need some advice on cycle

**Buildingmuscle** · 02-23-2007, 02:33 PM

hey bros I need some help.
I'm 35 - 5'10" - 220 - 8%bf
I've done probably around 10 cycles
The last cycle I ran was:

Test 1500mls week
Deca 600mls week
D-bol 50mgs a day

My question is, I've experimented trying to do different things to get the best results. The last couple of cycles, I didnt take any anti E's until I start noticing sides like tenderness and puffyness. and the sides usually always show up around 4 or 5 weeks which is when I start noticing good size and strenght gains. ok, at that point I will take some nolvadex or l-dex. the nolva at 10 - 20 mgs and I-dex .5 ok after taking the anti E's for a couple of weeks the sides go away but my size and strenght gains seem to stay the same or I notice myself getting weaker, and I can go off of the nolv after a couple of weeks and run my cycle another 8 weeks or so but at this point the tenderness or any sides dont return for the length of the cycle and my gains all seem to stop from the time I start the anti'-E's till I go off of them and finish my cycle out, can anyone tell me why that is happening and give me suggestions on doing something different?

any help at all I appreciate,, thanks

**Dude-Man** · 02-23-2007, 02:43 PM

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you hit a mid cycle wall after you take antiestrogens.

Usually, this type of thing is actually pointing out a weakness in diet, as strange as that sounds, and it's possible that you'd hit the same wall without taking any anti estrogens at all.

How long are your cycles? How much time do you take between them? Do you run post cycle therapy ?

**GFLEXXX** · 02-23-2007, 02:46 PM

I'm gyno sensitive as well and had noticed diminished gains in past with such.
Your running a lot of mg/week so have you ever tried running lowered test component in your cycle and running higher anabolics with it at the high levels. Gains can be just as good or better IMO without having to/ or reducing the need supplement for gyno issues.

**Buildingmuscle** · 02-23-2007, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by Dude-Man

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying, but it sounds like you hit a mid cycle wall after you take antiestrogens.

Usually, this type of thing is actually pointing out a weakness in diet, as strange as that sounds, and it's possible that you'd hit the same wall without taking any anti estrogens at all.

How long are your cycles? How much time do you take between them? Do you run post cycle therapy?

mid cycle wall sounds right its like everything stops from that point on and i dont know what to do.

my diet I stay really strict on, unless I need to change up the foods I eat more like instead of eating chicken all the time put some beef or other good proteins in there daily. I may try my next cycle and try and not do the anti-e's and see if my gains stop again mid cycle but then I dont know what to do about the sides if that works. got me puzzlled.

thanks for the advice

**Buildingmuscle** · 02-23-2007, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by GFLEXXX

I'm gyno sensitive as well and had noticed diminished gains in past with such.
Your running a lot of mg/week so have you ever tried running lowered test component in your cycle and running higher anabolics with it at the high levels. Gains can be just as good or better IMO without having to/ or reducing the need supplement for gyno issues.

at lower mls a week the same thing happens I first started out at 250 went to 500 next cycle and then 750 and so on and it always seems to do the samething,
give me an example of a cycle you run since your gyno prone like I am

and thanks for the advice

**Buildingmuscle** · 02-23-2007, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Buildingmuscle

mid cycle wall sounds right its like everything stops from that point on and i dont know what to do.

my diet I stay really strict on, unless I need to change up the foods I eat more like instead of eating chicken all the time put some beef or other good proteins in there daily. I may try my next cycle and try and not do the anti-e's and see if my gains stop again mid cycle but then I dont know what to do about the sides if that works. got me puzzlled.

thanks for the advice

I forgot to tell you the length of the cycles, I did 10 weeks on and 10 off when I first started and now I will usually run it 12 to 16 weeks longer cycles seem to work better for me. I always run pct afterwards

thanks again

**GFLEXXX** · 02-23-2007, 03:15 PM

For myslef anything over 300mg test a week gives me issues without additional aid...

try this:

W1-12 Test 300mg EW
W1-5 OT 50-60mg ED
W4-12 Primo 700mg EW

I have seen some comments on OTurn. causing gyno senstivity, I have not experienced. You probably won't gain as much overall weight as your cycle, but LBM gains are where it's at in my book.

**Buildingmuscle** · 02-23-2007, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by GFLEXXX

For myslef anything over 300mg test a week gives me issues without additional aid...

try this:

W1-12 Test 300mg EW
W1-5 OT 50-60mg ED
W4-12 Primo 700mg EW

I have seen some comments on OTurn. causing gyno senstivity, I have not experienced. You probably won't gain as much overall weight as your cycle, but LBM gains are where it's at in my book.

lean mass is the best in my book too, I will give it a try

thanks for the advice, I didnt know what to do

**frank12391** · 02-23-2007, 07:34 PM

All the wieght and size you put on is most likely all water with that much test and D/bol. So when you used the AI's, you stopped putting on water thats why you havn't seen anymore gains. Check your diet, keep up your calories and work harder. Trust me, there is something wrong with the diet. Post it and we will pick it apart, in a constructive way. A little constructive criticism don't hurt ya. If you don't get it right, you will loose most of your gains. oh and past cycle history pls

**frank12391** · 02-23-2007, 07:40 PM

Originally Posted by GFLEXXX

For myslef anything over 300mg test a week gives me issues without additional aid...

try this:

W1-12 Test 300mg EW
W1-5 OT 50-60mg ED
W4-12 Primo 700mg EW

Yeh, at least with the gains you will get out of this, you will keep most of it and solid and lean.

I would increase the test though. Thats barely over HRT dose. Perhaps 500mg ew and the Primo 200mg eod

**Buildingmuscle** · 02-26-2007, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by frank12391

All the wieght and size you put on is most likely all water with that much test and D/bol. So when you used the AI's, you stopped putting on water thats why you havn't seen anymore gains. Check your diet, keep up your calories and work harder. Trust me, there is something wrong with the diet. Post it and we will pick it apart, in a constructive way. A little constructive criticism don't hurt ya. If you don't get it right, you will loose most of your gains. oh and past cycle history pls

meal 1 - 6 eggs whites, 1 cup oatmeal, and 6-8oz lean meat
meal 2 - protein drink 55gs
meal 3 - 10oz lean meat, 1 cup brown rice, 1 cup vegetables
meal 4 - protein drink 55gs
meal 5 - preworkout drink, no-explode
meal 6 - optimum nutrition pro gainer for post workout drink 600 and some
calories and an hour to hour and a half later next meal
meal 7 - 10oz lean meat, brown rice or sweet patato, and vegetables or a
salad.
meal 8 - protein drink with flax seed oil before bed

there it is pick it apart, and again thanks for all the advice.

i can see losing the water by taking anti-e's but how come after only taking them for a couple of weeks, how is it I can go off of them after that short of a time span and not get tender nips and swollen again, that part I dont understand,,,, alot of questions I know, thanks everybody

**MFT81** · 02-26-2007, 01:54 PM

im just going to throw this out here and maybe we can see how retarded I am but.....

The drugs your using rely alot on estrogen for size gains, hence a lot of water.

Now you say you get good gains till you start running anti-e's for symptoms maybe your gains are being reduced because from what I understand is that estrogen plays a big part in use and by running them your obviously decreasing estro hence your gains are subsiding.

I would try what GFLEXXX suggested,

so how far off am I??

**Buildingmuscle** · 02-27-2007, 06:18 PM

Originally Posted by MFT81

im just going to throw this out here and maybe we can see how retarded I am but.....

The drugs your using rely alot on estrogen for size gains, hence a lot of water.

Now you say you get good gains till you start running anti-e's for symptoms maybe your gains are being reduced because from what I understand is that estrogen plays a big part in use and by running them your obviously decreasing estro hence your gains are subsiding.

I would try what GFLEXXX suggested,

so how far off am I??

your right,,, i will do what GFLEXXX said to do

thanks