Effects of age on dosage

[finny]

It would make sense that the older your get, over 35 or so, one would require less in terms of dosage as his natural test production is much lower than say a 25 year old. Thus, the effect of injecting, say 500mg enanth/week would have a much stronger effect than the same dosage on a 25 year old.

Sample numbers for the sake of an example:

35 year old
free test level of 100mg
inject 500, net 400 jump

25 year old
free test level of 250mg
inject 500, net 250 jump

Makes sense? Any ideas?

[Jefferey]

It would make sense that the older your get, over 35 or so, one would require less in terms of dosage as his natural test production is much lower than say a 25 year old. Thus, the effect of injecting, say 500mg enanth/week would have a much stronger effect than the same dosage on a 25 year old.

Sample numbers for the sake of an example:

35 year old
free test level of 100mg
inject 500, net 400 jump

25 year old
free test level of 250mg
inject 500, net 250 jump

Makes sense? Any ideas?

Don't know about that..Personally I stay on 400 mgs a week when not cycling...I know that's a cycle to most. But at 59 that's what I need to stay in a range about that of a 20 yr old...When I do cycle (what I call a cycle now) I do 1 gram of test and 750 mgs of Deca or EQ.

[G-1000]

I dont inderstand what your trying to say.

We you inject you natty test is going to get shut down. So if you both run 500mg week your going to have the same amout of test levels in your system.

If your older and youe natty test levels are low you would benifit from any incress. But a hight dose will give greater gains.

[finny]

To re-phrase, when you're older, your system is used to lower free test levels. So, if you inject say 500mg it will have a greater overall effect than to someone that has greater free test level to start with and shoots the same 500mg. This could mean that older guys could start with lower dosages on the first cycle and then slowly increase with each cycle as their receptors adjust.

Another way to look at this, if I were looking at this 35 year old guy and he did 500mg vs 750mg, the level of utilization would be decreasing in proportion to the dosage and the gains with a higher dosage might be only marginally better.

I might be fishing here, but it would make sense. Same analogy as if you were doing the same test enanth injection on every cycle. If you did 500mg on the first, to continue gaining at the same level, you might have to increase the dosage to 750mg as your system got used to 500mg from the previous cycle.

[G-1000]

No it fuction with lower test levels.

What are the symptoms?

The symptoms of male menopause include depression, sadness, irritability, low libido, erectile dysfunction, anxiety, hot flushes and sweating, and memory and concentration problems.

These symptoms are also commonly caused by other conditions and are very non-specific.

Although erectile dysfunction is often due to other causes, a proportion could be due to testosterone deficiency.

[Maldorf]

personally I think it all depends on your history of AAS usage. I dont think a 25 year old first time user is going to need any different of a dose than a 40 year old first timer. Im 37 and use more than most younger guys, just becuase ive been using longer.

[finny]

Yes, as your receptors get adjusted to a given dosage, at some point one will have to start increasing the dosage to keep making decent gains.

But this might make sense for newbies. I'm 36, about to be 37 in a few weeks. For me, someone that has never done gear, would it still make sense to do 500mg of Test or 250mg would provide similar gains? I understand that test and some other compounds, the more you use, the more gains. But how much more to a newbie? Would a 37 year old newbie require the same as a 25 year old?

I mean, in the end, I'm prepared to do 500mg of test enath. Just wondering if maybe there is some correlation between age and given dosage.

[G-1000]

Yes you will see better gains from 500mg over 250mg. How much more, quit a bit. I can not give you in pounds but i would say about 30 40% more.

[G-1000]

Yes, as your receptors get adjusted to a given dosage, at some point one will have to start increasing the dosage to keep making decent gains.

But this might make sense for newbies. I'm 36, about to be 37 in a few weeks. For me, someone that has never done gear, would it still make sense to do 500mg of Test or 250mg would provide similar gains? I understand that test and some other compounds, the more you use, the more gains. But how much more to a newbie? Would a 37 year old newbie require the same as a 25 year old?

I mean, in the end, I'm prepared to do 500mg of test enath. Just wondering if maybe there is some correlation between age and given dosage.

Your receotors dont adjust. If they did you would have any one the listed problems.

[vitor]

Imo you will need minimum 300mg ew of Test for making noticebal gains whatever your age. 200-250 mg ew would be fine to avoid going catabolic in a cutting stage though.
Also, one of the most importent things to get the most out of the testosterone youre using(whatever the dose), is keeping SHBG levels low, so your free test dont get binded up and made useless.

Increased estrogen levels will directly increase SHBG,
Thats why I always use an AI.
Proviron or winstrol will be a greate addition too for lowering SHBG so you can get the full effect of the dosages youre using.

[magic32]

Imo you will need minimum 300mg ew of Test for making noticebal gains whatever your age. 200-250 mg ew would be fine to avoid going catabolic in a cutting stage though.
Also, one of the most importent things to get the most out of the testosterone youre using(whatever the dose), is keeping SHBG levels low, so your free test dont get binded up and made useless.

Increased estrogen levels will directly increase SHBG,
Thats why I always use an AI.
Proviron or winstrol will be a greate addition too for lowering SHBG so you can get the full effect of the dosages youre using.

Just wanted to clarify Vitor, that the oral Winstrol has a far greater effect than Inj., as it takes advantage of the first pass through the liver where SHBG is produced.

This is good thread Finny, I see how one could be easily confused here but your reasoning is severely flawed. Gsxx is correct here.

M.

[Jefferey]

To re-phrase, when you're older, your system is used to lower free test levels. So, if you inject say 500mg it will have a greater overall effect than to someone that has greater free test level to start with and shoots the same 500mg. This could mean that older guys could start with lower dosages on the first cycle and then slowly increase with each cycle as their receptors adjust.

Another way to look at this, if I were looking at this 35 year old guy and he did 500mg vs 750mg, the level of utilization would be decreasing in proportion to the dosage and the gains with a higher dosage might be only marginally better.

I might be fishing here, but it would make sense. Same analogy as if you were doing the same test enanth injection on every cycle. If you did 500mg on the first, to continue gaining at the same level, you might have to increase the dosage to 750mg as your system got used to 500mg from the previous cycle.

I'm not sure that point is valid...You could look at it the oither way...You being younger have a higher test count then someone older...So maybe just maybe it works the opposite. Maybe I need 700 mgs to you 300 mgs to have the same rise in test levels...Hey I'm no doctor and really I don't know....I do know how my body react on low to med to high levels of gear....200 mgs a week and I feel like shit...I even lose my sex drive on 200...400 mgs a week gives me no additional strength over even 100 mgs as where 400 mgs may give you a lot of strength and some size. Could even a family doc even answer your question...I know who might know the answer and will talk to him today...He has a PHD in biochem

[finny]

Thanks guys.

Sometimes things on paper make sense but in real life that's another story.

It seams that with AAS, more is better. But, when does it all stop? Wouldn't one expect mega doses by 10th, 15th cycle? I know that eventually one would have to up the dosage to keep on making decent gains. Mixing things up helps to - introduction of different compounds etc. But it seems that we are going in one direction - mega dosages.

Maybe at some point one reaches his ideal weight and then has to maintain that weight. Would one stick with around the same dosage at that point, just changing things up a bit?

[G-1000]

Guys

Winny has a better effect when injected. The orls is much less effected becuase of the breag doen in the digestive track and the 2 pass thow the live.

[G-1000]

Thanks guys.

Sometimes things on paper make sense but in real life that's another story.

It seams that with AAS, more is better. But, when does it all stop? Wouldn't one expect mega doses by 10th, 15th cycle? I know that eventually one would have to up the dosage to keep on making decent gains. Mixing things up helps to - introduction of different compounds etc. But it seems that we are going in one direction - mega dosages.

Maybe at some point one reaches his ideal weight and then has to maintain that weight. Would one stick with around the same dosage at that point, just changing things up a bit?

More is not alwas better because of the side effects. But over the years you body will build up a tolerance and will need a higher dose.

[magic32]

Guys

Winny has a better effect when injected. The orls is much less effected becuase of the breag doen in the digestive track and the 2 pass thow the live.

I disagree Gsxx. Winny and other compounds have greater oral impact on SHBG than inj. Here's one article with multiple supporting citations.

Winstrol - Oral versus Injectable (More Different Than You Think!)

When we take a look at a study done comparing injectable vs. oral contraceptives, we find that the oral version at 70mgs/week (10mgs/day given orally) is more effective at affecting SHBG levels than 400mgs/week given via an injection! (9)In this study, testosterone undecanoate was given at a constant dose along with norestisterone (which raises SHBG). What we see is that when norestisterone is given orally, it produces a far greater effect on SHBG, than when it is administered via an injection. And this is even when the doses of the injectable are 4x higher!

Here’s a chart, illustrating exactly what I’m talking about in this study, which I think suggests very strongly that injectable versions of drugs, when compared with the oral version, will have nowhere near as much of an effect on SHBG:

http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...injectable.htm

M.

[G-1000]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...jectable+winny

Q: There's this huge debate raging over whether or not you can "drink" your Winny-V. I know that because stanozolol is 17-AA'ed, I can use it orally. However, how much more or less effective is oral stanozolol over injected stanozolol? I hear that you need about twice as much stanozolol orally as you would injected to see similar results. How was this figure of doubling the dose orally determined?

A: There isn't a lot of great pharmacokinetic data in humans comparing oral to parenteral (injectable) stanozolol. So that idea of "if you use X amount by injection you need twice as much orally" is anecdotal and speculative at best. The best I could find is a study comparing the two methods of administration in dogs. My comments come after the abstract:

The effect of stanozolol on 15-nitrogen retention in the dog

Can J Vet Res 2000 Oct;64(4):246-8 (ISSN: 0830-9000)

Olson ME; Morck DW; Quinn KB [Find other articles with these Authors] Animal Health Unit and Gastrointestinal Sciences, University of Calgary, Alberta.

The objective of the study was to determine the influence of either oral or intramuscular administration of stanozolol on nitrogen retention in dogs by using a non-invasive 15N-amino acid tracer technique. Ten healthy, intact, adult male sled dogs received either stanozolol tablets, 2 mg/dog PO, q12h, for 25 days (Group 1, n = 5) or an intramuscular injection of 25 mg of stanozolol on Days 7, 14, 21, and 28 (Group 2, n = 5). A 15N amino acid (5.27 mmol) was infused intravenously into each dog on Day 0 (before stanozolol treatment) and on Day 31 (after stanozolol treatment). Urine was collected by catheterization from each animal 3 times daily for 3 consecutive days. The 15N-urea enrichment in urine was determined by high-resolution mass spectrometry and the total amount of urea in the urine was determined.

Both oral and injectable stanozolol resulted in significant (P < 0.05) increases in amino acid nitrogen retention compared to pretreatment values. Oral stanozolol increased nitrogen retention from 29.2 +/- 8.2% to 50.3 +/- 9.2%, while stanozolol injection increased nitrogen retention from 26.6 +/- 9.9% to 67.0 +/- 7.5%. The response to intramuscular administration was significantly greater than the response to the oral dosing regime. Stanozolol increases amino acid nitrogen retention in dogs, as has been previously observed in rats. This action of stanozolol may be beneficial in dogs under stress of surgical trauma and chronic disease.

Okay, so the oral dose was 28mg/week and the injected dose was 25mg/week. And the injected dose was far better at increasing nitrogen retention (67.0% versus 50.3%). This makes it about 33.2% better (roughly speaking), so if I extrapolate, it means to see the same effects as 25mg of injected stanozolol per week, you'd need to take about 38mg of it orally.

This isn't quite "twice the injected dose" and is, in fact, closer to 50% (52% or so actually). So if you assume the dog model is correct, or nearly so in other mammals like humans, you'd need about 50% more stanozolol orally than you would if you injected it. So if you used 50mg of injected Winstrol every other day, it would be a safe bet to assume 37.5mg of stanozolol used orally every day would provide a similar effect.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catq.htm
Question:
In your opinion, what is the best way to take Winny? Drinking the injectable aqueous solution or injecting it while varying the injection sites and does drinking the injectable aqueous solution result in the same amount of liver toxicity as the orals? BTW, I read your steroid profiles and I must compliment you on them. Nice work, Big Cat!!

Answer:
Ingesting will always give a lower yield than injecting, even with 17-alpha-alkykation. If you are drinking vials and you do a vial a day, you wouldn't note a whole lot of difference. Injecting is best for people wanting to use lower doses, they can inject once every other day. But people that take every day, would opt for oral in which case a vial (being the same compound as the tabs) is more value for money than the tabs. A single morning dose of 1 vial (50 mg) is the preferred use. Since I'm not one to recommend the pain of daily injections and I find the orals to be poor value for money, ingesting the vials is the best way to go in my opinion. At least if you go high dose.

Ingesting it means it makes two passes through the liver, when injecting only once. Obviously making a first pass makes ingesting more toxic than injecting, eventhough both compound are 17-alpha-alkylated. When ingesting I do not recommend use of Winstrol for longer than 6-8 weeks. If you go beyond six weeks its advised you get liver values tested on a regular basis. When injecting one could stretch use for 8-10 weeks, under the same prerequisite.

[magic32]

Maybe I misspoke Gsxx.

For clarity in this particular matter, let us call the oral ‘tablets’ and the injectable ‘oil’.

Firstly, I’m not arguing the case for the anabolic/androgenic potency of Winny in regard to drinking oil over injecting it. As you stated that’s a matter of some debate, and I actually prefer the latter.

Secondly, I’m only referring to the significantly different inherent properties displayed by Winny tablets and oil with regard to SHBG.

Tablets are far superior to oil with regard to diminishing SHBG within the body.

Conversely, there are other properties in which Winny oil is superior to the tablet version.

M.

[G-1000]

Oh OK...

I thoght you were stateing over all oral was better then inj

[Jefferey]

By Dr Gavin Kane..This guy post over at Pro Muscle and has a PHD in Biochem...I ask him your question but worded as such..Would a older person need more to then a younger person to get the simular results..This was his reply to me via a PM.

"You will need more of it, not only would an older person have lower test levels but everything else is run down as well. Less efficient pathways, lower conversion rate by the HPTA, less gh output by the pituitary, on and on and on. The list is long why everything requires a higher dose, the body is just generally less efficient".

[finny]

By Dr Gavin Kane..This guy post over at Pro Muscle and has a PHD in Biochem...I ask him your question but worded as such..Would a older person need more to then a younger person to get the simular results..This was his reply to me via a PM.

"You will need more of it, not only would an older person have lower test levels but everything else is run down as well. Less efficient pathways, lower conversion rate by the HPTA, less gh output by the pituitary, on and on and on. The list is long why everything requires a higher dose, the body is just generally less efficient".

Thanks Jefferey, makes sense when you consider internal system of an older vs younger person. But, I think here is the trick. Yes, proportionately an older person would need more if he expected similar results as the younger person. I thing this is key.