Why Do People stop Their Cycle COLD TURKEY? Why not just Wein Off it? To avoid crash?

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 05:21 PM

Why Do People stop Their Cycle COLD TURKEY? Why not just Wein Off it? To avoid crash?

Why not simply take like example :

500mg Test E Weekly for 10 Weeks.

And after Week 10, Wein Off it by simply gradually decreasing the dosing each week.

Like 300mg Week 11, 200mg Week 10 , 100mg Week 9 All the while taking HCG and PCT therapy While you Wein off. This to prevent any Crash at all and losing gains.

Why not come off it slowly? than Suddenly stopping completely? PCT is not strong enough to restore test levels in 4 weeks. So why not decrease Test slowly.

**Swifto** · 01-09-2007, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by zk7

Why Do People stop Their Cycle COLD TURKEY? Why not just Wein Off it? To avoid crash?

Why not simply take like example :

500mg Test E Weekly for 10 Weeks.

And after Week 10, Wein Off it by simply gradually decreasing the dosing each week.

Like 300mg Week 11, 200mg Week 10 , 100mg Week 9 All the while taking HCG and PCT therapy While you Wein off. This to prevent any Crash at all and losing gains.

Why not come off it slowly? than Suddenly stopping completely? PCT is not strong enough to restore test levels in 4 weeks. So why not decrease Test slowly.

Very good question and it something that intrests me.

If I use Enan or any longer acting Testerone again, I will try this method.

Could it also reduce sides, like acne during PCT? Could it also make HPTA recovery easier?

I know a few of the user's/member son here do it and say it works. There was a discussion on this recently.

**VinceRKG** · 01-09-2007, 05:33 PM

Hmmm.....I am about to start my Test E 500mg a week and Dbol at 20mg a day, That would be a good thing to do with this cycle, So you would stop start the HCG and Clomid when you hit the 100mg spot? I see. Thanks for the info.

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 05:58 PM

Well think about it, just like taking ANY MEDICATION from your doctor, any prescription medication, Does your doctor tell you to start at say 50mg Of whatever med from day 1 ? No he tells you to start low dose and slowly increase your dose. And when you come off the med, he tells you to come off it slowly to avoid any harsh side effects.

So why not start Test slowly? Like starting HRT Dose 250mg? And then gradually increase to 500mg per week or whatever you stay on.

And most importantly when coming off the Cycle, why not simply come off it slowly, reducing small amounts every week All the while taking PCT therapy in combination, allowing your body the time to come back to normal and restore natural testosterone production and you avoid losing gains and hitting depression.

I fear PCT is not strong enough to really restart things like they were. Quitting Cold Turkey is terribly bad for Side effects and Body shut down of Test.

I don't know who ever invented the idea of stopping Cold Turkey and doing PCT after. Sounds stupid if you ask me. Stopping cold turkey is the Worse way to come off Anything as you will face horrendous side effects and frankly PCT won't cut it to patch things up.

**T3/T4 GSR** · 01-09-2007, 06:03 PM

Well I think a long ester will slowly come down on its own over the course of 2 weeks or so.

**hosam4ever** · 01-09-2007, 06:07 PM

somtimes i went on heavy cycle with many compounds say for example test deca dbol with high doses i start one week prior the cycle by taking low doses of test like 250 & it works for me better than starting heavy but everyone is different

**VinceRKG** · 01-09-2007, 06:07 PM

I didnt know you can take PCT while still on cycle. Isnt that why it is called, PCT?

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 06:11 PM

There is many people who take HCG While on Cycle to prevent shut down of Test.

In fact i read that HRT Dosing for Men is at 250mg every 2 weeks and they don't start at 250mg off the bat, they start like 100mg only every 2 weeks and slowly increase. And when they come off they decrease slowly.

It's really stupid how people Frontload 1 gram off the bat, and then come off the cycle cold turkey after months on it and then expect HCG or Clomid to save them, ya right, HCG and clomid wont save nothing when your body is shut down like that, only time will.

**Kale** · 01-09-2007, 06:12 PM

I always wean off a cycle, the sides are greatly reduced for me if I do it that way

**Ufa** · 01-09-2007, 06:17 PM

Originally Posted by zk7

Why Do People stop Their Cycle COLD TURKEY? Why not just Wein Off it? To avoid crash?

Why not simply take like example :

500mg Test E Weekly for 10 Weeks.

And after Week 10, Wein Off it by simply gradually decreasing the dosing each week.

Like 300mg Week 11, 200mg Week 10 , 100mg Week 9 All the while taking HCG and PCT therapy While you Wein off. This to prevent any Crash at all and losing gains.

Why not come off it slowly? than Suddenly stopping completely? PCT is not strong enough to restore test levels in 4 weeks. So why not decrease Test slowly.

I'm from the old school. The dianabol days. We had no other way. I've
always gone off deca first, continued AI's and GH and never even had
to do PCT. Much easier to come off 150 or 200 mg test multiple
aas. The old philoposy might be returning as some have excellent
results. I guess its just a personal thing. What works for me.

***perfectbeast2001*** · 01-09-2007, 06:21 PM

tapering dose is growing in popularity again as many feel it helps with sides when coming off. PCT would still be required as even low doses of most compounds totally supress you.

**Jason865** · 01-09-2007, 06:23 PM

The "Non" taper idea is that steroids have a half life so they taper themselves down, I do not really agree with that opinion so I do taper one or two weeks in the end....for example.

1-8 750mg Test, 400mg Deca
9 500mg Test, 200mg Deca
10 250mg test

But thats just me, most guys I know think it is worthless.

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 06:44 PM

Well ALL MEDICATION have half lives and NO they don't taper off by themselves, that's just silly.

PPL who don't like to start low dose and and get off cycle by tappering are usually super impatient, they Front Load mega doses and stop cold turkey to save cash, thats really stupid because you lose alot of gains when you stop cold turkey.

Infact i bet in HRT, people who get prescribed Testosterone they don't even do PCT they just tapper off slowly week by week and by default their body increases their natural production to meet normal stable levels slowly.

For example, someone who takes lets say an Anti Depressant Like Paxil and starts at mega dose, he will suffer greatly and if he quits cold turkey after months, he will basically shoot himself. Same principle applies for all meds, including testosterone which is a medication.

All the noobs who start cycles, they should not start on high dose and they should definately taper off and not quit cold turkey.

BG · 01-09-2007, 06:56 PM

I always taper, had better results with pct.

**wes cst rydr** · 01-09-2007, 06:58 PM

thats funny this came up because i just started my test e ,deca ,d bol 2 weeks ago and tapering my deca.was gonna taper my test by one shot at the end. did my first like that because thats how it was explained but the last was no taper,and this one wanted to try it. i havent seen any big probs either way yet.

**Tbone1975** · 01-09-2007, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by zk7

Why Do People stop Their Cycle COLD TURKEY? Why not just Wein Off it? To avoid crash?

Why not simply take like example :

500mg Test E Weekly for 10 Weeks.

And after Week 10, Wein Off it by simply gradually decreasing the dosing each week.

Like 300mg Week 11, 200mg Week 10 , 100mg Week 9 All the while taking HCG and PCT therapy While you Wein off. This to prevent any Crash at all and losing gains.

Why not come off it slowly? than Suddenly stopping completely? PCT is not strong enough to restore test levels in 4 weeks. So why not decrease Test slowly.

I agree all the way. My second cycle was a disaster because I wanted to see what would happen if I didn't taper down before PCT. I gained a lot during it, and lost even more when coming off. I've wondered that same damn thing for a long time. A lot of guys write up cycles with a set amount of weeks at a specific dose, then PCT, with no mention of tapering.

**longhorn814** · 01-09-2007, 07:15 PM

The problem with tapering is that you are already shut down and slowly reducing the amount you are taking each week isnt gonna help restart your natural test production. The reason people used to taper is b/c they believed by slowly reducing the amount every week, it will slowly kick start their natural test production again, which most likely isnt the case. Your body gets shut down b/c it detects the exogenous hormones and it will remain that way until the amount of hormone in your body gets really low. Thus the reason you need to wait 14 days after an enanthate ester to start PCT. If you start sooner, most likely you blood hormone concentrations will be too high and your PCT compounds will not be working. Its been proven that as little as 100mg of deca can shut you down completely!! This is partly the reason why I only run short acting compounds instead of long acting.

**king6** · 01-09-2007, 07:17 PM

So if you were doing 2 shots a week on a twelve week cycle would you taper the last week or the last 2 weeks, and by how much?

**king6** · 01-09-2007, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by longhorn814

The problem with tapering is that you are already shut down and slowly reducing the amount you are taking each week isnt gonna help restart your natural test production. The reason people used to taper is b/c they believed by slowly reducing the amount every week, it will slowly kick start their natural test production again, which most likely isnt the case. Your body gets shut down b/c it detects the exogenous hormones and it will remain that way until the amount of hormone in your body gets really low. Thus the reason you need to wait 14 days after an enanthate ester to start PCT. If you start sooner, most likely you blood hormone concentrations will be too high and your PCT compounds will not be working. Its been proven that as little as 100mg of deca can shut you down completely!! This is partly the reason why I only run short acting compounds instead of long acting.

That is true, you would have to taper to a very low amount of test. Then what would be the point, you lose a week or two of your cycle. I still think an agressive PCT with nolva, clomid, clen , and maybe proviron would be sufficient for restarting your HPTA.

**bently** · 01-09-2007, 07:21 PM

well i guess im really old school the first time i did juice years ago the only pct we had was hcg and most of the time i couldnt get that. so we started with low doses of whatever you had then increased to a peak dose around week 5or 6 or about halfway through your cycle then tapered off. and for the most part i never even knew what side effects were. id hear about gyno, low sex drive. ect., but never really exp. those problems myself. so im thinking slow in slow out is still a good idea.?

**longhorn814** · 01-09-2007, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by king6

That is true, you would have to taper to a very low amount of test. Then what would be the point, you lose a week or two of your cycle. I still think an agressive PCT with nolva, clomid, clen, and maybe proviron would be sufficient for restarting your HPTA.

which is why during those two weeks or so between the last long ester shot and start of PCT, I would always run a low dose of prop or suspension so you dont lose anytime off your cycle.

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 07:57 PM

The reason why people think Tapering is not worth it is because they are using mega doses of Testosterone to begin with and other steroids . So clearly the body will maybe shutdown whether you use 250mg or 500mg simply because that's already too high amount to begin with. But it does not hurt to taper down 100mg then 50mg then 25mg, im 100% sure that low doses like 100mg will help your body restart production, simply because The body shuts down when exogenous testosterone surpasses what is needed, so it shuts down.

However, if you reduce the exogenous slowly to below levels your body usual runs on, it will by default start producing its own and side effects will dissapear.

So why the hell not take low dose of Testosterone as part of the PCT? Sounds logical to me. After all i read that HRT therapy for men they take only 250mg Test every 2 weeks. So we are talking very low dose here.

And it won't cost much either to use small amounts of Test to taper off, it eases off the side effects of PCT, i don't see any harm in it and i see it as greatly safe and beneficial.

All i know is quitting cold turkey is a nightmare and PCT simply dont cut it.

**Stackertoo** · 01-09-2007, 08:20 PM

This truly is the old school way to do it, but as was said earlier, most medications are to be tapered off.
Health>Gains
Reduced sides is a great benefit if it works for you.
I always have done this, even when it was not popular on this board.

**longhorn814** · 01-09-2007, 08:21 PM

a 100mg of exongenous test is about 10x more than what the body naturally produces..you will still be shut down!!! 250mg every 2 weeks as part of HRT seems normal b/c of the long half life of the enanthate or cypionate ester. Remember that people on HRT are taking it for different reasons, i.e. they have naturally low testosterone . If you want to restart your natural test production, you need to let the exogenous test clear your system. I never quit cold turkey when I ran long esters, I always ran a low dose of prop or suspension (something that clears quickly) and then go into PCT...works well for me. Have had blood work to prove that it works well for me too

**guest589745** · 01-09-2007, 08:26 PM

Doesn't make sense in that aspect considering you will be suppressed/shutdown by the end of the cycle definately if not a week or even days in.

**guest589745** · 01-09-2007, 08:27 PM

Tapering up to see how you react adn what you can handle makes more sense IMO.

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 08:32 PM

If that other guy said that 100mg Of Test is 10X more than what your body produces then why not take 5mg of Test in PCT? to aid in recovery.

Just trying to find ways to smooth recovery times.

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 08:34 PM

There seems to be conflicting report about how much the body actual produces or has Test on a weekly basis. So based on that number, youd assume taking some would help restart your system back and eliminate any sides.

**Stackertoo** · 01-09-2007, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by Skullsmasher

Tapering up to see how you react adn what you can handle makes more sense IMO.

Thus the name "pyramiding". Or however the hell you spell it...
Ease into it and let the body slowly adapt to the reduced levels.
Near the end of the taper, the amounts should slightly suppress, not totally shut down.
This not talking about going from 1g or 750mg down to 500 mg for 1 week and then 250mg for a week or two. You have to go even lower. And over a longer time. And I do mix PCT with super low doses.

**king6** · 01-09-2007, 08:41 PM

I still don't see what is wrong with an agressive PCT. Clomid and nolva help to boost your bodies natural production, Nolva can boost test levels bt 150%. Proviron is also a great test booster, combined with clen which is an anti catabolic to help prevent muscle breakdown, and keeping calories high, I don't see why you would need to taper.

**longhorn814** · 01-09-2007, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by zk7

If that other guy said that 100mg Of Test is 10X more than what your body produces then why not take 5mg of Test in PCT? to aid in recovery.

Just trying to find ways to smooth recovery times.

the problem is there is no easy way of determing how much test your body produces when its back to normal. There is a range of values which defines "normal" testosterone values. But I strongly believe you do NOT want to be taking any type of exogenous hormones if youre trying to recover HPTA. If you want to try those types of things, I recommend you have blood work done once a week to see what is going on with your body. Not everybodys body is the same. Some people have all kinds of sides during PCT, while others do not. Im one of those lucky ones that hasnt had many sides or problems during PCT.

**longhorn814** · 01-09-2007, 08:51 PM

Originally Posted by Stackertoo

Thus the name "pyramiding". Or however the hell you spell it...
Ease into it and let the body slowly adapt to the reduced levels.
Near the end of the taper, the amounts should slightly suppress, not totally shut down.
This not talking about going from 1g or 750mg down to 500 mg for 1 week and then 250mg for a week or two. You have to go even lower. And over a longer time. And I do mix PCT with super low doses.

the problem with pyramiding is that it causes large fluctuations in your blood hormone levels, which increases the likelihood of side effects. You want to maintain constant blood hormone values to reduce side effects IMO. After 10 weeks or so, you are still shut down and tapering the dose down will still keep you shut down. You will have to get down to very very low values before your body starts to produce its own test again.

**reppedout1** · 01-09-2007, 08:55 PM

i was always under the impression that after the last shot of a long ester the test itself as the days go by leading up to pct becomes weaker.like say ur last shot was 250 mg enth,5 days later that 250 mg would become say 150 mgs,day 9 50 mgs,etc kinda self tapering?

**Stackertoo** · 01-09-2007, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by longhorn814

the problem with pyramiding is that it causes large fluctuations in your blood hormone levels, which increases the likelihood of side effects. You want to maintain constant blood hormone values to reduce side effects IMO. After 10 weeks or so, you are still shut down and tapering the dose down will still keep you shut down. You will have to get down to very very low values before your body starts to produce its own test again.

That's the idea, amigo.
I had my best PCT after a 20-weeker by going low dose Clomid, A-dex and Tamox. I was taking next to nothing by the end, and the transition went smoothe as silk.

**zk7** · 01-09-2007, 09:07 PM

The "half life" of Test is hardly Self tappering. Why not take 5mg of Test in PCT to boost test levels. Also Clomid/nolva hardly force your body to produce its own test, all they do is make more available by suppressing estrogen.

ONLY HCG actually stimulates your body to actually produce more Testosterone . And even then HCG is said to be expiremental and may not be optimal anyways.

As if ANY medication, natural production always shut down. Whether you take say Prozac, your serotonin production decreases, or Wellbutrin, your dopamine production decreases. You increase slowly and decrease slowly.

**Wizeguy** · 01-09-2007, 09:12 PM

Interesting read. I have tappered in the past and never did PCT. But 12 years ago I wasnt using nearly the dosages we do now, at least I wasnt. I found that my last cycle My libido never fully came back. Maybe a slight tapper will help?

**king6** · 01-09-2007, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by zk7

The "half life" of Test is hardly Self tappering. Why not take 5mg of Test in PCT to boost test levels. Also Clomid/nolva hardly force your body to produce its own test, all they do is make more available by suppressing estrogen.

ONLY HCG actually stimulates your body to actually produce more Testosterone . And even then HCG is said to be expiremental and may not be optimal anyways.

As if ANY medication, natural production always shut down. Whether you take say Prozac, your serotonin production decreases, or Wellbutrin, your dopamine production decreases. You increase slowly and decrease slowly.

Nolva doesn't suppress estrogen, nolva is a synthetic estrogen which competes for the receptor against real estrogen. But nolva does boost your bodies natural testosterone production. HCG does a good job as well, and so does proviron .

**Stackertoo** · 01-09-2007, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by zk7

The "half life" of Test is hardly Self tappering. Why not take 5mg of Test in PCT to boost test levels. Also Clomid/nolva hardly force your body to produce its own test, all they do is make more available by suppressing estrogen.

ONLY HCG actually stimulates your body to actually produce more Testosterone . And even then HCG is said to be expiremental and may not be optimal anyways.

As if ANY medication, natural production always shut down. Whether you take say Prozac, your serotonin production decreases, or Wellbutrin, your dopamine production decreases. You increase slowly and decrease slowly.

Well said.
And HCG is great for finishing out the last month of a cycle at low dose.

**longhorn814** · 01-09-2007, 09:21 PM

Originally Posted by zk7

The "half life" of Test is hardly Self tappering. Why not take 5mg of Test in PCT to boost test levels. Also Clomid/nolva hardly force your body to produce its own test, all they do is make more available by suppressing estrogen.

ONLY HCG actually stimulates your body to actually produce more Testosterone . And even then HCG is said to be expiremental and may not be optimal anyways.

As if ANY medication, natural production always shut down. Whether you take say Prozac, your serotonin production decreases, or Wellbutrin, your dopamine production decreases. You increase slowly and decrease slowly.

actually clomid and nolva stimulate LH and FSH, which in turn stimulate your body to release testosterone.

HCG is similar to LH and b/c they are similar, LH binds to receptors on leydig cells stimulating synthesis and secretion of testosterone

Half life by definition is the time required for the disappearance or decay of one-half of a given component in a system. Even if you taper down your doses, you still need to wait the appropriate time (14 days if enanthate ) to start PCT b/c too much of the hormone will still be active in your system

**Stackertoo** · 01-09-2007, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by longhorn814

actually clomid and nolva stimulate LH and FSH, which in turn stimulate your body to release testosterone .

HCG is similar to LH and b/c they are similar, LH binds to receptors on leydig cells stimulating synthesis and secretion of testosterone

Half life by definition is the time required for the disappearance or decay of one-half of a given component in a system. Even if you taper down your doses, you still need to wait the appropriate time (14 days if enanthate) to start PCT b/c too much of the hormone will still be active in your system

I actually pyramid the Comid. Starting before I completely cease use of AAS. Call it a jump start, if you will. Tamox and A-dex run pretty consistently throughout.