what with deca to maintain Natural Test levels

[Eagleized2]

what can be used with deca to make up for the decrease in testosterone levels Deca causes. would nolvadex work to combat testosterone suppression?
or what other Chemical Besides Test E can help maintain Natural levels of Testosterone while using Deca?
What Dosage of Test E would null the suppression of testosterone caused by Deca.. say in a 400mg Deca /week dosage.

[Getbig06]

what can be used with deca to make up for the decrease in testosterone levels Deca causes. would nolvadex work to combat testosterone loss?
or what other Chemical Besides Test E can help maintain Natural levels of Testosterone while using Deca?

Test Cyp, prop or suspension. Oh and it's not a decrease, it's suppression deca causes.

[JohnboyF]

I thought u were adviced not to cycle?

[Getbig06]

I thought u were adviced not to cycle?

Was he? My bad for responding.

[Eagleized2]

I thought u were adviced not to cycle?

I ask because i was wondering if it was possible to maintain a Natural level of Testosterone while using Deca for its medicinal and overall health enhancing benefits. without the raging Testosterone levels

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199789

[shrpskn]

Nandrolone is going to "shut down" your natty test...no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[Swifto]

Nandrolone is going to "shut down" your natty test...no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

AGREED.

"Deca to maintain natural testosterone levels"...

Thats got to be up there with the stupid things I've ever heard.

You should NOT be cycling or THINKING about it. Your knowledge on AS is VERY limited.

[JohnboyF]

NO prob

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=279434

[Eagleized2]

what are the sides of that? happening. sounds pretty bad

[stupidhippo]

health benefits of nandrolone??? thats a good way to explain to urself that u need gear..

[Eagleized2]

Also, I’ve read many places that Deca stores water in connective tissue, thus alleviating joint pain. I have no idea what “storing water in the joints” means. I have no idea how to really quantify that statement, or where it started. However, in one study of postmenapusal women, Deca impoved collagen synthesis(1), and in another study deca increased bone mineral content. (2)Both of these studies used VERY low doses, which were far too low to promote muscle growth. In my estimation, based on these 2 studies, an athlete attempting to use Deca only for these two effects (increasing bone mineral content and collagen synthesis) should be using 100mgs of deca every week. That’s actually a higher dose than those two studies used successfully. Even at ½ of this dose, in HIV+ patients who have experienced significant wasting, a 100mg/E2W (every 2 weeks) injection of Deca resulted in a “significant increase in weight” (5). I’d never recommend that low of a dose for an athlete, but it’s evidence of Deca’s strong anabolic properties. Deca is a very nice anabolic, causing nice (albeit slow) gains in quality muscle. This could be due to its moderately strong binding to the Androgen Receptor, or its many positive non-Androgen-Receptor mediated effects. One such effect is nitrogen retention, which is a major factor in muscle growth and lean mass gains…in one study, with low-doses (65 mg/week) and high-doses of Deca (200 mg/week), both low-doses and high-doses resulted in significant nitrogen retention (33-52 g nitrogen/14 days, representing gains of 0.5 to 0.9 kg lean tissue/week), and body weight increased by 4.9 +/- 1.2 kg, including 3.1 +/- 0.5 kg lean body mass, and treadmill exercise performance (cardiovascular fitness) also improved (7).

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=199789

[zodiac666]

step 1 - make up a diet and post it in the diet section so we can help you fine tune it

step 2 - make up a workout schedule and post it in the workout section so we can help make sure you're on track

taking any AAS would be a huge mistake for you right now, you would be amazed at the gains you could make right now just by training seriously and following a good diet. once you have been working out seriously for a while and your gains start to slow down then you can use AAS to push yourself past the plateau.

good luck, you're only 19 and im not flaming but it does look like you have never touched a weight in your life. your natural test levels are very high right now, if you get your diet and training in order you would see excellent gains within 4 weeks guaranteed!!

[Eagleized2]

i'm asking what can be taken with Deca to maintain a natural Testosterone level. in essence trick my body into thinking its natural but reap the benefits of deca without throwing my Test levels out of wack which; i agree would be a very bad thing at my age since i'm already producing high levels of testosterone.

[stupidhippo]

i'm asking what can be taken with Deca to maintain a natural Testosterone level. in essence trick my body into thinking its natural but reap the benefits of deca without throwing my Test levels out of wack which; i agree would be a very bad thing at my age since i'm already producing high levels of testosterone.

ur reasoning here sux... the only way u could maintain ur own production is HCG but that would still screw up ur HPTA (and in the end ur own production -with the cessation of HCG)

[Swifto]

ur reasoning here sux... the only way u could maintain ur own production is HCG but that would still screw up ur HPTA (and in the end ur own production -with the cessation of HCG)

There is no way one can maintain endogenous testosterone production when using something like Test Enan or a 19-Nor like Deca...Impossible.

HCG will not do this. But simply maintain ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone), which stops your ballocks from turning to peas, to put it scientifically.

[stupidhippo]

There is no way one can maintain endogenous testosterone production when using something like Test Enan or a 19-Nor like Deca...Impossible.

HCG will not do this. But simply maintain ITT (Intra-Testicular Testosterone), which stops your ballocks from turning to peas, to put it scientifically.

u are wrong. u cannot maintain the HPTA's function BUT u can maintain endogenous testosterone production.. which only mean testosterone produced by the organism... there is even an estimated amount of HCG that keep up the endogenous test production at a norm...

[Swifto]

u are wrong. u cannot maintain the HPTA's function BUT u can maintain endogenous testosterone production.. which only mean testosterone produced by the organism... there is even an estimated amount of HCG that keep up the endogenous test production at a norm...

What function are we talking about?

Studies state ITT can be maintained using Test Enan (200mg/wk) and HCG. Not endogenous testosterone production?

You have lost me...

[Diablo10000]

u dont need AS..u need FOOD( the best steroid) lots of bros told u not to cycle until u have a proper diet and training plan...listen to them....u will only waste AS and $$$

[stupidhippo]

nitrogen retention non-AR mediated???? I really think its at least partly AR mediated since nitrogen retention pretty much equals muscle gain... Nitrogen retention means more nitrogen is being eaten than excreted and the only place that takes it in is muscles... weird logic in the eagle quote earlier..

also the healh benefits u talk about arent imo really health benefits to a normal sporty young male unless in special circumstances... Using deca to lubricate joints is usually pointless if u are not using any other gear.. or atleast the minor positive effects are being far outweighed with the possible bad ones.

[Swifto]

Coviello AD, Matsumoto AM, Bremner WJ, et al. Low-dose human chorionic gonadotropin maintains intratesticular testosterone in normal men with testosterone-induced gonadotropin suppression. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2005;90(5):2595-602.

ABSTRACT

In previous studies of testicular biopsy tissue from healthy men, intratesticular testosterone (ITT) has been shown to be much higher than serum testosterone (T), suggesting that high ITT is needed relative to serum T for normal spermatogenesis in men. However, the quantitative relationship between ITT and spermatogenesis is not known. To begin to address this issue experimentally, we determined the dose-response relationship between human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) and ITT to ascertain the minimum dose needed to maintain ITT in the normal range. Twenty-nine men with normal reproductive physiology were randomized to receive 200 mg T enanthate weekly in combination with either saline placebo or 125, 250, or 500 IU hCG every other day for 3 wk. ITT was assessed in testicular fluid obtained by percutaneous fine needle aspiration at baseline and at the end of treatment. Baseline serum T (14.1 nmol/liter) was 1.2% of ITT (1174 nmol/liter). LH and FSH were profoundly suppressed to 5% and 3% of baseline, respectively, and ITT was suppressed by 94% (1234 to 72 nmol/liter) in the T enanthate/placebo group. ITT increased linearly with increasing hCG dose (P < 0.001). Posttreatment ITT was 25% less than baseline in the 125 IU hCG group, 7% less than baseline in the 250 IU hCG group, and 26% greater than baseline in the 500 IU hCG group. These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression. Extensions of this study will allow determination of the ITT concentration threshold required to maintain spermatogenesis in man.

[stupidhippo]

[COLOR="Navy"]These results demonstrate that relatively low dose hCG maintains ITT within the normal range in healthy men with gonadotropin suppression.

this only states that realtively low dose of HCG is needed to keep ITT in normal range = keep endogenous test production in normal range.. Now exogenous test might possibly interfere with this equation a little (dont know to what degree does serum test effect ITT) but for our purposes we can say from this study that relatively low dose of HCG will maintain endogenous test production in normal range..

[Swifto]

this only states that realtively low dose of HCG is needed to keep ITT in normal range = keep endogenous test production in normal range.. Now exogenous test might possibly interfere with this equation a little (dont know to what degree does serum test effect ITT) but for our purposes we can say from this study that relatively low dose of HCG will maintain endogenous test production in normal range..

No...It doesnt state this. It states ITT can be maintained. No where does it state endogenous testosterone production can be maintained/increased on a cycle.

ITT is responsible for testicular mass.

[stupidhippo]

yes.. i dont think ill need it.. many ppl in here should be able to varify what i said, knowledgable bros... the ones whose word ull take..

[Swifto]

Why does there need to be GnRH for LH to work?

[Swifto]

Ok got it.

[Eagleized2]

So GnRH + HCG (assuming that HPTA has shut down) in theory could null the suppression effects of Deca. leaving you with a relatively Natural Testosterone levels for you age. what problematic side effects would or could this cause?

[Eagleized2]

there have got to be other hormones out there which stimulate increased testosterone production.

LH is a relatively common hormone receptor

[stupidhippo]

could u send those links to where u got that information cause I have always read that HCG acts like LH in the testes.. maybe u are right then but need some sort of facts to back it up.. ill try to dig myself..

[Swifto]

but how can ITT increase when no more test is being produces.. endogenous test = test that is produces by the body... im gonna do a lil research now about exactly how the HCG works in the testis etc... yeah good discussion. always nice to learn sumin new...

on a side note: I have seen protocols of HCG dosages to use on a cycle that
should hold the endogenous test at HRT rate..

also GnRH analogues do exist.. (if someone said they dont), used is prostate cancer.. (if I remember correctly and I should..)

This would be good to see if you got the studies etc...

Very intriguing.

[stupidhippo]

also could u specify more on the fact that if ITT is increased how that cannot increase endogenouos testosterone production.. is the retention of T in the testis somehow enforced?

[Eagleized2]

need to know exactly which hormones are suppressed by Deca also. wether its LH Testosterone or ITT or both.

[Swifto]

need to know exactly which hormones are suppressed by Deca also. wether its LH Testosterone or ITT or both.

I'd assume, GnRH is the first to be "shutdown". Then LH/FSH and T.

[stupidhippo]

definition of HCG'ss function in some source: Because of its similarity to LH, hCG can also be used clinically to induce ovulation in the ovaries as well as testosterone production in the testes. As the most abundant biological source is women who are presently pregnant, some organizations collect urine from gravidae to extract hCG for use in fertility treatment.

also in my pharmacology manual it says that pregny (HCG) is used in treating hypogonadotropic hypogonadism.

ive been trying to dig and this is what I found so far: Indeed response to HCG is not very good (in regards to T production) in CDP patients (constitutional delayed puberty) BUT the mechanism is still unclear for me..

also i still havent found anything to support that ITT increase doesnt mean an increase in T production... this is interesting but really hard to dig up any facts.

here is a one article that supports what im saying to an extent:
http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/con...tract/82/2/658

[stupidhippo]

name of the article.. so they study hypogonadotropic hypogonadism patients :

Treatment of Isolated Hypogonadotropic Hypogonadism Effect on Bone Mineral Density and Bone Turnover

part of the results:
Six of the 10 patients were recruited for a longitudinal study in which the dose of hCG was increased monthly from 2000 IU twice per week to 6000 IU twice per week. After increasing doses of hCG, levels of serum testosterone and estradiol and total body BMD increased significantly

the only problem ni this it doesnt specify to which group these six patients belonged...

so far im leaning towards that if u are hypogonadotropic u might not respond to HCG treatment the same as a normal person BUT it is still unknown to me does it include AAS induced hypogonadotropism etc ... if executive would have a good link to make all things clear that would be good =)

[stupidhippo]

now this IMO supports my point of view even more:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...=pubmed_docsum

copy of conclusion:

For male patients with the central hypogonadism, hCG and hCG plus HMG can promote the pubertal development and maturation of second sex characteristics, as well as enhance the physical strength; in some patients both androgen production and spermatogenesis can be achieved. that some patients was also a large group.. read the abstract if interested..

[shrpskn]

Wow, this thread took a very interesting turn...

Great debate guys...I love threads like these.

[Eagleized2]

so back to my question about what an adolescent going through puberty could do to null the effects of Decas Testosterone Suppression. can low doses of Test E be used to combat testosterone suppression. if so, could this be something someone still going through puberty could do to maximize workouts, feel healthyer and achieve slow and steady gains while maintaining their current natural test levels. *sigh* If only deca didnt suppress testosterone...

[shrpskn]

so back to my question about what an adolescent going through puberty could do to null the effects of Decas Testosterone Suppression. can low doses of Test E be used to combat testosterone suppression. if so, could this be something someone still going through puberty could do to maximize workouts, feel healthyer and achieve slow and steady gains while maintaining their current natural test levels. *sigh* If only deca didnt suppress testosterone...

OK, now you are asking "what's an adolescent going through puberty to do"?

Now exactly how old are you?

[Eagleized2]

19
6'2
215
have been the same hight and weight for about 2 years.

[shrpskn]

Ok, I had to ask...you started to sound like a young teen in that last thread.