Please help out someone

[getfit28]

Ok, I've been posting new threads but I can't get a straight answer.. I'm hoping someone can help out on this one...
I've done Ph's in the past & now decided to run test Cyp alone for the first time (as a beginner). I’m currently on my 2nd week in my cycle & ended up with a bump on my right chest & sensitive nipples. I believe its signs of Gyno… Well I just order some liquifen (same novaldex but in liquid), can I run this with my cycle without quitting my cycle?
Or do you suggest I should just stop my cycle completely & run liquifen?

[Kale]

Yes you can run it and not stop. If its the same as Nolvadex you will need to run about 60mg ED for week and then drop it down as the symptoms subside. I would get some Arimidex as well if I was you it is much better and inhibiting Estrogen than Nolvadex

[jagdpanther]

I would recomend considering Femara, it is a stronger AI then Adex, and studies have been done that show it may actually reduce existing gyno.
Note with either Femara or Arimadex there is ramp up time of about a week before it is effective. During that time I would recomend taking the nolvadex as it will at least block the estrogen receptors for you.

The last thing you may you may wish to consider is adding a highly androgenic compound, like masteron, to shift your hormone balance in favor of androgens. Although this has been shown to be the least effective form of treatment of gyno it would work synergistically with the other two mentioned above.

Here is a link on gyno that describes the hormonal causes and research on three treatments. If you're pressed for time I would recomend that you at the very least read in what is relevent.

down load either the worddoc or pdf

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/maleframe14.htm

Jagdpanther

[Booz]

you should have had your anit estrogens handy before you started the cycle mate..................

[jagdpanther]

you should have had your anit estrogens handy before you started the cycle mate..................

Agreed, let us hope he is living and learning. Not only about anti-E's but about the importance of research.

[getfit28]

I would recomend considering Femara, it is a stronger AI then Adex, and studies have been done that show it may actually reduce existing gyno.
Note with either Femara or Arimadex there is ramp up time of about a week before it is effective. During that time I would recomend taking the nolvadex as it will at least block the estrogen receptors for you.

The last thing you may you may wish to consider is adding a highly androgenic compound, like masteron, to shift your hormone balance in favor of androgens. Although this has been shown to be the least effective form of treatment of gyno it would work synergistically with the other two mentioned above.

Here is a link on gyno that describes the hormonal causes and research on three treatments. If you're pressed for time I would recomend that you at the very least read in what is relevent.

down load either the worddoc or pdf

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/maleframe14.htm

Jagdpanther

thank you all, I did not want to stop my cycle so I will continue it & take the liquifen I just picked up but I will also pick up some femara as you stated above, now my question is how do you suggest I take these... You guys are da bomb for helping out... I know I should have had some novaldex in hand berfore starting my cycle but lesson learn so give a brother a break

[getfit28]

I would recomend considering Femara, it is a stronger AI then Adex, and studies have been done that show it may actually reduce existing gyno.
Note with either Femara or Arimadex there is ramp up time of about a week before it is effective. During that time I would recomend taking the nolvadex as it will at least block the estrogen receptors for you.

The last thing you may you may wish to consider is adding a highly androgenic compound, like masteron, to shift your hormone balance in favor of androgens. Although this has been shown to be the least effective form of treatment of gyno it would work synergistically with the other two mentioned above.

Here is a link on gyno that describes the hormonal causes and research on three treatments. If you're pressed for time I would recomend that you at the very least read in what is relevent.

down load either the worddoc or pdf

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/maleframe14.htm

Jagdpanther

Sorry one more question bud Femara is letro correct from the banner above this ?

[jagdpanther]

Femara = Letro.

I take it more frequenlty the first week to build up its level in the blood.
Usually between .5mg to 1 mg ED. After the first week I will use .5mg ED.
Femara is strong stuff and there are consequences to over supressing your estrogen - so be careful. You will also need to tapper your dose when you are getting ready to stop the femara to avoid estrogen rebound.
As to what dose works for you? That will take a little bit of experimenting on your part. Initially you may want to start at the higher range of the recomended dose to combat the gyno. Once you have a handle on that I would decrease the dose until you are preventing the sides but not taking more then you need. I have heard people go as low as .25mg EOD.

Jagdpanther

[getfit28]

Femara = Letro.

I take it more frequenlty the first week to build up its level in the blood.
Usually between .5mg to 1 mg ED. After the first week I will use .5mg ED.
Femara is strong stuff and there are consequences to over supressing your estrogen - so be careful. You will also need to tapper your dose when you are getting ready to stop the femara to avoid estrogen rebound.
As to what dose works for you? That will take a little bit of experimenting on your part. Initially you may want to start at the higher range of the recomended dose to combat the gyno. Once you have a handle on that I would decrease the dose until you are preventing the sides but not taking more then you need. I have heard people go as low as .25mg EOD.

Jagdpanther

thanks bro you've helped me out big time... Now, Letro from Lions which I believe is the banner up top is that what you're reffering too, correct ? I just sent them an email to see how long would it be untill I get it if I order it today so I will wait for their response... when I contol this problem with letro I will tapper it down & quit it but when I stop my cycle I will jump on the novaldex ?
Thanks man, seem like you know your stuff.. let me know if I need to know something else bro...

[jagdpanther]

I've read that you don't want to run femara and Nolvadex at the same time during pct as they some how minimize each others effect - haven't readthe study this is based on though. Like wise I would stop taking the nolvadex about a week after starting the femara.

Here read this:

http://www.steroid.com/Letrozole.php

From the steriod profiles page you should be able to find the one on Nolvadex as well.

Becareful:
A side from messing up your hdl/ldl ratio lowering your estrogen to much can make you limp. It happened to me while battling gyno - not fun to have to explain to the girl I was in bed with. That experiance did wonders for my self esteem.

[getfit28]

I've read that you don't want to run femara and Nolvadex at the same time during pct as they some how minimize each others effect - haven't readthe study this is based on though. Like wise I would stop taking the nolvadex about a week after starting the femara.

Here read this:

http://www.steroid.com/Letrozole.php

From the steriod profiles page you should be able to find the one on Nolvadex as well.

Becareful:
A side from messing up your hdl/ldl ratio lowering your estrogen to much can make you limp. It happened to me while battling gyno - not fun to have to explain to the girl I was in bed with. That experiance did wonders for my self esteem.

I have not started taking novaldex, I will just order the femara & take that right away throughout my cyle & then stop it after I control this Gyno... but when I finish my cycle wouldn't I have to take some novalex or clomid ?

[jagdpanther]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=290285

Read that and look around for more threads about people's actual experiance.
You can also do searches on PCT or Post Cycle Therapy(google,yahoo). Clomid seems to befalling out of favor with many, me included.
Learn as much as you can then make a rational choice about what you want to use. At that point you could also put up a post stating the length of your cycle, the compounds, their doses, and your proposed plan of PCT. One of the good bros or I will be happy to help.

[getfit28]

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=290285

Read that and look around for more threads about people's actual experiance.
You can also do searches on PCT or Post Cycle Therapy(google,yahoo). Clomid seems to befalling out of favor with many, me included.
Learn as much as you can then make a rational choice about what you want to use. At that point you could also put up a post stating the length of your cycle, the compounds, their doses, and your proposed plan of PCT. One of the good bros or I will be happy to help.

Ok, thanks bro I will look around, I'm just a little confused on taking letro now with my cycle & not sure what to take after my cycle but I'll go from here thanks bro

[vicious cycle]

... but when I finish my cycle wouldn't I have to take some novalex or clomid ?

OMG! Please don't tell me that you started taking AAS without the slightest clue as to what the side affects might be or how to properly use them. If you want to know why steroids have a bad name these days you need look no further than the mirror.

To others who might be looking at my post and thinking it a bit rough, I apologize. It's just getting old. A guy like this posting in desperation "Please help out someone", only to open it and find out that the person didn't help themselves first.

Okay...off soapbox.

[jagdpanther]

OMG! Please don't tell me that you started taking AAS without the slightest clue as to what the side affects might be or how to properly use them. If you want to know why steroids have a bad name these days you need look no further than the mirror.

To others who might be looking at my post and thinking it a bit rough, I apologize. It's just getting old. A guy like this posting in desperation "Please help out someone", only to open it and find out that the person didn't help themselves first.

Okay...off soapbox.

Bro you are right on. I didn't say anything cause he's got gyno to deal with and I thought that needed immediate attenion. I hope he is learning his leason!

[getfit28]

OMG! Please don't tell me that you started taking AAS without the slightest clue as to what the side affects might be or how to properly use them. If you want to know why steroids have a bad name these days you need look no further than the mirror.

To others who might be looking at my post and thinking it a bit rough, I apologize. It's just getting old. A guy like this posting in desperation "Please help out someone", only to open it and find out that the person didn't help themselves first.

Okay...off soapbox.

You know what bro, I've done research I've seen allot of fools like you always throwing in your 2 cents but never really trying to help out, like you some kind of freekin pro at this ! I just really wonder on how long you've been in the game & how much do you really know ? I see you trhowing in your 2 cents but not really saying much... It's ok I don't need your assistance, I will go from here... the other homeboy did what he could without trying to make someone feel out of place...

[jagdpanther]

Ok, thanks bro I will look around, I'm just a little confused on taking letro now with my cycle & not sure what to take after my cycle but I'll go from here thanks bro

For the first week take it @1mg/ED. Second week try moving to 1mg/EOD.
Once your gyno is less try .5mgEOD.

You have time to look at the PCT. Write up what you have figured out and ask for a critque. If it look like you did your foot work most bros will be glad to help out.

You are listening to advice that is both good and refreshing but I also understand where Viscous is coming from. Once you've been on the board a little while you see the same questions like "I want to run 600mg/week of Deca, for 3 weeks, the guy at the gym who sold me the deca told me i would be huge,what do you think?" then they won't believe you when you tell them its a bad idea, some won't believe in deca dick. It can get really frustrating and I do see a negative health and steriod story in the making. I think Vicious was just venting about that. he is also probably writing it for a newbie that might read the thread and hopfully realize the importance of research.

I can also understnad you being pissed at his comment. I do know him from another board and I can say he has given sound advice.

Personaly, I'd roll with it and let it pass.

[vicious cycle]

You know what bro, I've done research I've seen allot of fools like you always throwing in your 2 cents but never really trying to help out, like you some kind of freekin pro at this ! I just really wonder on how long you've been in the game & how much do you really know ? I see you trhowing in your 2 cents but not really saying much... It's ok I don't need your assistance, I will go from here... the other homeboy did what he could without trying to make someone feel out of place...

LMFAO! You did your research...maybe AFTER you got gyno! How can you say you 'did your research' and still say things like '... but when I finish my cycle wouldn't I have to take some novalex or clomid?'

BTW...the other homeboy, as you so eloquently put it, knows me, can vouch for me and has seen photos of me and what I can do in a short amount of time.

And you should be thanking him...he did you research for you.

Best of luck on clearing up your health issue.
-VC-

[getfit28]

For the first week take it @1mg/ED. Second week try moving to 1mg/EOD.
Once your gyno is less try .5mgEOD.

You have time to look at the PCT. Write up what you have figured out and ask for a critque. If it look like you did your foot work most bros will be glad to help out.

You are listening to advice that is both good and refreshing but I also understand where Viscous is coming from. Once you've been on the board a little while you see the same questions like "I want to run 600mg/week of Deca, for 3 weeks, the guy at the gym who sold me the deca told me i would be huge,what do you think?" then they won't believe you when you tell them its a bad idea, some won't believe in deca dick. It can get really frustrating and I do see a negative health and steriod story in the making. I think Vicious was just venting about that. he is also probably writing it for a newbie that might read the thread and hopfully realize the importance of research.

I can also understnad you being pissed at his comment. I do know him from another board and I can say he has given sound advice.

Personaly, I'd roll with it and let it pass.

Thanks bro…
I know where you coming from & maybe I just took it too personal but I’ve read allot of threads before where people are being put down for a simple question cause they’re new to the game but maybe that’s their initiation.. LOL
I just refused to be one of them put downs & did not want someone to make me feel like I’m taking the easy way cause I’m not, I did do some research but still had some questions .... Anyway I
did not mean to offend anybody & if I did I apologize…. You’ve been good to
me dog & I will see you around this site… who knows maybe someday I can answer a question for you… take it easy dog

[getfit28]

LMFAO! You did your research...maybe AFTER you got gyno! How can you say you 'did your research' and still say things like '... but when I finish my cycle wouldn't I have to take some novalex or clomid?'

BTW...the other homeboy, as you so eloquently put it, knows me, can vouch for me and has seen photos of me and what I can do in a short amount of time.

And you should be thanking him...he did you research for you.

Best of luck on clearing up your health issue.
-VC-

Whatever dog, like he said I should let it go.... Mr. profisional vicious steroid guy... (nothing personal). you got me this was a lesson learned,,... but next time I'll make sure I got everything down packed... take it easy

[HEADCASE79]

I can see where getfit is coming from as well as vicious. I'm new to AAS as well I'm 27 and looking into my first cycle. Now on getfits side it is hard getting answers some times, I'm trying to put together my pct and everyone has there own opinion. So you read one thing and you think you did good next thing you find out you're being knocked because it's all wrong. But on Vicious' side I would be getting sick of hearing the same shit over and over again. But Vicious you also have to remember we all start some where. I'll speak for all of us new guys and say we do appreciate the help especially in times like getfit.

[johnmacdan]

I can see where getfit is coming from as well as vicious. I'm new to AAS as well I'm 27 and looking into my first cycle. Now on getfits side it is hard getting answers some times, I'm trying to put together my pct and everyone has there own opinion. So you read one thing and you think you did good next thing you find out you're being knocked because it's all wrong. But on Vicious' side I would be getting sick of hearing the same shit over and over again. But Vicious you also have to remember we all start some where. I'll speak for all of us new guys and say we do appreciate the help especially in times like getfit.

I can appreciate what you are saying. There is so much information on this site it is hard to process. Everything I read leads to more questions. I've read a ton on here and it has helped. I am tweaking my diet and my first cycle from what I've read on here.

I'm not even new to doing most of this stuff, only new to learning about it. I played football over a decade ago. We worked out hard, ate a ton and did gear. All we wanted was to be big and didn't care. Some guys had problems from it that last til this day. Now I'm a little smarter (hopefully), want to be healthy and want to do things right. I even got a HRT clinic to help, but compared to here they don't know crap or don't offer the info. What they prescribed me isn't going to work and will most likely cause side effects. I have them going back to the drawing board. So I want to thank everyone who has been helpful. It most likely kept me out of trouble.

[vicious cycle]

I can see where getfit is coming from as well as vicious. I'm new to AAS as well I'm 27 and looking into my first cycle. Now on getfits side it is hard getting answers some times, I'm trying to put together my pct and everyone has there own opinion. So you read one thing and you think you did good next thing you find out you're being knocked because it's all wrong. But on Vicious' side I would be getting sick of hearing the same shit over and over again. But Vicious you also have to remember we all start some where. I'll speak for all of us new guys and say we do appreciate the help especially in times like getfit.

Sorry bro, don't see it that way. Let me count the ways getfit screwed up here. Also let me say that it is not personal. I care about our community at large.

1. (from post 1)

I’m currently on my 2nd week in my cycle & ended up with a bump on my right chest & sensitive nipples. Well I just order some liquifen (same novaldex but in liquid), can I run this with my cycle without quitting my cycle?

He ordered anti-e's after he started the cycle.

2. (post 7)

Sorry one more question bud Femara is letro correct from the banner above this ?

He's ready to order something else and he doesn't even know what it is or how to take it. 10 seconds worth of google would have given him the answer to this one.

3. (post 9)

when I stop my cycle I will jump on the novaldex ?

From this we can gather he hasn't even heard of PCT. Let alone prepared for it or researched it.

4. (post 11)

but when I finish my cycle wouldn't I have to take some novalex or clomid ?

Again, no idea about PCT

5. (post 13)

Ok, thanks bro I will look around, I'm just a little confused on taking letro now with my cycle & not sure what to take after my cycle but I'll go from here thanks bro

NOW he wants to "look around". When you start a cycle, you should be confused about nothing.

6. (post 16)

You know what bro, I've done research

I think we've proven he has not.

7. (post 19)

but I’ve read allot of threads before where people are being put down for a simple question

I just refused to be one of them put downs & did not want someone to make me feel like I’m taking the easy way cause I’m not, I did do some research but still had some questions

It's not just a "simple question". It's his health he is putting at risk as well as our community. I think I've beaten the research horse to death now. If he still had questions, that is fine. But the time to ask those questions is not AFTER you start the cycle and exhibit signs of gyno!

8. (post 20)

Whatever dog, like he said I should let it go.... Mr. profisional vicious steroid guy... (nothing personal). you got me this was a lesson learned,,... but next time I'll make sure I got everything down packed... take it easy

It's obvious from his wanna be ghetto slang talk down to the way he reacts when someone refuses to hold his hand that getfit is dangerous not only to himself but to us as a community.

I don't know the guy and really have nothing against him and wish him the best of luck. But, if only one new person reads this and realizes that there are very real health risks (some gyno requires surgery) and decides to look better before they leap; then getfit can think whatever he wants about me because it will have been worth it.

For what it's worth, I do remember what it was like to start out. I got kicked off my first board for being stupid. Lesson learned.

Peace
-VC-

[vicious cycle]

Apparently I'm not the only one who feels this way:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=289957

[jagdpanther]

Although I see both sides I back vicious cycle. It is like people don't understand what research means. A lot of posters on this board seem to think that serious research means a couple of hours for two or three nights.
It is not even a time issue it comes down to what you understand.
I've been reading and responding to posts here for about a month.
What have I seen? People(not everyone but enough that it is frightening) that tell me they've done tons of research when they
1) don't know where or what a steriod profile is
2) Repeatedly ask why they should always run some test when on a cycle
3) don't understand that they will shut down while on cycle
4) never mind that they can't tell the difference between an AI and a SERM,
they don't even know that test is converted to estrogen which is one of the main causes of unwanted side effects
5) They don't know test is converted to DHT one of the other leading causes of side effects
6) they don't know the possible side effcts period.
7) They don't know about cycle lengths, and the reasons people use different lengths.
8) They don't know what PCT is never mind what to take for it or why
The list goes on.

If people can find the board,register and postthen they have the skills to at least find the stuff for research. I understand some concepts can be tricky and another person help will shed light, but alot of the questions asked aren't about the details they don't know of the idea.
I still get stuff wrong or don't know something that is okay, but literally these questions sometimes verge on absurd in light of the fact that they claim to have done lots of research. Fine if your not sure if you want to use clomid or nolvadex for PCT but at least you know the acronym PCT,and that it should be at the end of your cycle(not reffering to anyone in specific).

Another problem is that someone with experiance will help out and write a little then point the way a little more by putting in a couple of links to important information. The idea is that the poster read the links then ask questions. Within the time of two or three breaths the original poster is asking a question that shows he didn't even bother to clickon the links never mind read them.

Vicious cycle is also right that these people are being a danger to themselves
and the community as a whole. There are already enough forces lined up to spin negative propoganda about steriods without us giving them ammunition.
Jail and/or a record are not things I want. Nor do I ever want to be in a local newspaper for a steroids bust. In my local community, at my age, that would follow me to my grave. The only way that the attitude is going to change (and possibly the laws although i doubt it ) is if people are educated starting with us.
I used to say if you want to play doctor with a syringe you better play doctor with the books first - I still try and live by that even with something like acne medicine. I researched accutane, found out that surprisingly there were many serious sides (I take using accutane more seriously then using Tren -alot of people on this word will advise sure use accutane but don't use tren till later it has to many sides). I went into starting accutane knowing what the possibilities were after a week atthe minimum dose I stopped cause I was getting bad sides. Will that happen to everyone using accutane no, but I knew what to look for cause I read before starting what the sides were.
Would you let someone who had no knowledge about a substance inject it in to your body? (I hope everyone answers no) Then how could an individual who knows nothing about a substance inject it in to their body.

You know I say I see both sides cause my number one priority is the posters health but really VC is right on this one.

okay rant mode has been turned off, now everyone can tell me to go piss myself,

Jagdpanther

[HEADCASE79]

O.K. I understand what you are both saying. If you are new to this like I am I can go read what one guy says about pct and two posts later another guy is saying use other forms of AI or SERM. How is a new guy suppose to tell who knows more? Some guys get shown everything and still don't listen I see that but other guys are just told to go do research because you guys that know your shit are sick of the guys that don't listen. Yet I understand completely because I'd probably be the same way. The only thing that sucks is that I am the kind of guy that will listen because I don't want to go and **** myself up.

[johnmacdan]

I'm one of those people that read, ask questions, read more, ask questions, etc. and then make up my own mind. Since I don't know anyone on here and they don't know me, it is hard to take everything they say as the gospel. It never hurts to ask a question though. I did and it stopped me from starting a bad cycle at the wrong time.

I'm getting long in the tooth though. When I was young, I did the same thing this guy did. Take it and deal with any problems later. Luckily I didn't have any problem.

[jagdpanther]

O.K. I understand what you are both saying but if you are new to this like I am I can go read what one guy says about pct and two posts later another guy is saying use other forms of AI or SERM. How is a new guy suppose to tell who knows more? Some guys get shown everything and still don't listen I see that but other guys are just told to go do research because you guys that know your shit are sick of the guys that don't listen. Yet I understand completely because I'd probably be the same way.

Bro there is science in this and there is art as well. Some people will get sides from product x others won't. I try and take into account my research and what all the people have said. I think it over and try an experiment on myself with the protocol I think makes the most sense. Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
Some people like clomid for PCT, others nolvadex(or nolvadex and a not femara AI). I tried clomid first because that was the old school standard, found out it was very likely making me depressed and have decided to try Nolva with adex this time around. Keep living and learning. A lot of times more then one answer maybe be right, or there may be only be one right answer for an individual.

[jagdpanther]

Since I don't know anyone on here and they don't know me, it is hard to take everything they say as the gospel.

Don't ever take anyone's answer as gospel! It sounds like you are doing the right things bro keep going.

[HEADCASE79]

I hear what you're say jagdpanther and believe I'm greatful for being on here and learning from what you guys have lived and are willing to pass on. I'm not a mouthy little punk that thinks it's my way or no way. I've wanted to do aas since I was a young teenager and I had the brains not do them till I knew more. I've always thought I knew quiet a bit about aas and guess what I just found out what pct is, so I know shit and that's why I'm on here all the time now.

[installer]

I just want to put my 2 cents into this .... I am new in todays standards to aas and would ask only one questions of the experianced people on this site .. why are you here? why do you read these posts? Do you purposefully look for the new guys to kick them while there down? and you say "do research", i have read my brains out on ALOT of different sites and i still have so many questions myself, what do you call asking questions?... i call it RESEARCH!!!!! .... but VC you are right he should have had pct ready to go no excuse for that.... thanks for reading my rant ....

[vicious cycle]

I'm one of those people that read, ask questions, read more, ask questions, etc. and then make up my own mind. Since I don't know anyone on here and they don't know me, it is hard to take everything they say as the gospel. It never hurts to ask a question though. I did and it stopped me from starting a bad cycle at the wrong time.

I'm getting long in the tooth though. When I was young, I did the same thing this guy did. Take it and deal with any problems later. Luckily I didn't have any problem.

Jag is right. There is a science to this and some basic rules to follow.

1. Know what the risks are of the compound you want to take and have the necessary products on hand to combat those risk IF you should need them.

Most every AAS has associated side effects. Because people are different, these sides may or may not hit you. But, you must know what they are and how to deal with them BEFORE you ever start. Google the damn drug and read, read and read!

2. More is not better. This is for the newer guys. Classic first cycle is 500mg test eth a week for 12 weeks. As for PCT...this is where I really get hacked off; guys, THERE IS AN ENTIRE FORUM HERE DEDICATED TO IT! My personal favorite is http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=169502

There you have it new guys. If you still have questions, post like you at least have a clue. Post your stats (age, height, weight and so on) Post your goal. Post your diet. Post what you think the cycle should be INCLUDING PCT. Then post what you don't understand. You will gain so much respect from people this way!

3. Most importantly, you must have your diet down. Whether it's cutting or bulking.

Diet is 85-90% of this game and whether or not you will succeed or fail. If you don't have a diet plan down pat, then put your little needles and cotton balls away. You are wasting your time and money.

4. Be realistic about your goals. Science can only help what God has created, it cannot change it.

I would love to be Nathan Jones http://content.answers.com/main/cont...athanjones.jpg But the simple fact is I'm 5'9 with smaller bones. All the AAS in the world is not going to make me 6'10 and 340 lbs. http://www.healthchecksystems.com/bodyfat.htm this is a good place to start. From this I learned that there was no way I could enter my upcoming comp at 154lbs. I would have to be 0% bodyfat (dead) and still lose muscle mass.

As my Mom use to say. Believe half of what you see and nothing of what you hear. Don't trust some stranger behind a keyboard. Don't trust you 'guy' at the gym. Trust multiple people and books and scientific data from many places.

In other words - Use the damn common sense God gave you!

-VC-

[vicious cycle]

Holy Crap...look at this:
http://forums.steroid.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

An entire section dedicated to EDUCATIONAL POSTS! And people wonder why I'm a little rough...Good Grief!

[Booz]

O.K. I understand what you are both saying. If you are new to this like I am I can go read what one guy says about pct and two posts later another guy is saying use other forms of AI or SERM. How is a new guy suppose to tell who knows more? Some guys get shown everything and still don't listen I see that but other guys are just told to go do research because you guys that know your shit are sick of the guys that don't listen. Yet I understand completely because I'd probably be the same way. The only thing that sucks is that I am the kind of guy that will listen because I don't want to go and **** myself up.

what works for one guy may not work for the next,do your research and try thingd out,this is the only way you will for certain know what works for you and what dosent.......................

[getfit28]

Alright I can admit that I f -up big time & no one is to blame but me.... I got my first aas from this dude & I got too excited thinking that I can start this & then just p/u my pct later but it's not that easy & is not the way to do this... I did do some reading before my first injection but I just did not want to believe it but damn reality hit me boy...so, for any newbies out there listen to this people that been around for long time...

Vicious, sorry man I did'nt mean to come back with an attitude like that I guess I just did not want to hear it if someone was not willing to help but I now know where you coming from..

Panther, you helped out allot & thanks, I will let you all know how I come along with this I really think it's not to bad yet so I can cure this little bump.