Building A Base, Is This True?

**SHRED'D** · 03-23-2007, 07:37 PM

Ok, ive been reading my ass off here today. Im a bit confused....im getting alot of "You are 6ft 165lbs, you should be 200lb at that height for a good base to start with". So what people are saying is that no matter your physical build, no matter your genetic makeup, you should be approx 200lbs at 6 ft tall? Im just trying to get as much info as possible so that i may make the most educated choice. Is genetics a myth? or does this actually play a roll in physical build?

I just wonder where i should be based off my physical build before turning to aas. Every male in my family has a thin lean build except my brother, who lucked out with a shorter frame 5-09 at 185 lbs.

Thanks

**MartyMcFly** · 03-23-2007, 09:12 PM

If you are that tiny you will still gain muscle but it you will lose it just as fast as you gained it. I didn't start til I was 200 lbs and I am 5"9. I was 140 when I graduated HS a few years back and put on the weight naturally. It just takes dedication. If you can't eat and train right at your current weight, you will be like those dumbasses in the gym who get swole for about 4 months and lose it all.

**Benches505** · 03-23-2007, 09:32 PM

Unfortunately without a base the gains leave really fast. Eat like a machine for a year and get your base up and go from there. Get as close to 200 as possible before juicing.

A friend of mine was like 140lbs and stayed on the sauce for 2 years straight and got to 180. 3 months after he went off he was 145

**Cat316** · 03-23-2007, 09:52 PM

Wont be worth it w/o a base...eat like crazy and train for a bit to do it correct

**D-Money** · 03-23-2007, 10:39 PM

I think it is extremly important to build a base before hitting the juice. I've notice guys that trained naturally before doing aas are always better off. However I think it is complete b***s**t when people say you gotta hit a certain weight in order to start a cycle! I don't understand why guys just make a statement like that with out taking in consideration a persons bodyfat persentage, lean body mass etc. We all know that two 5'10 185lb guys can look totally different depending on those factors. However, I think it's important to get the training and eating down first before taking aas, because thats the most important part.

Originally Posted by SHRED'D

Ok, ive been reading my ass off here today. Im a bit confused....im getting alot of "You are 6ft 165lbs, you should be 200lb at that height for a good base to start with". So what people are saying is that no matter your physical build, no matter your genetic makeup, you should be approx 200lbs at 6 ft tall? Im just trying to get as much info as possible so that i may make the most educated choice. Is genetics a myth? or does this actually play a roll in physical build?

I just wonder where i should be based off my physical build before turning to aas. Every male in my family has a thin lean build except my brother, who lucked out with a shorter frame 5-09 at 185 lbs.

Thanks

**Titleist** · 03-23-2007, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by D-Money

I think it is extremly important to build a base before hitting the juice. I've notice guys that trained naturally before doing aas are always better off. However I think it is complete b***s**t when people say you gotta hit a certain weight in order to start a cycle! I don't understand why guys just make a statement like that with out taking in consideration a persons bodyfat persentage, lean body mass etc. We all know that two 5'10 185lb guys can look totally different depending on those factors. However, I think it's important to get the training and eating down first before taking aas, because thats the most important part.

I agree with this. When there is nothing more you can do with your diet and training, that is when I think AAS are an option. This is after you have had your diet adjusted and readjusted, researched, & had your diet critiqued by knowledgable bros. When your gains have been halted for a while and you feel like you have reached your genetic potential, that is when you make the choice to jump to the dark side...

**topnotch** · 03-23-2007, 10:47 PM

Saying 200 is just a good rule of thumb, not a necessity...but at 6 feet tall, then to have a good build and base, with good muscle, 200 should be able to be reached naturally with hard work and wouldn't matter your genetic make-up in most circumstances...when your not at 200, it's a good possibility, b/c of lack of training time, and most importantly bc of lack of a correct diet.

**SMAN12b** · 03-23-2007, 11:25 PM

We are only able to give general advice as we do not know the entire DNA makeup of each person.

we are only talking averages that the person WHO WISHES TO GAIN MASS should be able to get to natural for that height.

I was a skinny scrawny kid all through high school at 5'11" and never got past 175 while in school.
I learned how to eat and trained and got to about 210 before ever taking any AAS

again, its just generalities. a 6 foot person that wants to be Mr Olympia should be able to acheive at least 210 before starting to add AAS to the mix

if someone whom is 6' and only 165, just wants to add 10-15 lbs of muscle, then they should easily be able to do that naturally cause a 6' frame should hold that without needing to use steroids to get there

**Titleist** · 03-23-2007, 11:54 PM

Originally Posted by SMAN12B

We are only able to give general advice as we do not know the entire DNA makeup of each person.

we are only talking averages that the person WHO WISHES TO GAIN MASS should be able to get to natural for that height.

I was a skinny scrawny kid all through high school at 5'11" and never got past 175 while in school.
I learned how to eat and trained and got to about 210 before ever taking any AAS

again, its just generalities. a 6 foot person that wants to be Mr Olympia should be able to acheive at least 210 before starting to add AAS to the mix

if someone whom is 6' and only 165, just wants to add 10-15 lbs of muscle, then they should easily be able to do that naturally cause a 6' frame should hold that without needing to use steroids to get there

Also agreed.

**Dobie-BOY** · 03-24-2007, 04:24 AM

I would say that you should do all you can naturally for a year or two. Then hit the juice. Im a little more liberal in my thinking towards juicing than most people on this board though.

**Warrior** · 03-24-2007, 04:38 AM

You should not only have a good physical base - but you should have plenty of research and application with training and nutritional variables. Read, read, read - get psyched about training theories and different approaches to getting ripped (without drugs) first. The drugs should only amplify your program - not BE your prgoram.

If you hit the sauce right away - without building up strong connective tissue, developing a strong mind-muscle connection, and a heavy knowledge regarding your personal diet and training variables... you won't know how to keep what you gained; making thew whole thing reckless... and you could get injured - gear with bad form, equals big-time injuries...

Get to know your body first. Develop it. Train your mind to know what you will need as you advance. Make sure that you have the proper discipline and motivation to dedicate yourself to what seems interesting today. After awhile, if the iron bug still has you and you feel you have a solid understanding of nutrition and training varaibles - augment with AAS.

**Schmidty** · 03-24-2007, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

You should not only have a good physical base - but you should have plenty of research and application with training and nutritional variables. Read, read, read - get psyched about training theories and different approaches to getting ripped (without drugs) first. The drugs should only amplify your program - not BE your prgoram.

If you hit the sauce right away - without building up strong connective tissue, developing a strong mind-muscle connection, and a heavy knowledge regarding your personal diet and training variables... you won't know how to keep what you gained; making thew whole thing reckless... and you could get injured - gear with bad form, equals big-time injuries...

Get to know your body first. Develop it. Train your mind to know what you will need as you advance. Make sure that you have the proper discipline and motivation to dedicate yourself to what seems interesting today. After awhile, if the iron bug still has you and you feel you have a solid understanding of nutrition and training varaibles - augment with AAS.

i think you said it all

**marcus300** · 03-24-2007, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior

You should not only have a good physical base - but you should have plenty of research and application with training and nutritional variables. Read, read, read - get psyched about training theories and different approaches to getting ripped (without drugs) first. The drugs should only amplify your program - not BE your prgoram.

If you hit the sauce right away - without building up strong connective tissue, developing a strong mind-muscle connection, and a heavy knowledge regarding your personal diet and training variables... you won't know how to keep what you gained; making thew whole thing reckless... and you could get injured - gear with bad form, equals big-time injuries...

Get to know your body first. Develop it. Train your mind to know what you will need as you advance. Make sure that you have the proper discipline and motivation to dedicate yourself to what seems interesting today. After awhile, if the iron bug still has you and you feel you have a solid understanding of nutrition and training varaibles - augment with AAS.

Thats what I was going to say but you put it alot better...

***perfectbeast2001*** · 03-24-2007, 05:13 AM

AS prodeces rapid strength gains. The tendons and suppoting tissues will not have had time to get stonger and used to heavier loads as they would if you had developed a solid base. AS + no base = injuries

**jagdpanther** · 03-24-2007, 09:55 AM

I agree that one should know how to eat and train before starting a cycle.

I also agree with perfectbeast's statement below this is frequenlty over looked.

Originally Posted by perfectbeast2001

AS prodeces rapid strength gains. The tendons and suppoting tissues will not have had time to get stonger and used to heavier loads as they would if you had developed a solid base. AS + no base = injuries

As far as reaching your natural limit before starting AAS, well that is what I'd recommend if you're twenty something and wish to compete in BB. If your in your thirties and want to improve the quality of your life I don't think reaching your natural limit is a valid prerequisite. The only prerequisites i see in that scenario are :

1) are you healthy enough to take AAS
2) you should know how to train and eat
3) you should be aware of the tendon issues that can accompany a sudden increase in strength
4) you have basics down of AAS use before starting, AIs, serms,PCT, sides etc

The only hope of AAS becoming legitimate(a long shot) in the US is having the general public benefit from its use. People living longer provides greater reason for AAS use as it can improve the quality of their lives. I really think the day and mentality of steroids being reserved for elite bodybuilders and athletes needs to come to an end.

**BigD_2b** · 03-24-2007, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by jagdpanther

I agree that one should know how to eat and train before starting a cycle.

I also agree with perfectbeast's statement below this is frequenlty over looked.

As far as reaching your natural limit before starting AAS, well that is what I'd recommend if you're twenty something and wish to compete in BB. If your in your thirties and want to improve the quality of your life I don't think reaching your natural limit is a valid prerequisite. The only prerequisites i see in that scenario are :

1) are you healthy enough to take AAS
2) you should know how to train and eat
3) you should be aware of the tendon issues that can accompany a sudden increase in strength
4) you have basics down of AAS use before starting, AIs, serms,PCT, sides etc

The only hope of AAS becoming legitimate(a long shot) in the US is having the general public benefit from its use. People living longer provides greater reason for AAS use as it can improve the quality of their lives. I really think the day and mentality of steroids being reserved for elite bodybuilders and athletes needs to come to an end.

Appreciate the post.

I think everyone's goals are different - we can't all be pros.

though i do value that most on this forum stand by the 'ideal' way of doing things - if nothing else it forces you to think through doing this, which can have some serious consequences

d

**jagdpanther** · 03-24-2007, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by BigD_2b

though i do value that most on this forum stand by the 'ideal' way of doing things - if nothing else it forces you to think through doing this, which can have some serious consequences

d

I'm all for tyring to do things the right way and improving all the time. There can be very serious consequences to improper AAS use that is why i'm a big stickler about research. hell i don't even take my doctor's word on meds, I'll research RXs he writes me.

**BigD_2b** · 03-24-2007, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by jagdpanther

I'm all for tyring to do things the right way and improving all the time. There can be very serious consequences to improper AAS use that is why i'm a big stickler about research. hell i don't even take my doctor's word on meds, I'll research RXs he writes me.

one of my degrees is in pharmacy. I don't practice anymore but let me tell you from experience what a great idea that is. Never just pop a pill without knowing what you're doing

**Manpretty** · 03-24-2007, 05:33 AM

shred'd you still havent posted your diet in either of your threads................i suggest you do this instead of seeing what peoples opinions on having a good base is........

you arent going to get around the fact you are not ready for steroids ......

at 165 and 6 feet tall you have lots of work to do my freind

**MuscleScience** · 03-24-2007, 05:51 AM

I think if your as strong as you can get and big as you can get then your ready, but not before that. You can train and eat all you want but if you have crap genetics you will never move beyond what your body will allow naturally. A lot of people forget that the human body isnt good at retaining large amounts of muscle mass. Its not benefical to the body to spend all that energy to keep huge amounts of muscle mass if its not needed. Obvousely training and taxing the muscles does cause you to retain muscle but the body wants to only put on as much mass as absolutely needed. Steroids will bring you past that genetic barrier that some people reach earlier than others.

**helium3** · 03-24-2007, 06:53 AM

personally i would say that mastering basic lifting teqhniques and having a good diet,are the bare essentials needed to make aas work for you.

a base to work from is important for many reasons,least of which is the mental state you require to make your hard work pay off,its no easy route,commitment and patience are required to sustain a long and productive training career,too many people rush and end up losing everything theyve gained or end up perminently injuring themselves.

so to conclude a base is important.

**stvn21_** · 03-24-2007, 08:34 AM

not so much a base but an understanding of nutrition/bodybuilding, how to train and eat correctly to achieve your goal

example

(newbie) hasnt trained, wants to juice so he does.. runs a good cycle, has no real understanding of diet, basic understanding of how to train.. gains 15lbs in a cycle, mostly water cause his nutrition was shit. Loses most of it following pct, then loses everything cause his diet is trash

**Dude-Man** · 03-24-2007, 09:25 AM

I was 135 lbs at 5'8 and maybe 4% bodyfat when i graduated high school.. and i was able to get to 195 lbs natty. It's all about being disciplined, eating right, training hard, and resting properly.

**BigD_2b** · 03-24-2007, 09:34 AM

I'm going to probably get flamed for this but I'm sort of a case study lol

i trained for about a year; got stronger but didn't grow much. I have a tiny frame and had a seriously hard time gaining any weight, though I probably put on about 8 lbs during that year.

I had a chance to do a cycle and just completed it. I gained about 25 lbs and looks like I'll keep a lean 13 or so.

So without a great base the challenge will be to keep what I've gained. Maybe I'll just dwindle back to normal size or maybe I can keep most of it and keep growing naturally before trying this again...I'll certainly post results. So I'll see if I just gradually shrink back to my old size...or if this was a good boost...TBD

I have a few pics and more info posted in the members pics section so take a look if you'd like. Probably not impressive to many of the seniors on here but I am very happy with the results thus far

**fLgAtOr** · 03-24-2007, 04:00 PM

There is no magical weight that you have to be.

Many times the reason people quote numbers, is becuase they were 6'2" 160lbs at one point. They know what it was like and what it took to get where they are now.

**SHRED'D** · 03-24-2007, 04:07 PM

Wow... now this is the feedback im looking for lol.
Manpretty- i did in fact post an example of my diet, but you must have overlooked or came in too late on this topic. In fact i believe it was Titleist who stated it was better than what was expected but could be tweaked a bit.
I spoke with a personal trainer today. Now i know i know... "A personal trainer wheeeew!" but this guy has obviously did his homework as he has been at it for approx 10 yrs and has many many clients that sware by him. He too takes aas but has limited himself to deca and hgh the last 4yrs.

He is on the same page as BigD2b in the fact that he realizes im not here to enter competitions, im not here to be 225 of solid mass. He stated that each individual is different based of age, experience, genetics and also by what the intentions of each person in regards to aas.
As i am 33 yrs old, deff not looking to enter competitions and have limited experience, he stated that if the proper technic ie eating/diet along with "using your head" when lifting and realizing that bigger, more and heavier is not always the best thing, that a newbie could easily take a cycle and have amazing affects. He also said that he suggests with what i have a t hand, to start with 2iu's hgh increasing to 3 as i progress and to also go with one or the other, deca or trenbolone ..starting with 1/2cc twice a week and then increase to 1cc at once one time a week. He seemed like he was leaning toward the tren because he was explaining its chemical makeup and that it doesnt convert to est. He did say that a test would also be good to go along with this as my bodies test would drop to nill. He stated that the side affects are typical of others with the aggression added in. This is in a nutshell what he said as my fingers are getting a workout between my actual work and typing this hahaa! So, please....ADVISE! he didnt feel my build was an issue and that the combo of adding hgh will deff help me keep the majority of what i gain...

**BigD_2b** · 03-24-2007, 04:43 PM

Originally Posted by SHRED'D

Wow... now this is the feedback im looking for lol.
Manpretty- i did in fact post an example of my diet, but you must have overlooked or came in too late on this topic. In fact i believe it was Titleist who stated it was better than what was expected but could be tweaked a bit.
I spoke with a personal trainer today. Now i know i know... "A personal trainer wheeeew!" but this guy has obviously did his homework as he has been at it for approx 10 yrs and has many many clients that sware by him. He too takes aas but has limited himself to deca and hgh the last 4yrs.

He is on the same page as BigD2b in the fact that he realizes im not here to enter competitions, im not here to be 225 of solid mass. He stated that each individual is different based of age, experience, genetics and also by what the intentions of each person in regards to aas.
As i am 33 yrs old, deff not looking to enter competitions and have limited experience, he stated that if the proper technic ie eating/diet along with "using your head" when lifting and realizing that bigger, more and heavier is not always the best thing, that a newbie could easily take a cycle and have amazing affects. He also said that he suggests with what i have a t hand, to start with 2iu's hgh increasing to 3 as i progress and to also go with one or the other, deca or trenbolone..starting with 1/2cc twice a week and then increase to 1cc at once one time a week. He seemed like he was leaning toward the tren because he was explaining its chemical makeup and that it doesnt convert to est. He did say that a test would also be good to go along with this as my bodies test would drop to nill. He stated that the side affects are typical of others with the aggression added in. This is in a nutshell what he said as my fingers are getting a workout between my actual work and typing this hahaa! So, please....ADVISE! he didnt feel my build was an issue and that the combo of adding hgh will deff help me keep the majority of what i gain...

I was pleased with the results of deca/test. I looked into tren but felt that was better left for much later if at all. just my $0.02

**Manpretty** · 03-24-2007, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by SHRED'D

Wow... now this is the feedback im looking for lol.
Manpretty- i did in fact post an example of my diet, but you must have overlooked or came in too late on this topic. In fact i believe it was Titleist who stated it was better than what was expected but could be tweaked a bit.
I spoke with a personal trainer today. Now i know i know... "A personal trainer wheeeew!" but this guy has obviously did his homework as he has been at it for approx 10 yrs and has many many clients that sware by him. He too takes aas but has limited himself to deca and hgh the last 4yrs.

He is on the same page as BigD2b in the fact that he realizes im not here to enter competitions, im not here to be 225 of solid mass. He stated that each individual is different based of age, experience, genetics and also by what the intentions of each person in regards to aas.
As i am 33 yrs old, deff not looking to enter competitions and have limited experience, he stated that if the proper technic ie eating/diet along with "using your head" when lifting and realizing that bigger, more and heavier is not always the best thing, that a newbie could easily take a cycle and have amazing affects. He also said that he suggests with what i have a t hand, to start with 2iu's hgh increasing to 3 as i progress and to also go with one or the other, deca or trenbolone..starting with 1/2cc twice a week and then increase to 1cc at once one time a week. He seemed like he was leaning toward the tren because he was explaining its chemical makeup and that it doesnt convert to est. He did say that a test would also be good to go along with this as my bodies test would drop to nill. He stated that the side affects are typical of others with the aggression added in. This is in a nutshell what he said as my fingers are getting a workout between my actual work and typing this hahaa! So, please....ADVISE! he didnt feel my build was an issue and that the combo of adding hgh will deff help me keep the majority of what i gain...

ok well do whatever you want man....just like most new guys....... at 165 and 6ft you are teeny tiny dude

gear your brains out....it wont help....anyway im done maybe someone else will take the time to talk you out of aas

**SHRED'D** · 03-24-2007, 05:18 PM

BigD,
What if any side effects did you see from deca ? I was reading about both deca and tren and it seemed that tren is the deal right now... people are beating down doors to get it.... very positive results from what i gather. Guess why he was leaning toward tren because the deca can have a chance of "man boobs" haha.... since it coverts to est, al be it at a low percentage.
He also said to start with a low dose as im not a "body Builder" nor am i trying to be. Im doing this to give a healthy fit look in a shorter period of time. Now after seeing results im sure my opinion may change.... but for now, just having a clean cut bod iswhat im looking for.
What does everyone think about the idea that hgh will help hold some extra mass on after a cycle? Understanding that diet and workout will be giant factors still.
All i do is read this info on all the diff websites all day and trying to gain as much info from the guys that have did aas "by the book" along with the guys that maybe took a diff route.

**BigD_2b** · 03-24-2007, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by SHRED'D

BigD,
What if any side effects did you see from deca ? I was reading about both deca and tren and it seemed that tren is the deal right now... people are beating down doors to get it.... very positive results from what i gather. Guess why he was leaning toward tren because the deca can have a chance of "man boobs" haha.... since it coverts to est, al be it at a low percentage.
He also said to start with a low dose as im not a "body Builder" nor am i trying to be. Im doing this to give a healthy fit look in a shorter period of time. Now after seeing results im sure my opinion may change.... but for now, just having a clean cut bod iswhat im looking for.
What does everyone think about the idea that hgh will help hold some extra mass on after a cycle? Understanding that diet and workout will be giant factors still.
All i do is read this info on all the diff websites all day and trying to gain as much info from the guys that have did aas "by the book" along with the guys that maybe took a diff route.

happy to tell you about my personal experience but I have to defer to the guys on here who know so much more than me

best I can tell, since I pulled off the deca 3 weeks before the test, deca made me bloat and made me strong. The test made me aggressive and horny as hell. After about 2 weeks off the deca a lot of the water came off and I dropped about 8 lbs quickly.

I got a few nosebleeds one week and bloated enough to go up 2 inches in waist in jeans. drank loads of H20 and cut salt at that point

didn't get any gyno per se but did have sore nipples for a few weeks which is probably a precursor

again, i feel out of place giving you advice since i don't know sh*t compared to others - but that was my exp

**SHRED'D** · 03-24-2007, 05:21 PM

Jagdpanther,
I also agree with you even though i dont have any experience with aas. Im hearing the same thing from guys at the gym that understand, not everyone is looking to have a gold medal around their necks. I just want as much info as i can get before making a decision one way or the other.
Thanks

**SHRED'D** · 03-24-2007, 05:47 PM

Easy killa!
All im trying to do is gather as much data from everyone as i can. Im reading and learning, trust me. Im just not conviced that a guy with my build cant benefit from cycling. I know a guy who didnt know a thing about aas and weights.... he started cycling because to say the least, he was a fat 29yr old 5-08 guy. since memorial day last yr, he has transformed into something unreal ...compared to what he was.
Im not saying im a perfect canidate for this...i just want to get the facts..all the facts... good and bad. So.... please dont take my persistant questioning as though im pissing in your face... im truely not, all the advise is important to me!

**SHRED'D** · 03-24-2007, 05:49 PM

BigD,
when did you post those pics? i couldnt locate them...

**BigD_2b** · 03-24-2007, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by SHRED'D

BigD,
when did you post those pics? i couldnt locate them...

here is the link for what it's worth

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...=1#post3393807

**skat** · 03-25-2007, 12:12 PM

Im looking to build a base before deciding to cycle AAS. I know a bit about it through these forums but not enough. I weigh 188lbs at 5,11. My body fat is about 15%. Been training on and off for a few years. Never been serious and never made any gains. Know about diet a lot more now. My question is:

What gains are achievable naturally before AAS for me do u think guys? I wud appreciate your advice. Thanks again.

**juice4life** · 03-25-2007, 12:39 PM

Originally Posted by skat

Im looking to build a base before deciding to cycle AAS. I know a bit about it through these forums but not enough. I weigh 188lbs at 5,11. My body fat is about 15%. Been training on and off for a few years. Never been serious and never made any gains. Know about diet a lot more now. My question is:

What gains are achievable naturally before AAS for me do u think guys? I wud appreciate your advice. Thanks again.

I think you need to get your bodyfat to around 10% and still be at that weight before you touch them.

I'm 6' 185 lbs right now, and my goal for along time was to get to 200lbs naturally before I touched any gear. I'm only 21 and I still keep seeing how much my body changes naturally when I just force myself to be perfect in my training and diet.

I made it to 200lbs a while back, but like you I was between 12-15% BF and It just made me sick looking in the mirror. I continually keep making new goals for myself and it keeps me off the gear. I have now made it down to 185 around 9-10% BF and my goal, no matter how long it takes is to get to a lean 200lbs before I put any gear in me.

I believe that you can achieve whatever goals you put your mind to (within reason) without anabolics.

I don't understand all of the young guys around here that don't understand that if they can't put that good, solid, natural base on, they aren't gonna put any solid gains on with anabolics.

BG · 03-25-2007, 01:16 PM

IMO opinion base is everything, I waitted until 30 yrs old to do my first cyle, now with a real good base I get great gains, mostly keepable.

**timtim** · 03-25-2007, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by BigGuns101

IMO opinion base is everything, I waitted until 30 yrs old to do my first cyle, now with a real good base I get great gains, mostly keepable.

if anyone is training for years and years seriously and cant gain any weight then you dont know your body or your diet and gear is the last thing you need. i dont care about excuses, i had a kid on 9500 calories a day to gain a small amount of weight and he did. its what your willing to do and what you know, not the drugs.