything...And usually, its not worth it.

Your knowledge of SERMs and AIs are also a little lacking...AIs have been shown to greatly boost natty test levels in response to lowered estro levels. Bottom line: They work.

Now, with that said, I think where you are coming from is trying to start PCT with suppressive sompounds still floating around. Two weeks after your test e shot, you will still have exogenous test. But the logic is, as you go through PCT, the exogenous test drops, and the SERMS and AIs will boost endogenous levels.

Personally, having used compounds like tren that seem to linger for a while I prefer a different method. (For the life of me, I couldn't figure out why I was still getting stronger in PCT, then WHAM, felt like shit.) I would prefer to run a light oral (Var) well past the "halflife" of whatever compound you are using. For example after my last shot of Test E, I ran Var three weeks past, while using HCG on my last 10 days. Started PCT the next day, and it went relatively smooth.

This is exactly what I'm going to start doing. Drop of the more suppressive androgens, such as Testosteron Enanthate 4-5 weeks proir to starting PCT, but using a low dose of a less suppressive oral, Tbol or Var. Looks good on papar but will it work. Next cycle we will see.

I'm also for the idea of, when using any 19-Nor, dropping it off 5-6 weeks proir to my main base compound, be that Testosterone or something else? User's state PCT is slightly easier dropping off their 19-Nor proir to PCT. But why not drop it off 5+ weeks, not 1 or 2 weeks to match PCT times up.

Tapering the Testosterone seems impossible to work on papar, but it seems it works as real world experiences state it does. EQ aromotases more than Deca , does that mean you get massive amounts of bloat on EQ....? No.

Taper if it suits you. I'll be trying it when I use a long acting compound again.

[Warrior]

The HPTA will not recover until all exogenous use has stopped... period. Once the final ester runs its course - then administer proper PCT: anti-e's to keep high estrogen levels from keeping you shut down; Clomid to kick the testies pumpin' LH; HCG if the cycle was really suppressive and the testes need a reminder of what the gonadtropins look like...

Tapering down is unproductive and only deplays recovery - come off completely and then use proper post cycle drugs... this topic was beatin' up over 10-15 years ago... don't taper - get on, then get off and recover - the faster the better.

[Swifto]

nothing can prevent shutdown of test production during the cycle hcg will keep the size of the balls coz it sends artificial signal 2 the tests 2 produce test again as it acts like lh but the bad news that when u stop using the hcg ur test level will drop again due 2 the lack of lh thats why we use serms & AI to boost the production of lh & fsh then the test will be back again

It maintains ITT (Intratesticular Testosterone ) which maintains testicular mass. Not endogenous Testosetrone.

[Swifto]

I dont see how its possible to make HPTA recovery easier on a lower does of Testosetrone than the cycle contained as a base. Its too difficult to judge how much of the androgen is needed for inhibition or shutdown to occur IMHO. When androgen levels decrease in the Hypothalamus I guess some hormone output would resume, right?

It seems to much trouble for such a little gain IMHO.

Taper the Testosterone if you recieve lesser sides doing this. I'd also be inclined to introduce/bump the dose of any AI/SERM being used, ready for PCT to begin.

[fLgAtOr]

I dont see how its possible to make HPTA recovery easier on a lower does of Testosetrone than the cycle contained as a base. Its too difficult to judge how much of the androgen is needed for inhibition or shutdown to occur IMHO. When androgen levels decrease in the Hypothalamus I guess some hormone output would resume, right?

It seems to much trouble for such a little gain IMHO.

Taper the Testosterone if you recieve lesser sides doing this. I'd also be inclined to introduce/bump the dose of any AI/SERM being used, ready for PCT to begin.

I agree. I think the people who taper, drop to a HRT dose for a few weeks (correct me if I'm wrong). Based on what I've read, it sounds like the benefit is decreased sides...even if its mental sides of going from a gram of test to nothing.

[fLgAtOr]

Nolva and Clomid are both SERMs and block the amount of active estrogen receptors in the Hypothalamus. They raise T by actively blocking estrogen. When enough estorgen is blocked the Hypothalamus will actively signal the Pituitary via producing GnRH. LH/FSH production will follow, raising T.

Doesn't Nolva act directly on the pituitary gland? I'm running out to work, so I'll check later.

This is exactly what I'm going to start doing. Drop of the more suppressive androgens, such as Testosteron Enanthate 4-5 weeks proir to starting PCT, but using a low dose of a less suppressive oral, Tbol or Var. Looks good on papar but will it work. Next cycle we will see.

I encourage you to try it. It was the easiest PCT yet...and I was on for about 16 weeks I think. I used HCG and switched from Letro to Arimidex during this time.

See bold.

[Swifto]

See bold.

No. It acts on the Hypothalamus, not Pituitary.





Am going to have a go. Definitely intrested in this technique of cycling and recovery. Will be doing this next cycle...If and when.

[zk7]

Just like any Medication out there that you take exogenously, your natural production shuts down however your body only scales back production to match the normal levels it regularly has. So taking Low Dose of a steroid in PCT may not increase endogenous production but it will allow the transition period to be silk smooth without any side effects and also help you keep your gains.

Old school people used to taper off, slowly decreasing and tells the body it needs to start producing and that allows a smooth transition without any side effects in between or a crash.

And this conception that if your body detects even 1% of Test exogenous in your body it shuts down completely it is completely FALSE.

Your body Only decreases its natural production PROPORTIONAL to the ratio of exogenous test. If you take 50%, it will shut down gradually 50% to maintain 100% balance. So that's how it is anyways.

Since the pros in the past used to taper down without PCT and they did this silk smooth, why not taper down in conjonction with PCT.

Many people i spoke to said that they take HCG during cycle and post cycle to allow continuous production (forced production) and to prevent a sudden crash.

And why not do PCT the minute you finish your cycle, if you wait 2 weeks for after ur last Test E shot, it'll be even more hard on your body to start pumping all overnight it will take a while. But taking PCT right after Cycle will allow smoother transition and this conception that Body wont produce until all exogenous test is gone, is only true WHEN YOUR IN EXCESS, but like you said The juice has half life and will self tapper and the PCT will take time to kick in within 2 weeks.

All im saying is that quitting cold turkey and then waiting 2 weeks and starting PCT when ur like completely depleted of TEst is a recipe for disaster.

[vermin]

Just like any Medication out there that you take exogenously, your natural production shuts down however your body only scales back production to match the normal levels it regularly has. So taking Low Dose of a steroid in PCT may not increase endogenous production but it will allow the transition period to be silk smooth without any side effects and also help you keep your gains.

This is simply not true. Most of the AAS folks take have no natural levels, and yet many can in even very small doses very nearly completly shut down natural production. Moreover, many folks report HIGHER side effects using a tapering method due to the prolonged duraiton of varying levels.

Old school people used to taper off, slowly decreasing and tells the body it needs to start producing and that allows a smooth transition without any side effects in between or a crash.

The "old school" taper methods were largely disasterous, which is why PCT was developed.

And this conception that if your body detects even 1% of Test exogenous in your body it shuts down completely it is completely FALSE.

Never heard of this "conception", but if you look at even the informed posts in this thread you will see that the documented responses to even small levels of exogenous testosterone is variable and difficult to predict - and of course, much of what folks take is not testosterone.

Your body Only decreases its natural production PROPORTIONAL to the ratio of exogenous test. If you take 50%, it will shut down gradually 50% to maintain 100% balance. So that's how it is anyways.

Some documented evidence of this would be nice - and perhaps you'd better publish this amazing research you've done and allow it to be peer reviewed, because it contradicts the established and heretofore published studies (e.g., J Investig Med. 1997 Oct;45(8):441-7).

Since the pros in the past used to taper down without PCT and they did this silk smooth,.

It was not "silk smooth" - see note above about PCT.

why not taper down in conjonction with PCT.

Thsi is a different concept from the "old school" and is discussed quite a bit in this thread.

Many people i spoke to said that they take HCG during cycle and post cycle to allow continuous production (forced production) and to prevent a sudden crash..

If that is what they said, they do not understand the function of HCG . If you believed them, you do not either.

And why not do PCT the minute you finish your cycle, if you wait 2 weeks for after ur last Test E shot, it'll be even more hard on your body to start pumping all overnight it will take a while. But taking PCT right after Cycle will allow smoother transition and this conception that Body wont produce until all exogenous test is gone, is only true WHEN YOUR IN EXCESS, but like you said The juice has half life and will self tapper and the PCT will take time to kick in within 2 weeks.

When PCT begins is dependent upon what AAS is used in a cycle. As to the rest if the misinformation in the above paragraph, I believe I have addressed it all already.

All im saying is that quitting cold turkey and then waiting 2 weeks and starting PCT when ur like completely depleted of TEst is a recipe for disaster.

Actually what you are saying is that you lack the basic understanding of AAS, HPTA, the endocrine system, pharmacology and the substances used to expressed an informed opinion on this subject matter. I am sorry, this is not meant as a flame, but misinformation like you have posted needs to be shot down so that it doesn't get someone hurt.

[Swifto]

This is simply not true. Most of the AAS folks take have no natural levels, and yet many can in even very small doses very nearly completly shut down natural production. Moreover, many folks report HIGHER side effects using a tapering method due to the prolonged duraiton of varying levels.




The "old school" taper methods were largely disasterous, which is why PCT was developed.



Never heard of this "conception", but if you look at even the informed posts in this thread you will see that the documented responses to even small levels of exogenous testosterone is variable and difficult to predict - and of course, much of what folks take is not testosterone.



Some documented evidence of this would be nice - and perhaps you'd better publish this amazing research you've done and allow it to be peer reviewed, because it contradicts the established and heretofore published studies (e.g., J Investig Med. 1997 Oct;45(8):441-7).



It was not "silk smooth" - see note above about PCT.



Thsi is a different concept from the "old school" and is discussed quite a bit in this thread.



If that is what they said, they do not understand the function of HCG . If you believed them, you do not either.




When PCT begins is dependent upon what AAS is used in a cycle. As to the rest if the misinformation in the above paragraph, I believe I have addressed it all already.




Actually what you are saying is that you lack the basic understanding of AAS, HPTA, the endocrine system, pharmacology and the substances used to expressed an informed opinion on this subject matter. I am sorry, this is not meant as a flame, but misinformation like you have posted needs to be shot down so that it doesn't get someone hurt.

I'm glad someone did this. I was going to, but got caught up in reading another thread and forgot.

[fLgAtOr]

Thank you Vermin.

zk7,
I want to see your ideas in a pratical cycle format using a single compound (Test E).

[longhorn814]

thanks vermin...good responses

[BG]

a 100mg of exongenous test is about 10x more than what the body naturally produces..you will still be shut down!!! 250mg every 2 weeks as part of HRT seems normal b/c of the long half life of the enanthate or cypionate ester. Remember that people on HRT are taking it for different reasons, i.e. they have naturally low testosterone. If you want to restart your natural test production, you need to let the exogenous test clear your system. I never quit cold turkey when I ran long esters, I always ran a low dose of prop or suspension (something that clears quickly) and then go into PCT...works well for me. Have had blood work to prove that it works well for me too

The only problem I had with switching to prop was I started getting good gains from it........so I ended up sticking myself ed for six more weeks, then doing pct. This is actually is the way I figured out that switching compounds after one has flattened out worked so good for me, also the fact Jayhova and I had a good discussion when I first joined about something similar. I believe the way you mentioned is the best(prop/susp), but I also like to taper down to 100mg ew of a longester test, then using proper pct protocol.

[ftony]

Hey what's up fellas I have to tell you guys my brother has been competing since the early 90s he's won the nationals one year in cali he's huge!! What I'm about to tell you I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do . I'm just sharing what I know about a pro, I ask a lot of questions on here because my bro. doesn't mess with pct or supplements, never did maybe he's on all year in the past but not now...And he's 6'3 275 ripped( he has been 320 freaky).he always tells me just to taper and chuck the pct...now ill remind you I never said to do this I'm just telling you what he does and he's won some shows loads of trophy's , I still do a pct ,but it makes me wonder.....

[fLgAtOr]

Hey what's up fellas I have to tell you guys my brother has been competing since the early 90s he's won the nationals one year in cali he's huge!! What I'm about to tell you I'm not saying you should or shouldn't do . I'm just sharing what I know about a pro, I ask a lot of questions on here because my bro. doesn't mess with pct or supplements, never did maybe he's on all year in the past but not now...And he's 6'3 275 ripped( he has been 320 freaky).he always tells me just to taper and chuck the pct...now ill remind you I never said to do this I'm just telling you what he does and he's won some shows loads of trophy's , I still do a pct ,but it makes me wonder.....

I stated this is another thread:

We all know "a guy". That doesn't make it right/healthy/scietifically correct.

Someone else knew "a guy" that used the same pin for the whole cycle.

See where I'm going with this bro?

[ftony]

I stated this is another thread:

We all know "a guy". That doesn't make it right/healthy/scietifically correct.

Someone else knew "a guy" that used the same pin for the whole cycle.

See where I'm going with this bro?

I guess you just skimmed through it and didnt read what i said ...i see where you went with its all good

[zk7]

Well vermin you may be right i guess, but I do remember vividly about the study regarding the Body Shutting down natural production only proportional to Exogenous Injection.

For example, If Natural Test Levels are like 500 and you take in 100, it will not shut down all 500, on the contrary, Body will Scale Back from 500 to 400 to keep Homestatis balance so the end result is always Balance 500.

See what im saying? The misconception that if the body even smells the hint of a Exogenous compound entering it will shut down REGARDLESS of the amount you take, is completely Disinformation. I am sure of this fact as i have read thoroughly regarding Bodily shut down procedures when exogenous stuff comes in. Body aint dumb, it wont shoot itself in the foot and end up with a deficit cuz of some exogenous. Body's job is to maintain Balance and survival not to shut down and rely on outside source regardless of its exogenous intake.

[Kale]

Well vermin you may be right i guess, but I do remember vividly about the study regarding the Body Shutting down natural production only proportional to Exogenous Injection.

For example, If Natural Test Levels are like 500 and you take in 100, it will not shut down all 500, on the contrary, Body will Scale Back from 500 to 400 to keep Homestatis balance so the end result is always Balance 500.

See what im saying? The misconception that if the body even smells the hint of a Exogenous compound entering it will shut down REGARDLESS of the amount you take, is completely Disinformation. I am sure of this fact as i have read thoroughly regarding Bodily shut down procedures when exogenous stuff comes in. Body aint dumb, it wont shoot itself in the foot and end up with a deficit cuz of some exogenous. Body's job is to maintain Balance and survival not to shut down and rely on outside source regardless of its exogenous intake.

This is interesting stuff, can you show any studies that back this up ?

[zk7]

Thank you Vermin.

zk7,
I want to see your ideas in a pratical cycle format using a single compound (Test E).

Well dude, basically the idea is to do this for example :

Week 1 to 10 : Test Enanthate 500mg

And after Week 10 Begin immediatly PCT Protocol (HCG / Nolva)

And PCT do like this :

Week 11 to 16 :

Week 11 : 250mg
Week 12 : 100mg
Week 13 : 50mg
Week 14 : 25mg
Week 15 : 15mg
Week 16 : 10mg

Or something of the sort, you get the idea. Use the Test or Other Roid you are using in combination with the PCT. I think that will allow silk smooth transition without any crash or shut down or loss of libido or misery or mass loss or plumetting Test Levels. Gradual transition allowing your body to observe that Exogenous is slowly decreasing and reaching a Point where the Body has to begin producing Endogenous Production to maintain proper balance and HCG/Nolva help the body in that process to stimulate Endogenous Production at a quicker rate.

I think that should be good , i dont see the harm in doing it, its very little amount of Test to use to taper down and i see it only as beneficial to the PCT. I think all those who do Heavy Cycles for long period of time should definately do a taper like that or something because complete shut down is very hard to pop out of it overnight even with PCT. And Libido and strenght and mass is affected alot during PCT.

[zk7]

The Taper is obviously done using Test E (250mg , 100mg, 50mg, 25mg, 15mg and 10mg) using Test E or other Steroid .

[Warrior]

This is interesting stuff, can you show any studies that back this up ?

Sounds neat but its been proven - about 15 years ago when we started using post cycle drugs - to not work. Tapering went out with plaid shirts and bow-ties. You shut your system down with exogneous use... search the abstracts for testosterone replacement therapy. You can maek a man that normally had high hormone levels; function at lower levels with exogneous use that is lower than what the body would normally kick out... I have read a few articels by MD's that have done this in a clinical setting to treat patients that are hyperthyroid... giving them an amount of T3 that was lower than what they were producing naturally.

Post cycle drugs will not get the testes pumpin' out testosterone again until all exogenous interventions stops (until the last ester runs it's course), estrogen and other hormone levels must drop (they can also keep you shutdown) and the gonadtropins are properly recognized (to signal T production again). Tapering only delays recovery - possibly making it harder due to the added cycle length. Stop everyhting at the same time - then administer proper PCT.

I like the enthusiasm to try new things - but I don't see how reverting back to old methods that were found not to be productive is a step in the right direction.

[vermin]

Well vermin you may be right i guess, but I do remember vividly about the study regarding the Body Shutting down natural production only proportional to Exogenous Injection.

For example, If Natural Test Levels are like 500 and you take in 100, it will not shut down all 500, on the contrary, Body will Scale Back from 500 to 400 to keep Homestatis balance so the end result is always Balance 500.

See what im saying? The misconception that if the body even smells the hint of a Exogenous compound entering it will shut down REGARDLESS of the amount you take, is completely Disinformation. I am sure of this fact as i have read thoroughly regarding Bodily shut down procedures when exogenous stuff comes in. Body aint dumb, it wont shoot itself in the foot and end up with a deficit cuz of some exogenous. Body's job is to maintain Balance and survival not to shut down and rely on outside source regardless of its exogenous intake.

On the one hand I am concnered that this thread becomes this discussion because there was developing a quite interesting "PCT Mark II" note, with bridging and tapering being used with PCT, etc. To me that aspect of the thread seems to be something capable of moving the sport forward, while this part is beating a dead horse. OTOH, it seems that it needs beaten, so away we go.

The demonstrated effect of dose in the specific study I stated above was that it impacted how quickly the shutdown occurred, not so much the degree. So, if you can remember your study that states otherwise vividly enough to cite author, journal, date, etc. enough that it can be located, I will gladly read it.

From the paper I can cite, your taper does not generally work because for many men 100mg of test provides less test than they have naturally and yet will shut him down sufficiently that the 100mgs is essentially all he has available, and more over recovery lags behind that test being removed from his system, so the levels dip precipitously if allowed to recover naturally. Yes, your taper softens that fall a bit, but only a bit. Again, if you can provide a contrary reference I would be glad to review it.

I think a more interesting test of the "old school" taper method, esp. since this is purported to work so well with pros and other advanced types would be something like:

150mg prop, 100mg tren , 75mg masteron ED, 300 mg deca 2X/week, .5 cabergoline 2X/ week

What would the non-PCT old school taper be for that? What do you suppose the natty levels would be at each stage of the taper? As a hint: deca is among those substances shown that there merest whiff of which shuts down natty test for a good long while, at least according to the references I can cite....

[Swifto]

Endogenous testoserone production will resume when androgen/estrogen/progesterone levels in the Hypothalamus decline. How much is needed to resume endogenous production? Who knows?

YOUR Hypothalamus...I guess....

[Warrior]

Endogenous testoserone production will resume when androgen/estrogen/progesterone levels in the Hypothalamus decline. How much is needed to resume endogenous production? Who knows?

YOUR Hypothalamus...I guess....

These hormones must decline, but also... exogenous support all the way down to a simple replacement dose is not going to get the HPTA pumpin' out signals to produce it's own T again. You simply can not begin any recovery naturally when you are intervening with your own hormone injections. Tapering only delays the cycle's end and keeps the testes dormant for that much more time...

Proper PCT drugs were a major break through for those using anabolic steroids in supraphysiological doses for performance enhancing effects...

[marcus300]

Many on here will say its old school but pyramiding the dose at the end of cycle is sometimes a great advantage for some of us, if your at a stage were every lb of muscle tissue is getting harder to obtain and recovering your HPTA is getting longer and longer then tapering the dose is a great benefit, ive seen this many times either with myself or clients,

Tapering a dose at the end of a cycle does have great benefits in some, BB's who suffer from the withdrawel of test from their system, many suffer from muscle loss and have problems recovering this protocol is a must IMHO, tapering slowly after cycle helps with libido issues,depression,acne and muscle loss plus many more issues surrounding withdrawel,

Ive used many different ways af tapering but for me the best way is during a normal cycle i would start to drop the compounds off (like in any cycle end)until am left with the base of the cycle which would be test for me, then i would start to taper down the test, by how much? this depends on how much your taking on how much taper you should drop, this slow taper helps with many problems and i dont care what people may say about your still suppressed or shut down on 150mg per wk as you would be on 2000mg per wk, because in my experience you can bring yourself back up alot easier when you have tapered down to a low amount of mg per wk than when running a high amount and suddenly stopping and go into pct, well on paper it might not look so but running does seem to help with withdrawel systems You just feel better,

Tapering at the start of a cycle is a no no but at the end its worth a try if you suffer from some of the problem up above,

[SVTMuscle*]

Good post Marcus. So what your saying, not every needs to taper, just those who feel it would be more difficult to recover their HPTA, and would have a harsher time with sides such as acne, and libido. Because I know I will suffer horrible acne when comming off, so maybe tapering would be a good idea for someone in my position.

[Swifto]

Good post Marcus. So what your saying, not every needs to taper, just those who feel it would be more difficult to recover their HPTA, and would have a harsher time with sides such as acne, and libido. Because I know I will suffer horrible acne when comming off, so maybe tapering would be a good idea for someone in my position.

Definitely.

I'll be trying this method when cycling testosterone in its larger esters oneday.

Another option is to inject long esters ED or EOD and keep more stable blood plasma levels than a short ester injected the same frequency.

[SVTMuscle*]

Definitely.

I'll be trying this method when cycling testosterone in its larger esters oneday.

Another option is to inject long esters ED or EOD and keep more stable blood plasma levels than a short ester injected the same frequency.

So like, 165mg EOD of Test to equal just about 500mg of test E a week oppose to 2, 250mg shots.
I never really understood how to balence how EOD shots on a 7 day week so its even
Mon, Wed,Fri,Sun? But then you shoot again monday? or do you rotate, just EOD throughout? Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tues, Thurs, Sat, etc etc?

[marcus300]

Good post Marcus. So what your saying, not every needs to taper, just those who feel it would be more difficult to recover their HPTA, and would have a harsher time with sides such as acne, and libido. Because I know I will suffer horrible acne when comming off, so maybe tapering would be a good idea for someone in my position.

If you suffer from withdrawal symptoms from test then yes it will be of great advantage

[SVTMuscle*]

If you suffer from withdrawal symptoms from test then yes it will be of great advantage

GREAT to know thanks! Maybe I wont look like a 14 yr old boy hitting puberty when i come off then

[Swifto]

So like, 165mg EOD of Test to equal just about 500mg of test E a week oppose to 2, 250mg shots.
I never really understood how to balence how EOD shots on a 7 day week so its even
Mon, Wed,Fri,Sun? But then you shoot again monday? or do you rotate, just EOD throughout? Mon, Wed, Fri, Sun, Tues, Thurs, Sat, etc etc?

Correct.

Though many in the UK seem to think Mon/Wed/Fri is as effective as EOD. Never understood that one.

[marcus300]

GREAT to know thanks! Maybe I wont look like a 14 yr old boy hitting puberty when i come off then

I knew a guy who had the same bad sides coming off a cycle and when we designed a taper down and implemented it at the end of cycle he didnt get no were near as bad sides and he still uses a taper to this day, he did suffer depression and low sex drive aswell and he feels alot better with tapering then pct

[SVTMuscle*]

I knew a guy who had the same bad sides coming off a cycle and when we designed a taper down and implemented it at the end of cycle he didnt get no were near as bad sides and he still uses a taper to this day, he did suffer depression and low sex drive aswell and he feels alot better with tapering then pct

wait so if you taper... you dont need a pct?

[marcus300]

wait so if you taper... you dont need a pct?

when taper ends you start pct, yes you need pct, taper only helps with withdrawels of test

[SVTMuscle*]

when taper ends you start pct, yes you need pct, taper only helps with withdrawels of test

Oh ok, so for instance if your cycle is 12 weeks of Test E @ 500mg

1-12 Test E @ 500mg
13 Test E @ 300mg
14 Test E @ 100mg
15 PCT?