Yet another 1st cycle question

[lowt2]

I know you guys are probably tired of us first timers. Anyhow I'm one of those. I've been on the weights for around 6 years now, had some shoulder surgery and I'm trying to get it all back. Progress is slowed by the weak shoulder. I can still lift heavy but after a few weeks of it the inflammation gets to me so I have to back off.

So for my first I'm going simple just to get the feet wet.

I'm planning 8 weeks on.

Wks 1-3 200mg deca + 20mg stanz
Wks 4-6 400mg deca + 30mg stanz
Wks 7-8 200mg deca + 20mg stanz + 20mg nolva
Wks 9-10 20mgs nolva

Should I be using clomi for PCT also? I have easy access to plenty of trib stuff if that would suffice for this cycle.

As for liver I have plenty of Liver X from MRM which I was planning as well as essential forte in case my body doesn't like the stanz. Saw Palmetto is also planned, nutrition is on point.

I'm just trying to get my feet wet and not do anything crazy for my first. I'm trying to avoid aromatizing even at the sacrifice of greater gains for now. later on I'll play with the big stuff.

Opinions? I realize I'm a junior member but I'm just looking for reviews. Thanks.

[lowt2]

By the way. I'm about 215, 18%, and 23yo.

[Johny-too-small]

Deca only is a bad idea. You need test unless you dont care about sex. Also, the deca needs to be ran for a min of 10 weeks imo at a min of 400 mg/ew and pct needs to run a min of 4 weeks.

[armbar83]

im assuming your running the deca for joint relief but a deca winny cycle sounds like bad deca dick to me.

you should run a test only cycle for your first go. maybe try some adequan to get fluid for joint relief.

[reppedout1]

here is what i would do
wk 1-12 test enth 500 mg
wk1-10 deca 400 mg
proper pct required,winny is hard on joints i have shoulder issues in my right shoulder sio i would avoid winny

[armbar83]

also ive never run deca and winny but winny kind of has the opposite effect on the joints and body deca does so i think you should just run test like i said before.

winny can cause joint pain.

maybe like 12 weeks of test cyp or enanthate at 200-250mg mondays and thursdays.

that would be a great way to "get your feet wet"

[GHO5T]

to "get your feet wet" i would suggest just go natty for awhile, get your diet and training in check. Make some gains natty first, than you can run a cycle which will allow for proper and progressive growth.

[heavyhitter08]

im assuming your running the deca for joint relief but a deca winny cycle sounds like bad deca dick to me.

you should run a test only cycle for your first go. maybe try some adequan to get fluid for joint relief.

I agree... Not a good layout for a first time cycle. You don't know how your body will respond to these compunds. Run a Test ( C or E) by itself for 10wks @ 500mg wk. TRUST me you will gain very nicely as long as everything else is in check....

[03SvtCobra]

I agree... Not a good layout for a first time cycle. You don't know how your body will respond to these compunds. Run a Test ( C or E) by itself for 10wks @ 500mg wk. TRUST me you will gain very nicely as long as everything else is in check....

Heh I agree aswell. I just finished up a 12 week cycle of Test E and gained just shy of 20lbs of lean mass, and with the proper dieting/training thankfully I've kept the gains *mass and strength* wise.

You need to see how your body will react to gear FIRST before getting into a deeper cycle. The test will give you a pretty damn good idea on how your body will take the juice and show you any possible side effects you might run into ie: water retention/acne/hairloss/etc. Just my 2 cents though

[lowt2]

Thanks for all the responses. Yes ex is very important, time to reevaluate. My new thoughts:

Drop Winny to reduce joint pain

Wks 1-4: 250mg Test E (125 each mon and thurs) + 200mg Deca
Wks 5-9 400mg Test E (200mg each mon and thurs) + 400mg Deca
Wks 9-10 Back down to Wks 1-4 on Test E and Deca
Wks 11-12 Same Test and Deca add 20mg Nolva/ day
Continue Nolva for 4 weeks past end

I already have Nolva and Deca, so I would like to include those. I have winny also but will offload that. Should clomi be included for pct? I'm trying to keep the dosages relatively low-moderate.

As for the natty comment. I agree. I have always been natty, I've done ph once about a year ago. With the shoulder I keep hitting ceilings. I make good gains and then ave to back off for a month. One step forward, one step back. Nutrition is on point, I'm actually very involved in nutrition in my area, enough said about that. I was a junior state powerlifter so the training is on point (though I'm not going for the same goals anymore).

I am looking to get some decent gains to get past my sticking point but don't want to see aromatizing or too much in the way of androgenic sides.

Any comments on essential forte or Liver X? I've used Liver X before just not for this purpose.

As for pct what would be the "perfect" pct, and what should I have on hand in case of tender nipples or other estrogen sides?

Thanks again.

[topnotch]

I would agree about dropping the winni...I have some friends on that, and he had to go get a shot his joints are hurting him so bad. I was running test cyp 500/week and deca 300/week. Deca keeps the joints well lubricated so I think this would help with your shoulder injury. Might check w/ the doc to be on the safe side though.

[Johny-too-small]

Thanks for all the responses. Yes ex is very important, time to reevaluate. My new thoughts:

Drop Winny to reduce joint pain

Wks 1-4: 250mg Test E (125 each mon and thurs) + 200mg Deca
Wks 5-9 400mg Test E (200mg each mon and thurs) + 400mg Deca
Wks 9-10 Back down to Wks 1-4 on Test E and Deca
Wks 11-12 Same Test and Deca add 20mg Nolva/ day
Continue Nolva for 4 weeks past end

I already have Nolva and Deca, so I would like to include those. I have winny also but will offload that. Should clomi be included for pct? I'm trying to keep the dosages relatively low-moderate.

As for the natty comment. I agree. I have always been natty, I've done ph once about a year ago. With the shoulder I keep hitting ceilings. I make good gains and then ave to back off for a month. One step forward, one step back. Nutrition is on point, I'm actually very involved in nutrition in my area, enough said about that. I was a junior state powerlifter so the training is on point (though I'm not going for the same goals anymore).

I am looking to get some decent gains to get past my sticking point but don't want to see aromatizing or too much in the way of androgenic sides.

Any comments on essential forte or Liver X? I've used Liver X before just not for this purpose.

As for pct what would be the "perfect" pct, and what should I have on hand in case of tender nipples or other estrogen sides?

Thanks again.

Once again your cycle needs serious help and you need to research alot more about this stuff before you jump in. If I were you, Id stick to a single compound (test E) for a first cycle. In addition, stepping your dosing is a bad idea. Ill give you a jump start:

Week 1-12: Test E @ 500 mg/ew (no less, and no more)
Weel 1-10: Deca @ 400 mg/ew (If you must)
No need for nolva during cycle but you might need an AI if youre gyno prone.

pct
Week 1: Nolva @ 40 mg/ed, Clomid @ 300 mg/ed
Week 2: Nolva @ 30 mg/ed, Clomid @ 200 mg/ed
Week 3: Nolva @ 20 mg/ed, Clomid @ 100 mg/ed
Week 4: Nolva @ 10 mg/ed, Clomid @ 50 mg/ed
Week 5: Nolva @ 10 mg/ed (esp. if you use deca, imo).

[Johny-too-small]

in addition, proviron @ 25 mg/ed during cycle and 50 mg/ed during pct would be great.

[topnotch]

in addition, proviron @ 25 mg/ed during cycle and 50 mg/ed during pct would be great.

Johny what does the proviron do exactly? Why run it during and pct? just curious?

[topnotch]

So what we have here is a steroid which can basically make other steroids more effective by preventing their conversion into estrogen, as well as increasing the amount of circulating free testosterone in your body. This of course all provides a more hardened and quality look to muscles. Proviron is very much a "synergistic" drug in this respect, and it´s inclusion in any cycle would definitely make all of the other steroids perform better, and provide better gains. This is all compounded by the fact that proviron is a very lipolytic (fat-burning) drug."


I just found that in the steroid profiles page. Is that the reason why basically to run it or why do you include it? Thanks johny

[Johny-too-small]

Topnotch, youre hijacking this dude's thread. Start your own or do more research here:


Use PROVIRON during PCT!

[armbar83]

Thanks for all the responses. Yes ex is very important, time to reevaluate. My new thoughts:

Drop Winny to reduce joint pain

Wks 1-4: 250mg Test E (125 each mon and thurs) + 200mg Deca
Wks 5-9 400mg Test E (200mg each mon and thurs) + 400mg Deca
Wks 9-10 Back down to Wks 1-4 on Test E and Deca
Wks 11-12 Same Test and Deca add 20mg Nolva/ day
Continue Nolva for 4 weeks past end

I already have Nolva and Deca, so I would like to include those. I have winny also but will offload that. Should clomi be included for pct? I'm trying to keep the dosages relatively low-moderate.

As for the natty comment. I agree. I have always been natty, I've done ph once about a year ago. With the shoulder I keep hitting ceilings. I make good gains and then ave to back off for a month. One step forward, one step back. Nutrition is on point, I'm actually very involved in nutrition in my area, enough said about that. I was a junior state powerlifter so the training is on point (though I'm not going for the same goals anymore).

I am looking to get some decent gains to get past my sticking point but don't want to see aromatizing or too much in the way of androgenic sides.

Any comments on essential forte or Liver X? I've used Liver X before just not for this purpose.

As for pct what would be the "perfect" pct, and what should I have on hand in case of tender nipples or other estrogen sides?

Thanks again.

i dont see anything wrong with tapering at the end of the cycle, but i wouldnt do it at the beginning. go ahead and start off with your effective dose. if you are trying to keep doses lower, just lower it. maybe:

1-12 test enanthate 3-400 mg/wk
1-10 deca 2-300 mg/wk

this is a good first cycle, in fact id prefer it over the 500mg of test and 400mg of deca per week. thats alot of gear for a first...especially since your not a body builder and someone looking for more theraputic gains.

if you really feel like you need to run deca then just keep the doses of both lower. make sure the test dose is higher than the deca for sexual problems. the deca dose might seem low, but if you are trying to get fluid in the joint, the low dose will do that and help avoid alot of aromitization or sexual problems.

i would wait a week or two after your last test shot and then start running your nolva. instead of putting a time limit on it, run your pct until you feel your sex drive come back. it might be a little less, might be a little more...

[topnotch]

Topnotch, youre hijacking this dude's thread. Start your own or do more research here:


Use PROVIRON during PCT!

I'm not hijacking this guys thread. You made the recommendation to him, so it doesnt hurt to ask this question as it would pertain to what you told him and what he's asking.

[Johny-too-small]

I'm not hijacking this guys thread. You made the recommendation to him, so it doesnt hurt to ask this question as it would pertain to what you told him and what he's asking.

thanks for informing me, lol

[armbar83]

I'm not hijacking this guys thread. You made the recommendation to him, so it doesnt hurt to ask this question as it would pertain to what you told him and what he's asking.

yes you were

[topnotch]

yes you were

Look the question I had would also pertain to the same question as the original starter. So why waste the time and space of the thread telling me i hi-jacked it and crap and simply answer the question since it would be helpful to the guy anyways.

[Johny-too-small]

Because this is HIS thread for him to ask the questions that he wants to ask. If he wants to know about XXX than he will ask.

If you have questions, then do your own research and stop wasting space on someone elses thread.

Now you have hijacked it again. Im not trying to flame you but 69 posts and your telling us whats up?

[lowt2]

i dont see anything wrong with tapering at the end of the cycle, but i wouldnt do it at the beginning. go ahead and start off with your effective dose. if you are trying to keep doses lower, just lower it. maybe:

1-12 test enanthate 3-400 mg/wk
1-10 deca 2-300 mg/wk

this is a good first cycle, in fact id prefer it over the 500mg of test and 400mg of deca per week. thats alot of gear for a first...especially since your not a body builder and someone looking for more theraputic gains.

if you really feel like you need to run deca then just keep the doses of both lower. make sure the test dose is higher than the deca for sexual problems. the deca dose might seem low, but if you are trying to get fluid in the joint, the low dose will do that and help avoid alot of aromitization or sexual problems.

i would wait a week or two after your last test shot and then start running your nolva. instead of putting a time limit on it, run your pct until you feel your sex drive come back. it might be a little less, might be a little more...

That sounds do-able to me. About the pct, some recommend clomi plus nolva... some recommend clomi instead... from what I've read they are both SERM's but the profiles forum says this about clomi:

"...Usually, it is compared with another SERM, Nolvadex , for those reasons.

Clomid, however, is much weaker than nolvadex in a mg for mg comparison, with roughly 150mgs of clomid being equal to 20mgs of nolvadex (1)."

This is what lead me to choose nolva originally.

My questions as of this point are:

1. Anyone else have an opinion on armbar's suggestion?
2. Is Nolva alone equal to, better, or not as good as adding clomi or clomi alone?
3. With dosages that low is it necessary to get some Arimidex to have around in case of gyno?
4. From my understanding of Nolva and Clomi they don't act much on natural test levels but reduce the sides from increased estrogen by preventing them from binding to receptors, which in turn causes LH, FSH, and test increase. Would it be helpful to throw Tribulus in to the mix or is this a drop in a bucket?
5. I generally train an hour at a time 4x per week and every body part once/ week. Will this stack do much for staving off overtraining. I would like to bump to 1.5 hours and add in a 5th day. This all does not count in cardio, just weights.

I think that does it for tonight. Thanks for the help.

[armbar83]

That sounds do-able to me. About the pct, some recommend clomi plus nolva... some recommend clomi instead... from what I've read they are both SERM's but the profiles forum says this about clomi:

"...Usually, it is compared with another SERM, Nolvadex , for those reasons.

Clomid, however, is much weaker than nolvadex in a mg for mg comparison, with roughly 150mgs of clomid being equal to 20mgs of nolvadex (1)."

This is what lead me to choose nolva originally.

My questions as of this point are:

1. Anyone else have an opinion on armbar's suggestion?
why would they

2. Is Nolva alone equal to, better, or not as good as adding clomi or clomi alone?
I haven't run nolva for pct but will in the future because clomid tends to make me feel very depressed and crappy, but its different for everyone.

3. With dosages that low is it necessary to get some Arimidex to have around in case of gyno?
Because gyno is the enemy for you, not bloat in general I would keep letro on hand. You don't want to use it because it will suck you dry but its good to have in case of gyno.

4. From my understanding of Nolva and Clomi they don't act much on natural test levels but reduce the sides from increased estrogen by preventing them from binding to receptors, which in turn causes LH, FSH, and test increase. Would it be helpful to throw Tribulus in to the mix or is this a drop in a bucket?
yes or maybe tongkat ali

5. I generally train an hour at a time 4x per week and every body part once/ week. Will this stack do much for staving off overtraining. I would like to bump to 1.5 hours and add in a 5th day. This all does not count in cardio, just weights.
yes, just make sure you get good rest on off days and eat properly

I think that does it for tonight. Thanks for the help.

your welcome