Riddle me this

[Outta Kontrol]

Hi crew,
I've been doing some research on the "strategy" of cycles and I am running into a few brick walls so I have a some questions on the subject. I did not really want to take a poll but instead wanted to ask about personal experience and reccomendations. I do realize that this is subject to personal taste and what works for you doesn't always work for someone else but I thought it would be worth discussing. I read Marcus300s' thread on frontloading (answered a ton of my questions), I understand the concept of kickstarting a cycle with an oral such as Dbol, and even though I would never do it, I have a firm grasp on tappering also. What I am having a delima with is determining the benefits of starting a cycle with a short ester such as Prop for the first couple weeks then using a long ester such as Enth or Sust for the remainder of the cycle... compared to... using a long ester first and then a short ester for the last few weeks. I am aware that by running a short ester in the beginning of the cycle you would feel/see results faster. However, if you run short esters at the end of your cycle could you do PCT and get your "boys" back to work sooner? Which is more benificial? Which would you prefer? Hopefully I made a little sence. (just a little)

I just wanted to pose these questions to you guys and see what thoughts you may have on the subject. I hope this thread isn't of another redundant question that has been answered over and over again. Thanks

O.K.




Marcus' thread:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t=frontloading

[Outta Kontrol]

BTW I am not getting ready to start a cycle just gathering up some more info before I do. Either way, my stats are visible in the Public Profile

[Outta Kontrol]

bump

[Outta Kontrol]

no comment

[iggyh28]

I would definitely start my cycle with the prop because Im so ansious in the beginning to see results and at the end of the cycle what I did last time when I was running test-e was that I started takeing the hcg like 3 days after my last shot and also the novadex and arimadex in other words I started my pct early wile the test was still tapering down by its self and ran it for about 45 days (stoped the arimadex like 15 days before the novadex)

The other thing you can do is to just run the prop not the enathate

[jagdpanther]

I use a combination of short and long ester in the begining two weeks then use only long esters in the middle and switch to short for the last 2-4 weeks of a cycle depending on the length of the long ester and the steriod base(s).

One difficulty a new guy would run into with the combination of short and long esters at the begining of a cycle is shot frequncy. Alot of realestate is required for proper injection site rotation when you shoot ED. If you are new to shooting this means alot of virgin muscle being broken in at the same time. - A very uncomfortable two weeks.

Another way to front load is to increase the frequncy and dose of the long ester injections for the first couple of weeks then reduce it to the regular weekly schedule after that. Under most circumstances a beginer would encounter 4 injection sites would be more then sufficient for this.

You should know that alot of people don't front load nor do they switch to short esters at the end of a cycle and still do very well. In the bigger picture of things I sometimes think frontloading/short_esters_at_the_end is more of a symptom of a type A personality then a benefit to long term gains. Diet and training would certainly have a greater impact.

[Outta Kontrol]

I did not consider personality type at all. Very interesting. So are you saying there is no true benefit in "how" you cycle? As long as your the training and diet is on point gains will be made? The purpose of using these techniques is because we are impatient...?

Jag, I agree, shot rotation for short esters can be discouraging for and entire cycle, and this is one reason why I ask this question.

[jagdpanther]

No I'm not saying there is no benefit. I think there is. Just when all is said and done and you compare the average guy who a has been front loading to an average guy that has not, after several years of training and cycling I don't think frontloading will be the determining factor in how far each went. I know some people who are big into keeping it simple and they get great results.
As far as personality types go I'm a tweaker, in that I like to adjust things for what I consider to be maximum efficiency. For example as I kid I wanted to get the muffler for my car that gave me an extra 5hp. Not that I ever raced but if I did there are so many other factors that would outweigh the added 5hp like driving skill, reaction time, the car, and the type of course.

All that being said the 5hp would probably be a bonus pyscologically much like getting or feeling change a little quicker in a cycle from front loading. It also does allow for a longer growth period at a higher rate.

For competing athletes on a time table, it may make the difference, but for a guy in his late thirties that likes to play sports and always wants to be in better shape I think either method would work fine. I fit into the second category. My personality makes frontloading and tweaking fun for me so that is a large part of why I do it. I get a spread sheet out and keep track of injections sites and everything else.

[Warrior]

While there are more cycling theories out there - here are a few common practices... consider it an intro to AAS cycles...

Pyramiding
Pyramiding refers to a gradual increase in androgen levels, followed by a gradual taper off. The gradual taper up is normally consistent with the normal administration - heavy esters take time to build up. The taper down is from either spreading the dose out or adminstering less.

This idea is not normally accepted today, due to a common understanding that the HPTA (endogenous production) can not fully recover until all exogenous use stops. The use of post cycle therapy drugs also have made this way of coming off less popular - instead of tapering off, drugs like Clomid are used to support getting natural levels back up quickly.

Flat Pyramiding
Flat pyramiding refers to an initially gradual increase in androgen levels; the gradual taper up is normally consistent with the normal administration - heavy esters take time to build up. After even plasma levels are reached; subsequent administration is kept consistent for even plasma levels. Once the cycle is over; all drug use is terminated with no taper down. After the last ester runs it's course, post cycle therapy is used.

This is probably the most common way to cycle AAS today.

Short and Heavy
Short and heavy cycles refers to those in which the total steroid burden per week is typically more than double previous weekly androgen use but the cycle is kept to 30-40 days... with a pre-cycle priming period to sensitize the body for a more productive growth spurt.

This method is not for beginners. Those using this method should have a good understanding of what supraphysiological levels of androgens due to their system. This is especially important when heavy/long esters are used for the short cycle - since, frontloading (below) to get blood levels up right away means a very heavy initial dose.

This method has been around for awhile, but it hasn't caught much mainstream attention. With a proper prime, lean weight gains are significant in a very short period. It simply takes some advanced cycle, training and nutrition knowledge about oneself to do it all correctly.

Frontloading
Frontloading refers to using the same compound with a short ester to get blood levels up right away. Frontloading can also be accomplished with heavy esters by increasing the use before the first half life; general frontloading guidance is to double the weekly maintenance dose before the first half life.

Frontloading has been around for awhile but is not commonly used. The idea is to get blood levels of the parent hormone up right away, so results come faster.

Some feel frontloading is not necessary, nor productive; others use the method simply for steroids that have very heavy esters; many use it to get a cycle started and subsequently ended faster - with less HPTA impact.

Jump Starting
Jump starting refers to starting a cycle of heavy ester steroids with a compound that has either: a short ester, no ester or is a 17a-A oral.

This is an old and very common practice. Dianabol is commonly used to jump a mass-building cycle; given its good pumps, general increase in disposition and quick weight gain.

Bridging
Bridging refers to the use of an anabolic steroid to fill an "off" period of AAS use. Bridging is typically only needed by those whom have exceeded a lean body mass that their system can not naturally support. Briding is often done with drugs that either have minimal impact on the HPTA (endogenous androgen production) or by using quickly metabolized compounds once per day (such as taking a single dose of Dianabol or testosterone suspension).

Staggered
A staggered cycles involve swaping out compounds and doses; normally quite frequently. This is typically a long cycle - constantly getting extended to help further gains when they go static. Many feel this is a very ineffective method unless you really know what you are doing... certainly not something for beginners.

[jagdpanther]

nice post warrior

[Outta Kontrol]

Thanks guys for th cycle 101 course. This is all very usefull and helpfull information when deciding on a cycle to run. I think what a lot of beginners of AAS fail to do is look deeper in the tactics of a cycle before taking that first shot. Live and learn. I consider "how" I run my cycle just as important as "what" I run. I am a tweeker too! Economist would say "I want the mostest and bestest for the leastest". And if there is a way to do so then I am all about it. I am just trying to toy with the idea of running a cycle that I can see gains right away, run shorter, recover sooner, and maintain/keep the gains. SO I am drawn to your cycle technique Jag. I think you guys have given some sound advice here. Thanks Jag and Warrior....

[Warrior]

Thanks guys for th cycle 101 course. This is all very usefull and helpfull information when deciding on a cycle to run. I think what a lot of beginners of AAS fail to do is look deeper in the tactics of a cycle before taking that first shot. Live and learn. I consider "how" I run my cycle just as important as "what" I run. I am a tweeker too! Economist would say "I want the mostest and bestest for the leastest". And if there is a way to do so then I am all about it. I am just trying to toy with the idea of running a cycle that I can see gains right away, run shorter, recover sooner, and maintain/keep the gains. SO I am drawn to your cycle technique Jag. I think you guys have given some sound advice here. Thanks Jag and Warrior....

Keep your thinking cap on - here is one resource that will keep you busy for hours: PubMed.com

[Outta Kontrol]

Keep your thinking cap on - here is one resource that will keep you busy for hours: PubMed.com

You are right about that Warrior. I have been here all day!!!! lol