First Test Cycle - Prop or Enanthate???

[BlackStang]

I have done a anavar/primo cycle in the past but never a test cycle. Would like to put on around 15lb of keepable mass if possible. I was debating on using dbol instead of tbol but dont want the bloat and have heard good things about tbol. I also already have the tbol aswell as some var.

Cycle #1

1-8 Prop EO 100mg/eod - maybe bump up to 150mg/eod if dont notice significant gains
1-6 Tbol 40mg/ed for a start will probably bump up
1-8 10mg nolva/ed

Clomid PCT 3 days after last shot.

Should I run Arimidex, etc during this cycle?

or

Should I do the regular proposed first cycle:

Cycle#2

1 – 10 Enan 500mg/wk
1 – 12 Nolvadex 10mg ED
1 – 12 L-dex .25mg ED

Start PCT 2 weeks after last Enan injection.

Maybe add in tbol for first 4-6 weeks at 40mg/ed.


My question is would I notice more gains with the Enan cycle over the Prop cycle. I know enan is alot less shots but shooting doesn't bother me. Will be on a bulk diet around 3500-4000cals to start, will up if necessary.



Let me know what your thoughts are.





Thanks

[2.minutes]

cycle 2 with added t-bol would be nice and simple, wuts ur states bro?

[Swifto]

Test Prop alone will suffice. Arimidex if needed 0.5mg/EOD. Go 8 weeks if you can handle 50mg/ED or 100-150mg/EOD shots. Wish I did that as a first.

Could add Tbol at 40mg/ED for the first 4-6 weeks and adjust the dose accordingly, comparing gains/sides.

[Swifto]

If your acne prone, get some Accutane tabs to keep on hand.

[duramaxedge]

use both.. run your prop for the first 4 weeks on your test e cycle.. run your tbol with it.. Just my 2 cents.. the prop will get you going faster.. the test e will kick in 'around' week 5.. the tbol is going to increase strength and vascularity.. not so much mass.. more for lean muscle.. dbol will create some bloat.. (depending on the person i suppose) If test and dbol/tbol are the only 2 compounds you are running id keep the nolva on hand and probably run the ldex @ .25mg ed ..

again this is my 2 cents.. ::bling bling::

[cfiler]

Prop is usually not suggested for first cycles.

What is you stats, and age?

Generally, 250-500mgs of test e or c weekly, for 10-12 weeks if best for first cycles.

[mkrulic]

dont do prop for a first run. keep your blood levels as stable as possible w/ as few injects as possible. enan is a much better choice. 500mg/week is much better than 350mg/week

[2.minutes]

dont do prop for a first run. keep your blood levels as stable as possible w/ as few injects as possible. enan is a much better choice. 500mg/week is much better than 350mg/week

as far as i know prop keeps ur blood lever more stable than enan and cyp ,correct?

[duramaxedge]

keep in mind they are different esters

[mkrulic]

as far as i know prop keeps ur blood lever more stable than enan and cyp ,correct?

prop has a very short half life. that is why it is so fast acting. but fast in usually means fast out. so no, giving the same frequency of shots, enan or cyp will be more stable.

[Swifto]

as far as i know prop keeps ur blood lever more stable than enan and cyp ,correct?

It greatly depends on injection frequency of both esters.

If you want the most stable blood levels using either ester? Injecting a long ester, Cypionate or Enanthate ED or EOD will mean more stable blood plasma concentrations than injecting Propionate ED or EOD.

I did my first cycle using Enanthate and injected 2x per week (pretty standard). I also got terrible acne and scarring on my back/shoulders/chest. This may have been avoided using Propionate as when my breakouts begin I could have cleared the supraphysiological doses of Testosterone in my blood faster and kept more stable blood plasma concentraions injecting it ED or EOD, not a long ester 2x per week. Could my acne have been prevented using Propionate? I dont know, possibly.

Now, I dont like Enanthate and wont use it unless I inject it ED or EOD, but havent got round to that one yet.

Propionate will keep more stable blood plasma levels than Enanthate injected 2x per week, it will also kick in faster and exit faster. Its a superoir ester for us bodybuilders, I feel.

[mkrulic]

It greatly depends on injection frequency of both esters.

If you want the most stable blood levels using either ester? Injecting a long ester, Cypionate or Enanthate ED or EOD will mean more stable blood plasma concentrations than injecting Propionate ED or EOD.

I did my first cycle using Enanthate and injected 2x per week (pretty standard). I also got terrible acne and scarring on my back/shoulders/chest. This may have been avoided using Propionate as when my breakouts begin I could have cleared the supraphysiological doses of Testosterone in my blood faster and kept more stable blood plasma concentraions injecting it ED or EOD, not a long ester 2x per week. Could my acne have been prevented using Propionate? I dont know, possibly.

Now, I dont like Enanthate and wont use it unless I inject it ED or EOD, but havent got round to that one yet.

Propionate will keep more stable blood plasma levels than Enanthate injected 2x per week, it will also kick in faster and exit faster. Its a superoir ester for us bodybuilders, I feel.

is this shot ed, eod or 2x weekly.

[Swifto]

Gains will occur faster as the ester is shorter.

If you inject ED or EOD, you will attain more stable blood plasma levels than injecting Enan or Cyp 2x per week.

If you run into problems its easier to lower the dose gradually or stop completely, exitting in around 3-4 days.

Its more potent mg/mg than Enanthate.

It will also leave a shorter peroid from your final shot and PCT beginning. Which can help maintain labido, gains and control estrogen. You wont suffer a slow declining testosterone level for 10-16 days which you will do with Enanthate.

[Swifto]

[/B]
is this shot ed, eod or 2x weekly.

Prop is shot ED, but can be shot EOD too. Wont be much difference in gains from ED/EOD, but possibly sides.

[mkrulic]

Gains will occur faster as the ester is shorter.

If you inject ED or EOD, you will attain more stable blood plasma levels than injecting Enan or Cyp 2x per week.

If you run into problems its easier to lower the dose gradually or stop completely, exitting in around 3-4 days.

Its more potent mg/mg than Enanthate.

It will also leave a shorter peroid from your final shot and PCT beginning. Which can help maintain labido, gains and control estrogen. You wont suffer a slow declining testosterone level for 10-16 days which you will do with Enanthate.

I'd have to see the math that supprots these claims. I dont recomend prop to someone who is considering a first cycle. ed injects are too much for a novice. your forcing them to find exotic injection places which is too much for a rookie.
test enan is a great choice. 2x a week switching from glute to glute. keep it simple

[mkrulic]

post script, even tho the enan ester is heavier than the prop ester I think the enan esterfied test will build up more in your system, due to the longer halflife

[2.minutes]

I'd have to see the math that supprots these claims. I dont recomend prop to someone who is considering a first cycle. ed injects are too much for a novice. your forcing them to find exotic injection places which is too much for a rookie.
test enan is a great choice. 2x a week switching from glute to glute. keep it simple

copy and past from the steroid profile:


So you see, the longer the ester on the testosterone is, the longer the steroid is active in your body, and the less actual test you get. This is because, for every 100mgs of testosterone cypionate you inject, only 69.90mgs of it is actually testosterone, the rest is the cypionate ester, which must be removed. On the other hand, with the propionate ester you’ll get 83.72mgs of Testosterone! The advantage to longer esters is that they need to be injected less frequently (test prop needs to be injected every other day while you can shoot test cyp once a week). The disadvantage to long estered steroids is that they contain less actual steroid. Anecdotally, however, most people from Steroid.com and other discussion boards who have tried differing esters on their various cycles agree: Testosterone Propionate causes the least side effects and the least bloating. For this reason, it’s often the testosterone of choice in cutting cycles. On a personal note, it’s the only form of testosterone I ever use, and it’s the only one most women will use, due to the previously mentioned factors (as well as it’s ability to clear your body quickly upon cessation in the case of side effects). Testosterone levels when you’re using injectable testosterone propionate begin to decline sharply after the second day of use(5). Obviously this is not the drug of choice for those who are squeamish about injections…you’ll be shooting this stuff every other day at least

[Swifto]

I have done a anavar/primo cycle in the past but never a test cycle. Would like to put on around 15lb of keepable mass if possible. I was debating on using dbol instead of tbol but dont want the bloat and have heard good things about tbol. I also already have the tbol aswell as some var.

Cycle #1

1-8 Prop EO 100mg/eod - maybe bump up to 150mg/eod if dont notice significant gains
1-6 Tbol 40mg/ed for a start will probably bump up
1-8 10mg nolva/ed

Clomid PCT 3 days after last shot.

Should I run Arimidex, etc during this cycle?

or

Should I do the regular proposed first cycle:

Cycle#2

1 – 10 Enan 500mg/wk
1 – 12 Nolvadex 10mg ED
1 – 12 L-dex .25mg ED

Start PCT 2 weeks after last Enan injection.

Maybe add in tbol for first 4-6 weeks at 40mg/ed.


My question is would I notice more gains with the Enan cycle over the Prop cycle. I know enan is alot less shots but shooting doesn't bother me. Will be on a bulk diet around 3500-4000cals to start, will up if necessary.



Let me know what your thoughts are.





Thanks

I'd have to see the math that supprots these claims. I dont recomend prop to someone who is considering a first cycle. ed injects are too much for a novice. your forcing them to find exotic injection places which is too much for a rookie.
test enan is a great choice. 2x a week switching from glute to glute. keep it simple

Please read the RED.

[mkrulic]

copy and past from the steroid profile:


So you see, the longer the ester on the testosterone is, the longer the steroid is active in your body, and the less actual test you get. This is because, for every 100mgs of testosterone cypionate you inject, only 69.90mgs of it is actually testosterone, the rest is the cypionate ester, which must be removed. On the other hand, with the propionate ester you’ll get 83.72mgs of Testosterone! The advantage to longer esters is that they need to be injected less frequently (test prop needs to be injected every other day while you can shoot test cyp once a week). The disadvantage to long estered steroids is that they contain less actual steroid. Anecdotally, however, most people from Steroid.com and other discussion boards who have tried differing esters on their various cycles agree: Testosterone Propionate causes the least side effects and the least bloating. For this reason, it’s often the testosterone of choice in cutting cycles. On a personal note, it’s the only form of testosterone I ever use, and it’s the only one most women will use, due to the previously mentioned factors (as well as it’s ability to clear your body quickly upon cessation in the case of side effects). Testosterone levels when you’re using injectable testosterone propionate begin to decline sharply after the second day of use(5). Obviously this is not the drug of choice for those who are squeamish about injections…you’ll be shooting this stuff every other day at least

you missed my post script:
"post script, even tho the enan ester is heavier than the prop ester I think the enan esterfied test will build up more in your system, due to the longer halflife"
must be consider is the half life. the build up of the hormone. Ive been putting it off but I'll come up w/ a formula.

[Swifto]

I'm not going to post maths results on how injecting Propionate everyday or every other day will keep more stable blood plasma concentrations than Enanthate 2x per week. It only takes common sense to see which is will keep levels most stable.

[mkrulic]

I'm not going to post maths results on how injecting Propionate everyday or every other day will keep more stable blood plasma concentrations than Enanthate 2x per week. It only takes common sense to see which is will keep levels most stable.

ed for a first time user is too much. if you dont feel this way, make suggestions on which muscle groups he should inject into. I'll work out the math. I find this interesting. and common sense does not apply. common sense is knowledge held by 2/3 the population. not the case here

[2.minutes]

ed for a first time user is too much. if you dont feel this way, make suggestions on which muscle groups he should inject into. I'll work out the math. I find this interesting. and common sense does not apply. common sense is knowledge held by 2/3 the population. not the case here

looking forward for the math

[mkrulic]

looking forward for the math

I'll prop pm you. I dont want to fill up someone elses thread w/ formulas.
bottom line. dont do prop on a first run. he might of said he doesnt mind freq injects but thats before he has 4 shots of prop in the same glute in one week. do enan; one shot in each glute per week

[BlackStang]

"If you inject ED or EOD, you will attain more stable blood plasma levels than injecting Enan or Cyp 2x per week"

This is one of the reasons why I was curious about using Prop instead of Enan or Cyp, well and its faster acting. Also if I do notice any of the harsher sides I could stop and it would be out of my system farly quickly.

I would be shooting eod not ed so I wouldn't have to use the more exotic injection places. If I use my glutes and delts, which I am fine doing, thats only 1 shot in each per week. Since it will be EO Prop I shouldn't have to worry as much about pain? I know Enan or Cyp would definatly be simpler and easier but I think have more stable blood levels would be worth it no?

[2.minutes]

"If you inject ED or EOD, you will attain more stable blood plasma levels than injecting Enan or Cyp 2x per week"

This is one of the reasons why I was curious about using Prop instead of Enan or Cyp, well and its faster acting. Also if I do notice any of the harsher sides I could stop and it would be out of my system farly quickly.

I would be shooting eod not ed so I wouldn't have to use the more exotic injection places. If I use my glutes and delts, which I am fine doing, thats only 1 shot in each per week. Since it will be EO Prop I shouldn't have to worry as much about pain? I know Enan or Cyp would definatly be simpler and easier but I think have more stable blood levels would be worth it no?

ofcourse its worth it, coz more stable blood level means less side effect

[Bigmax]

ed for a first time user is too much. if you dont feel this way, make suggestions on which muscle groups he should inject into. I'll work out the math. I find this interesting. and common sense does not apply. common sense is knowledge held by 2/3 the population. not the case here

Ed is NOT too much if the person doesnt mind the injections bro...Also if the guy has been reading then he also know he can rotate shots,Glutes,delts,etc...Elaborate on your last comment bro...

[kostakv]

Do Both, Test Prop The First Four Weeks And At The Same Time Shoot Enth Waiting For It To Kick In,... Thats What Im Doing (day 10) I ROTATE GLUTES AND THIGHS AND I THINK THAT WILL DO...!?!?!?!??!!??

[mkrulic]

Ed is NOT too much if the person doesnt mind the injections bro...Also if the guy has been reading then he also know he can rotate shots,Glutes,delts,etc...Elaborate on your last comment bro...

he's going w/ eod injects. so he'll stick w/ glutes and delts. ed gets in into either lats or quads (most common) that would be tough for anyone just getting used to needles.

[BlackStang]

Alright just want to finilize.

1-8 Prop EO 100mg/eod - maybe bump up to 150mg/eod if dont notice significant gains
1-6 Tbol 40mg/ed for a start will probably bump up
1-8 .5ml/eod Arimidex

PCT 3 days after last injection

Picked this cycle due to the more stable blood levels but am now debating on the best PCT.

PCT #1

9-10 Nolva 20mg/ed, Clomid 100mg/ed
11-12 Nolva 20mg/ed, Clomid 50mg/ed

or

PCT #2

9-10 Nolva 20mg/ed, Aromasin 25mg/ed
11-12 Nolva 20mg/ed, Aromasin 25mg/ed

Carry PCT longer if not fully recoverd yet.




Heard Clomid can cause depression, etc so I would like to avoid it if possible. Any other suggestions?



Thanks for all the advice so far guys

[Swifto]

Alright just want to finilize.

1-8 Prop EO 100mg/eod - maybe bump up to 150mg/eod if dont notice significant gains
1-6 Tbol 40mg/ed for a start will probably bump up
1-8 .5ml/eod Arimidex

PCT 3 days after last injection

Picked this cycle due to the more stable blood levels but am now debating on the best PCT.

PCT #1

9-10 Nolva 20mg/ed, Clomid 100mg/ed
11-12 Nolva 20mg/ed, Clomid 50mg/ed

or

PCT #2

9-10 Nolva 20mg/ed, Aromasin 25mg/ed
11-12 Nolva 20mg/ed, Aromasin 25mg/ed

Carry PCT longer if not fully recoverd yet.




Heard Clomid can cause depression, etc so I would like to avoid it if possible. Any other suggestions?



Thanks for all the advice so far guys

If your still gaining from the Tbol, run it for 8 weeks. I ran it for 12 weeks at around 80mg/ED with only a slight increase in liver values. Get BW done (If you can) at week 6.

For PCT I suggest HCG/Nolva/Aromasin/Proviron. It works very well for me.

[BlackStang]

If i do still notice gains from the tbol I will definatly run it throughout the cycle.

Not to familiar with HCG, would Nolva/Aromasin/Proviron be sufficient?




Thanks again

[davidinvienna]

what about that notorious injection pain with prop one hears so much about as opposed to Enan or Cyp?

Just throwin in a Q here that might be of interest to the initiator of this thread as well - especially in view of makin a choice between the two.

[fLgAtOr]

If i do still notice gains from the tbol I will definatly run it throughout the cycle.

Not to familiar with HCG, would Nolva/Aromasin/Proviron be sufficient?




Thanks again

Yes, it would probably work fine given the compounds...I second that PCT choice too. Two weeks in after test/tren and I feel great.

Given the tone of your posts I think you're a great candidate for prop...So go for it. In fact, I would encourage you to try both ED and EOD to see what the difference is for you. (I've done this accidentally by missing shots and then shooting EOD for a few days.) In, my experience, I break out less shooting ED.

Keep us posted sir.

[BlackStang]

davidinvienna - Since the Prop I will be getting is in ethyl oleate it should be painless I beleive.

fLgAtOr - I am going to try eod but if I do end up breaking out bad I think I'll give ed a try, gunna see if I can get away with shooting less though


Here is the final layout. Please let me know if there is anything that could be tweaked.

Cycle

1-8 Prop EO 100mg/eod - maybe bump up to 150mg/eod if dont notice significant gains
1-8 Tbol 40mg/ed
1-8 .5ml/eod Arimidex

PCT - 3 days after last inj.

1-4 Nolva 20mg/ed, 25mg/ed Aromasin, 25mg/ed Proviron



Thanks for everyones help, greatly appreciated!

[mkrulic]

davidinvienna - Since the Prop I will be getting is in ethyl oleate it should be painless I beleive.

fLgAtOr - I am going to try eod but if I do end up breaking out bad I think I'll give ed a try, gunna see if I can get away with shooting less though


Here is the final layout. Please let me know if there is anything that could be tweaked.

Cycle

1-8 Prop EO 100mg/eod - maybe bump up to 150mg/eod if dont notice significant gains
1-8 Tbol 40mg/ed
1-8 .5ml/eod Arimidex

PCT - 3 days after last inj.

1-4 Nolva 20mg/ed, 25mg/ed Aromasin, 25mg/ed Proviron



Thanks for everyones help, greatly appreciated!

If this is an issue go w/ a longer ester.