Asking all highly experienced AAS users for advice.

[paddy155]

Hello Friend's. I would firstly like to Thank you for taking the time of helping me. I am looking for some advice on the cycle which I am about to start at the beginning of March and would like to make sure that everything is in order so that I benifit as much as possible and that my health is protected. I will run through a few thinks first.

AGE- 25years old
TRAINING EXPERIENCE- 7 years on and off.
CYCLE EXPERIENCE - 1 cycle early last year. 13 weeks of Test Enan. at 500mg each week. Gained rather well regardless of poor diet. Stopped trainning after this cycle as had to go away from home travelling for work and could not stay focused on training. More or less lost everything I gained.

The cycle I am about to show that I will be taking is one that I was advised on from another Member and the PCT and Anti-e's were also advised by others. The cycle is entended for bulking and mass.

WK 1 50mg Dbol each day
WK 1-15 500mg Test E each week
WK 1-14 400mg Deca each week
WK 1-17 10mg Nolva each day

Shots will be taken on Monday morning and then repeated on Thursday night.

Begin PCT 2 weeks after last injection -

3 weeks of L-dex at .25mg each day.
4 weeks of Clomid at 100mg for the first 2 weeks and then 50mg for the
second.This will be taken each day.
6 weeks of Nolva at 20 mg each day.

SUPPLEMENTS-
1000mg Milkthistle each day during cycle and PCT.
3 Liv.52 tablets taken also during cycle.
2 Animal paks daily
So that is it Guy's. All I can add to that is that my training routine is in order and that my diet is being planned out at the momment. I am 6ft 5ins and weigh 210 lbs and looking to eat around 4300 calories daliy consisting of 400g protein,400g carbs and 120 g fat.

Any extra advice on what should be added to this or removed will be very much appreciated and I thank you for your time.

[helium3]

i think you look good to go,but i dont see the point in running dbol for a week

id either drop it or extend a few more weeks.also the cycle is a tad longer than i would run but thats just me.looks like you have read up so go for it.

[Amateur BB111]

you're gonna be a beast!

[hugovsilva]

i think you look good to go,but i dont see the point in running dbol for a week

id either drop it or extend a few more weeks.also the cycle is a tad longer than i would run but thats just me.looks like you have read up so go for it.

Agree. Another thing is why so much liver protection? The only one you are running that is really liver damaging is Dbol.

For a cycle that long I would consider some HCG for during mid-cycle, during cycle...you choose, and pre-pct or pct, again, you choose.

[vermin]

For starters, I'd run the test 1-17 and the deca 2-15. In fact it is a pretty long cycle - running deca for 12 weeks is good, many find 10 weeks to be just as good. Anyway, I'd start the test ahead of the deca. Forget the dbol and the milk thistle and add in HCG .

Diet is going to have a lot to do with the success of this cycle. I'd go with at least 5000 calories, if not closer to 6000 esp. once the deca starts to kick in.

[Jefferey]

All you need is Test only again

[vermin]

All you need is Test only again

Probably the better advice....

[IBdmfkr]

6'5 210lbs is a big redflag that you've not been eating enough as is. I'd start there before turning to AAS otherwise you'll more than likely end right up right back where you started in 6months.

Recommending he eat 6000calories in order to grow or when the deca "kicks" in is absurd and unnecessary. I don't know very many ppl who can actually EAT 5000calories on a daily basis, you must be talking about drinking 2-3shakes/day which is pointless.

[paddy155]

The main reason for the D bol was to kick start the cycle.

Their seems to be a lot of debate on this forum as to how long cycles should be ran for. Some say this cycle is to long and others say to short. It's all very confusing.

[passthetest]

I think that is a badass cycle well planned and could lead to amazing gains. But at 6'5 210? You have so much more room for natural gains to take place before you start this cycle. I'm sure since you have everything planned out you dont want this advie but i would strongly consider pushing yourself untill you plateau before you start your cycle. Jmo

[SMAN12b]

If you are gonna use the dbol as a kickstart, then run it for 4 weeks not just one.

NO matter how much AAS you take, it won't magically put on mass unless you are taking in the right amounts of food at the right times!!

You need to make sure your diet is in check before you start anything

[vermin]

Recommending he eat 6000calories in order to grow or when the deca "kicks" in is absurd and unnecessary. I don't know very many ppl who can actually EAT 5000calories on a daily basis, you must be talking about drinking 2-3shakes/day which is pointless.

Nope, pouinds of chicken breast and filet a day - been doing it long before I ever even thought about AAS. I only use shakes PWO.

[Buschlightcan]

I love your cycle, but the d-bol for 1 week. I dont suggest that at all. Run for 4 weeks. I have done a cycle almost identical to this. You will love the results. You must run the d-bol longer though. Good luck.

[IBdmfkr]

Nope, pouinds of chicken breast and filet a day - been doing it long before I ever even thought about AAS. I only use shakes PWO.

I'd be interested to see a layout of a typical 5-6000calorie diet that is needed for growth.

Pics would be good to go along with what 6000calories will do to a person over time.

[daytrader]

Nope, pouinds of chicken breast and filet a day - been doing it long before I ever even thought about AAS. I only use shakes PWO.

Bro, you must own a friggin chicken farm then, because 80z of chicken breast is only a little over 200 cals

[aadrenaline]

For starters, I'd run the test 1-17 and the deca 2-15. In fact it is a pretty long cycle - running deca for 12 weeks is good, many find 10 weeks to be just as good. Anyway, I'd start the test ahead of the deca. Forget the dbol and the milk thistle and add in HCG .

Diet is going to have a lot to do with the success of this cycle. I'd go with at least 5000 calories, if not closer to 6000 esp. once the deca starts to kick in.

why forget it? i take it everyday..so if i have a drink im not too worried about it. also test is not 100% not liver toxic so why not run it cut it down to 1 pill a day or 160mg of silymarin(should be the amount in your pill per serving). ive never heard of milk thistle hindering gains so why take it out?

liver protection is said to be 200+mg of silymarin a day.

[paddy155]

Any more advice Guy's. what is the draw back with taking this cycle now rather than wait till I gain the natural wait ? Could you explain your reason for this.

[gym lord]

let's be realistic ... if paddy has already got all the components for this cycle in his possession, or has easy access to them, and has got himself psyched to do a cycle ... not likely he's going to suddenly get rid of everything in lieu of training natural for another couple of years ... i prolly wouldnt if i was in his shoes, and i doubt anybody else would ... point is, he's asking if the cycle looks okay .... and it does, except he needs to tweak the d-bol from one week to four ... i'd say go for it ... when you finish, you'll have the experience of a good cycle under your belt, and then you can decide whether or not to go natural for another year or two ... JMO of course ... good luck paddy!

[paddy155]

Thanks forn that gym lord,that is what is was thinking. I am so focused on this cycle and with my diet I know that after this cycle I will never look back. I just need to get a cycle under my belt and then take it from there. I must be honest that I get slightly gealous when I see people I know walking around juiced and I know for a fact that they do not train right or have a diet in orderer that they follow. It is also hard to go to a gym and stay natural for years when you see idiots walking around with a better physique than you to and you are busting your ass of. I mean,how many proffessional bodybuilders of past and present probaly waited till they reached their peak before they dabbled in AAS ?

[gym lord]

sounds like you have the right attitude for success ... hard, focused workouts supporting a well thought out plan, and a stict, clean diet regimen are essential to maximizing and retaining gains achieved on AAS ... keep us posted on your progress after you begin ...

[IBdmfkr]

Realize you're comparing yourself to guys who are probably atleast 6inches shorter than you bro.. you will NEVER look like that with your frame, even with boat loads of juice.

Goodluck on the cycle, post some before after pics if you can.

Btw, still waiting on this 6K calorie diet to be laid out.. I gotta see this.

[aadrenaline]

Realize you're comparing yourself to guys who are probably atleast 6inches shorter than you bro.. you will NEVER look like that with your frame, even with boat loads of juice.

Goodluck on the cycle, post some before after pics if you can.

Btw, still waiting on this 6K calorie diet to be laid out.. I gotta see this.

the only time in my life were im happy to be 5'7"!!!! its soo true

[vermin]

why forget it? i take it everyday..so if i have a drink im not too worried about it. also test is not 100% not liver toxic so why not run it cut it down to 1 pill a day or 160mg of silymarin(should be the amount in your pill per serving). ive never heard of milk thistle hindering gains so why take it out?

liver protection is said to be 200+mg of silymarin a day.

Already admitted that the better advice was to skip it altogether - jumped in on the wrong foot and responded with what I'd do, not what he should do.

So why did I say what I said? First off, I never take orals due to the liver issues and in my case specifically because taking accutane 23 years ago destroyed over 1/3 of my liver. Milk thistle, even for those who advocate it, tends to be contraindicated in folks who already have liver damage. And worse yet, there have been exactly two real scientific peer reviewed studies of milk thistle and they came up with contradictory results on the effect of milk thistle. So, milk thistle might make you feel better about destroying your liver, but it very possibly wont do squat to prevent it.

[IBdmfkr]

Wanna post that 6K calorie diet? Why avoid the question if you're gonna spit out advice.

Please enlighten us.

[vermin]

Btw, still waiting on this 6K calorie diet to be laid out.. I gotta see this.

Fascinated that you find this so fascinating. There are plenty on this board who eat this much or more while on cycle - and top pros have posted diets of nearly or even as much as about twice that. Anyway moving last week and this so if you want something from my logs you'll have to wait. Might try looking in the diets section in the meantime if you are that fascinated.

Also, consider some basic math: My current maintenance is about 3800 kc - I just cut 15 pounds, so there's a bit of flux which is why the caveat of "about". It seems you consider 5K to be the upper limit of human consumption - weird, sorta noob like which you have never seemed to me, but OK - at about 1200 extra a day for lets say 8 weeks my upper limit on gains is only around 20-22 pounds. Realistically, in part because we never hit the theory and in part because as we gain out maintenance grows too so the real gain is maybe 15-17 pounds. Does that seem worth a cycle to you? Is that all you gain in 8 weeks on cycle?

If I am able to hit closer to 6K then things change quite a bit: I am at a theoretical gain of 35-40 pounds and realistically able to hit about 30+. My ratio of LBM is admittedly worse, but I still gain about 8 pounds more of real muscle. And getting cut has never been very important to me - I tend to follow the old school "strong man" style than posing in the mirror.

[vermin]

Wanna post that 6K calorie diet? Why avoid the question if you're gonna spit out advice.

Please enlighten us.

Damn you're impatient - and getting damn rude, too. Care to meet somewhere that I can deliver the lesson in person?

[IBdmfkr]

o.k. buddy, tell you what fly down to TX and we'll have lunch.

Are you that insecure with yourself that you get bent out of shape when someone challenges what you have to say over the net? Either put up or shutup bro, as far as I've seen you claim all these studies and theories but you have no credibility to back the claims.. so what now you gonna pitch a fit and threaten me again?
We're here to learn, I challenge people's thoughts and posts to protect other members here, if you don't like it simply enlighten me with your knowledge about the subject I question and be done with it.

[IBdmfkr]

Fascinated that you find this so fascinating. There are plenty on this board who eat this much or more while on cycle - and top pros have posted diets of nearly or even as much as about twice that. Anyway moving last week and this so if you want something from my logs you'll have to wait. Might try looking in the diets section in the meantime if you are that fascinated.

Also, consider some basic math: My current maintenance is about 3800 kc - I just cut 15 pounds, so there's a bit of flux which is why the caveat of "about". It seems you consider 5K to be the upper limit of human consumption - weird, sorta noob like which you have never seemed to me, but OK - at about 1200 extra a day for lets say 8 weeks my upper limit on gains is only around 20-22 pounds. Realistically, in part because we never hit the theory and in part because as we gain out maintenance grows too so the real gain is maybe 15-17 pounds. Does that seem worth a cycle to you? Is that all you gain in 8 weeks on cycle?

If I am able to hit closer to 6K then things change quite a bit: I am at a theoretical gain of 35-40 pounds and realistically able to hit about 30+. My ratio of LBM is admittedly worse, but I still gain about 8 pounds more of real muscle. And getting cut has never been very important to me - I tend to follow the old school "strong man" style than posing in the mirror.

Exactly that, your theories and style is "old school" and not ideal for building lean muscle tissue.

If you honestly think anyone her is a "top pro" or need over 5K calories/day to grow then you're crazy. And obviously from your statements about weight gain from cycles you hold more than enough bodyfat during the year. How is it ideal to put on 5lbs of muscle and 12lbs of fat on a cycle? Tell me the reasoning behind that?
Me on the other hand, I gain approx 10lbs/year and maintain the same bodyfat or fluctuate a couple percent which is easily kept in check with strict dieting. I'd love to see pics so we could compare since you feel threatened by the fact that I'd challenge your ideas and feel the need to lash out.
This is called a debate and a difference of opinions. Are you a man? ok then handle it like one and simply let me hear your side of it, I may learn something.

Just incase you anyone is confused let me break down a 6k calorie diet:
Calorie consumption over 6 meals - 6000calories:
Protein required, 600
Carbs required, 600
Fat required, 150
This comes out to a little over 6K calories..
so each meal would require you to eat 100g of protein, 100g carbs, and 25g fat.
Let me give you an example of this meal you'd have to eat 6 times/day:
30 eggwhites, 2 cups of oatmeal and 2tbsn PB
or
1 pound of Steak and 2 Med Yams
Do these meals 6 times/day for a prolonged period of time.

Something like this is a quick way to become extremely fat.

[odix]

right now im on 700mg test, 600mg deca , 1-4 dbol kickstart @ 50mg ed. I'm feeling great bro, its the classic mass cycle.

[vermin]

Any more advice Guy's. what is the draw back with taking this cycle now rather than wait till I gain the natural wait ? Could you explain your reason for this.

A thousand different ways to tackle this, but some major points are that the risk to you, your health, etc. is, while perhaps overstated in the media hype etc., still real. When you are starting out you can make very impressive gains naturally, so what is the point of a cycle? Not much.

In the meantime you'll see folks who'll talk about things like injuries to connective tissues, etc. while on cycle. These are folks who have not done sufficient natural iron work - mostly mirror athletes who have gone to AAS quickly to avoid a little fat, and thus never developed the proper frame, structure and supportive tissues to handle the increased strain. Of course injuries can happen to anyone, but IMHO they become far more likely the sooner you start AAS. I don't know if you understand this, but the bone thickening, connective tissue growth, etc. that occurs as you weight train is influenced very little if at all by AAS, so as your LBM increases the support for it does so at a much slower rate when on AAS.

Believe me, when you get huge few folks notice if you have a bit of a gut. Dudes get out of your way, folks stop and look at you, etc. anyway, so you can be a natural freak first, then hit AAS to go beyond that. If you can be happy pulling off the giant, evil-looking skull crushing redneck image then you'll be fine. If you are a girl, well then listen to these other guys.

I suggest (and seem like about the only one to do so) to get as close to a 600 pound bench and an 800 pound squat as you can naturally before using AAS. As an added bonus, you can do things like laugh while watching guys post photos and videos proud of themselves all cut and buff and pressing, benching and deadlifting puny weights while on AAS and realize that you can do much more, naturally. Of course I don't ever suggest posting those comments directly, mirror athletes are by nature fragile and insecure creatures and it is cruel to laugh in their faces.

[*Narkissos*]

^^ @ 'mirror athletes'

/subscribed.

Also, consider some basic math: My current maintenance is about 3800 kc - I just cut 15 pounds, so there's a bit of flux which is why the caveat of "about". It seems you consider 5K to be the upper limit of human consumption - weird, sorta noob like which you have never seemed to me, but OK - at about 1200 extra a day for lets say 8 weeks my upper limit on gains is only around 20-22 pounds. Realistically, in part because we never hit the theory and in part because as we gain out maintenance grows too so the real gain is maybe 15-17 pounds. Does that seem worth a cycle to you? Is that all you gain in 8 weeks on cycle?

If I am able to hit closer to 6K then things change quite a bit: I am at a theoretical gain of 35-40 pounds and realistically able to hit about 30+. My ratio of LBM is admittedly worse, but I still gain about 8 pounds more of real muscle. And getting cut has never been very important to me - I tend to follow the old school "strong man" style than posing in the mirror.

Seeing that the question(s) above asked you to lay out your diet..as opposed to just quote the totals.. i think you just wasted 10 minutes skipping around there bro.

I'd like to see your 5-6k daily diet.

I think that I B D is 'fascinated', for lack of a better word, because 95% of the guys here who claim to ingest 5k calories on a daily basis, when asked to put up their daily diets, come up with an average of 3500 kcals.

Feel free to post however.

[IBdmfkr]

He's a typical powerlifter, Now I understand his comments and attitude. They're all over my gym.

They need an excuse for being fat, eating unhealthy foods and thinking they are better than any other athlete's desires and goals.

Let me rephrase what a typical meal would be for a powerlifter, Triple big mac with cheese and a large coke.. forget the steak and yams.

[*Narkissos*]

Now here are my red flags:

TRAINING EXPERIENCE- 7 years on and off.

CYCLE EXPERIENCE - 1 cycle early last year. 13 weeks of Test Enan. at 500mg each week. Gained rather well regardless of poor diet. Stopped trainning after this cycle as had to go away from home travelling for work

So that is it Guy's. All I can add to that is that my training routine is in order and that my diet is being planned out at the momment. I am 6ft 5ins and weigh 210 lbs and looking to eat around 4300 calories daliy consisting of 400g protein,400g carbs and 120 g fat.

'looking to eat' suggests that you do not currently have a diet.

All the other above factors suggest that consistency has been a problem for you as well.

So my recommendations would be that you don't cycle.

[vermin]

o.k. buddy, tell you what fly down to TX and we'll have lunch.

Are you that insecure with yourself that you get bent out of shape when someone challenges what you have to say over the net? Either put up or shutup bro, as far as I've seen you claim all these studies and theories but you have no credibility to back the claims.. so what now you gonna pitch a fit and threaten me again?
We're here to learn, I challenge people's thoughts and posts to protect other members here, if you don't like it simply enlighten me with your knowledge about the subject I question and be done with it.

If you are really a Texan that you'll know you called me out first. You'll also know that I did not threaten you, just accepted your challenge, one redneck to another bo. But I'm thinking you might just be a Yankee.

Anyway....

My gains are about 70% lean, compared with about 60% when natural (though of course not that fast) and compared with about 80-85% when I follow your notions. I'd rather have the extra muscle, you wouldn't, fine. I have never denied being old-school, instead I advocate the same. I could care less about being pretty, cuz I am never gonna be anyway.

As to the studies and such, well if you are disturbed by someone bothering to actually learn about the subject, and advocate others do the same - preferably before they start off on any cycle or other course of action, then I guess I can only chuckle. Particularly if you find doing so in some way reduces that person's credibility, instead enhancing it as reasonable person would conclude. Sounds like you prefer folks who parrot Internet rubbish like telling a 255 pound male he will get great results by taking 2 IUs of HGH for 6 months, instead of the truth - which happens to have science to back it up, as opposed to just Internet BS back and forth.

it is funny you ask for pictures, because while I never willingly allow photos of myself I almost broke this rule for my DNP thingy. But I didn't. I think you can figure that if I am willing to continue to disappoint my mother's requests for pictures I am not gonna be much bothered by the disappointment of some anonymous dude on the Internet.

Still, and I'll say this for the third time - none of this has anything to do with the poster. He should stick to natty or a simple test cycle at the most. Evidently you've been stalking me, bothered by my posts, and decided to use this thread to call me out. Gratz.

[vermin]

He's a typical powerlifter, Now I understand his comments and attitude. They're all over my gym.

Negative. I outlift them, but for reps of 10 while they do singles.

They need an excuse for being fat, eating unhealthy foods and thinking they are better than any other athlete's desires and goals.

Let me rephrase what a typical meal would be for a powerlifter, Triple big mac with cheese and a large coke.. forget the steak and yams.

Maybe, I don't know what they eat. As I have already said - I will post when I unpack - chicken breast and filet (and sweet potatos, Barilla high prot pasta, tuna, brown rice, oatmeal, etc.). And as I have admitted more than once, cutting has been an issue for me for about the last 2 years. Starting with HRT, then moving to full AAS I am now finally back on track there - but the cutting goals I have are more health/fitness related than posing....

[Hellmaskbanned]

Just incase you anyone is confused let me break down a 6k calorie diet:
Calorie consumption over 6 meals - 6000calories:
Protein required, 600
Carbs required, 600
Fat required, 150
This comes out to a little over 6K calories..
so each meal would require you to eat 100g of protein, 100g carbs, and 25g fat.
.

I can actually eat that much if not more....I have to force myself to eat less , because of my stretched out stomach from over stuffing since a child lol.

But like you said...end result...Extremely FAT!

[vermin]

Seeing that the question(s) above asked you to lay out your diet..as opposed to just quote the totals.. i think you just wasted 10 minutes skipping around there bro.

I Nark - nothing personal here, and I have apprecaited your help in the past, but I think if you go back and look at it you'll see that I have nothing avialable to post right at this second (amazing how folks live at Internet speed and bridle at having to wait a bit, isn't it) but have said I would when I can and in the meantime I tried to outline what I do and why. I am currently in a hotel logging via RDP via my office - the stuff you are asking for is in boxes.

I'd like to see your 5-6k daily diet.

And you will - if you'd like to see it I owe you that much and then plenty more. You've been helpful, as opposed to stalker boy....

[vermin]

Me on the other hand, I gain approx 10lbs/year

And you need AAS for this? This is like the guy in the other thread who told someone that he could not take his squats from 225 to 400 in six months with AAS - made me laugh. You can do that in 10 weeks, natty. Oh my goodness, yes, you will gain a few pounds of fat, though...

[IBdmfkr]

I appreciate your thoughts vermin and enjoy reading others thoughts and ideas on different subjects..

I won't keep arguing about the points brought up, goodluck with your ventures.

Btw, the Yank comment was a bit below the belt. lol

[Hellmaskbanned]

^ post that squat routine lol.

You have alot of time to babble about nothing yet you claim your restricted when asked to back up your claims......