Best GYNO killer

**FutureMonster** · 05-18-2007, 01:25 PM

What is best to take during cycle to minimize chances of developing gyno? Arimidex , Letro?

**kfrost06** · 05-18-2007, 01:50 PM

Letro is the strongest but has stronger side effects. The term best varies from cycle to cycle. No sense in taking something stronger then necessary but when push comes to shove letro wins hands down for preventing(even reversing) gyno.

**lifterjaydawg** · 05-18-2007, 05:35 PM

Letro iss the best. Best AI for fighting gyno.

**magic32** · 05-19-2007, 10:29 PM

All you need to know about GYNO.

M.

**HomesliceYEA** · 05-20-2007, 01:38 AM

raloxifene works damn well

**pip_squeek** · 05-20-2007, 02:06 AM

arimidex works good for me

**KAEW44** · 05-20-2007, 03:07 AM

Surgery to remove fat tissue from the breast works well.

**JaCKeDuPD** · 05-20-2007, 12:32 PM

dont go letro untill u really have no choice (already have gyno) if you dont already have it steer clear from letro some ppl get nasty sides off it... anyways go with arrimidex, works good to prevent it if you jumping on cycle With gyno definetly letro the way to go! good luck bytch tits are the worst definetly need an AI while on cycle better safe then sorry goodluck

**blondmyth** · 05-20-2007, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by KAEW44

Surgery to remove fat tissue from the breast works well.

its not just the tissue if you're a good surgeon, its the actual glands underneath, this way, you'll never have to take an AI again!!

**Decoder** · 05-20-2007, 02:22 PM

SURGERY!! LOL is the best gyno killer.

**Conciliator** · 05-20-2007, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by HomesliceYEA

raloxifene works damn well

I second this. Raloxifene is the best SERM for preventing gyno. Been shown in research to work better than Nolva.

**Saunacrank** · 05-20-2007, 06:04 PM

whys no one saying nolva?

**Decoder** · 05-20-2007, 07:46 PM

nolva is good but it does not block!, that is why.

**fLgAtOr** · 05-20-2007, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Saunacrank

whys no one saying nolva?

Nolva is supposed to bind to the eestro receptor in breast tissue...Therefore preventing the binding of real estro. Unfortunatly, this is usually not the case.

In addition, it doesn't do anything for the other side effects of high estrogen floating around...Bloating can actually be rather serious with regards to blood pressure. Some also find that acne is reduced with the use of an AI.

**Conciliator** · 05-21-2007, 12:36 AM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

Nolva is supposed to bind to the eestro receptor in breast tissue...Therefore preventing the binding of real estro. Unfortunatly, this is usually not the case.

Why is this "usually not the case"? That's precisely what nolvadex is approved for and used for as a prescription drug.

I agree that an AI is the best first line of defense. But if gyno still pops up, it's time to take some raloxifene.

**fLgAtOr** · 05-21-2007, 03:23 AM

Originally Posted by Conciliator

Why is this "usually not the case"? That's precisely what nolvadex is approved for and used for as a prescription drug.

I agree that an AI is the best first line of defense. But if gyno still pops up, it's time to take some raloxifene.

Why do you think we have Arimidex and Letro, and now Raloxifene????

Becuase Nolva is an old drug...and isn't the best for our needs.

**TheSentinal** · 05-21-2007, 03:59 AM

Adex Ldex

**kfrost06** · 05-21-2007, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Conciliator

I second this. Raloxifene is the best SERM for preventing gyno. Been shown in research to work better than Nolva.

That is a false statement. Raloxifene does NOT work better then Nolvadex in preventing gyno. Studies have shown they work equally as well, Raloxifene simply has lower chances of causing blood clots with long term use, aka Thromboembolism which is a blood clot that breaks off and can plug another vessel.

Heres the most recent study...

"Effects of Tamoxifen vs. Raloxifene on the Risk of Developing Invasive Breast Cancer and Other Disease Outcomes". The Journal of the American Medical Association 295 (23): 2727-2741.

here's a link to that study...

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...95.23.joc60074

When taking during a cycle or for PCT they work equally well so go with the cheaper one. If you need to take one daily for years then Raloxifene would be the better choice because of reduced risk of thromboembolic events and cataracts.

**kfrost06** · 05-21-2007, 09:50 AM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

Why do you think we have Arimidex and Letro, and now Raloxifene????

Becuase Nolva is an old drug...and isn't the best for our needs.

We have Raloxifene because we are constantly looking for a better SERM, the curent SERMs are not selective enough. Though they are good at blocking the breast tissue production and lowering LDL they increase blood clot risk and for women they increase uterine cancer risk. The SERM binds to the ERs, in some like breast tissue it is not able to be activated preventing gene activation where in other ERs it is activated which may cause health problems with long term use.

the AIs like Letro and Arimidex were designed for post-menopausal women. Estrogens are produced and secreted by the ovaries so a female taking an AI has nearly no effect but women after menopause get most of their estrogen from the conversion of hormones released from the adrenal glands and other organs. This is why AIs work so well, they inhibit the conversion to estrogen. Since men do not have ovaries and we get our estrogen from the conversion of testosterone by the aromatase enzyme an AI works well to prevent the production of estrogen. But remember estrogen is good and we need estrogen in our blood stream to be healthy. An AI should only be used when gyno symptoms appear and should be titrated back down once symptoms dissipate. Use a SERM instead of a AI when at all possible. SERMs do not inhibit the production of estrogen like AIs do. SERMs are far superoir then AIs overall. For worse case scenario use an AI otherwise stick with a SERM.

**fLgAtOr** · 05-21-2007, 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

We have Raloxifene because we are constantly looking for a better SERM, the curent SERMs are not selective enough. Though they are good at blocking the breast tissue production and lowering LDL they increase blood clot risk and for women they increase uterine cancer risk. The SERM binds to the ERs, in some like breast tissue it is not able to be activated preventing gene activation where in other ERs it is activated which may cause health problems with long term use.

the AIs like Letro and Arimidex were designed for post-menopausal women. Estrogens are produced and secreted by the ovaries so a female taking an AI has nearly no effect but women after menopause get most of their estrogen from the conversion of hormones released from the adrenal glands and other organs. This is why AIs work so well, they inhibit the conversion to estrogen. Since men do not have ovaries and we get our estrogen from the conversion of testosterone by the aromatase enzyme an AI works well to prevent the production of estrogen. But remember estrogen is good and we need estrogen in our blood stream to be healthy. An AI should only be used when gyno symptoms appear and should be titrated back down once symptoms dissipate. Use a SERM instead of a AI when at all possible. SERMs do not inhibit the production of estrogen like AIs do. SERMs are far superoir then AIs overall. For worse case scenario use an AI otherwise stick with a SERM.

Well, that's sort of what I was getting at...But you had to go and make it sound...fancy.

I do prefer AIs though. I think that gyno shouldn't be the limiting factor here. There are other (high)estro related sides as well. Not everyone is senitive to gyno, and one may not come with the other.

SERMS don't aid in estrogen control...and in some cases, act as one (remember-"selective").

I personally believe that it comes down to dosage control. Too many people have jumped on the bandwagon tha we need to be running 5mg of letro 3 times a day. The ultimate goal here is to keep estro at a reasonable level...Not allow it to increase out of control OR eliminate it altogether.

Many of the sides from AIs come from improper use. (Holy shit. I bet you never heard that before!) Altered lipids, immunity deficiencies, joint probs, insufficient libido, lethargy.......These would be eliminated if people used these things properly.

**Conciliator** · 05-22-2007, 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

That is a false statement. Raloxifene does NOT work better then Nolvadex in preventing gyno. Studies have shown they work equally as well, Raloxifene simply has lower chances of causing blood clots with long term use, aka Thromboembolism which is a blood clot that breaks off and can plug another vessel.

I said Raloxifene has been shown in research to work better than Nolva [for gyno]... and it has: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15238910. "CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia , with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen ." And this was looking at gyno rather than at breast cancer in 60 year old postmenopausal women.

So there

**Conciliator** · 05-22-2007, 12:11 AM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

Why do you think we have Arimidex and Letro, and now Raloxifene????

Becuase Nolva is an old drug...and isn't the best for our needs.

No, that's not why. As kfrost06 said, it's primarily because the newer drugs, like raloxifene are safer. They have fewer risks and side effects. It's not because "it's usually not the case" that Nolvedex "binds to the estro receptor in breast tissue." It does that pretty well.

**kfrost06** · 05-22-2007, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by Conciliator

I said Raloxifene has been shown in research to work better than Nolva [for gyno]... and it has: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q..._uids=15238910. "CONCLUSION: Inhibition of estrogen receptor action in the breast appears to be safe and effective in reducing persistent pubertal gynecomastia , with a better response to raloxifene than to tamoxifen ." And this was looking at gyno rather than at breast cancer in 60 year old postmenopausal women.

So there

That is not a fact, "Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect." that is the final line in the abstract you failed to quote. The study was done on 38 patients versus 1000s in the study I linked. Nevertheless it is a good find. It begs the question of what is the inherent difference between pubertal gynocomastia and aas induced gynocomastia. Gyno is caused by many differnet reasons, which one is most closely related to aas use. Some is simply due to being obese which unfortunately is what our youths are experiencing today. I think to determine which one is "better" is simply to find which has a stronger binding affinity to the ERs in the breast tissue as well as it's bioavailability. Maybe we will get lucky and someone will post a link to that.

I am not trying to get in a pissing contest with you but would love to hear your thoughts and knoweldge on the matter, no need for antagonizing smiling faces.

**fLgAtOr** · 05-22-2007, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Conciliator

No, that's not why. As kfrost06 said, it's primarily because the newer drugs, like raloxifene are safer. They have fewer risks and side effects. It's not because "it's usually not the case" that Nolvedex "binds to the estro receptor in breast tissue." It does that pretty well.

I didn't think I said anything outrageous...

The gentleman above asked why Nolva wasn't being promoted alot in this thread. I guess what I was trying to say is that it isn't that effective for most people. Yes, it works for some, but not all...And it also doesn't help other estro related sides. I am one of them...And I know you will find plenty more. It's not that effective.

Nolva is what is referred to as a first-gen breast cancer drug. It's usually the first choice for women...But we have newer and more effective drugs now. So if Nolva doesn't work, then Dr.s perscribe things stronger.

...Not exactly sure what I was wrong on?

**John88Test** · 05-22-2007, 08:30 PM

theoretically speaking...if i ran out of arimidex could i use nolva without seeing too many problems in the gyno ***artment. ??? thanks...not trying to hjijack

**Kimo27** · 05-22-2007, 08:51 PM

whats on of the major side affects of letro?

**SilverToungedDevil** · 05-22-2007, 10:50 PM

nice post...

**Conciliator** · 05-23-2007, 02:57 AM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

I didn't think I said anything outrageous...

The gentleman above asked why Nolva wasn't being promoted alot in this thread. I guess what I was trying to say is that it isn't that effective for most people. Yes, it works for some, but not all...And it also doesn't help other estro related sides. I am one of them...And I know you will find plenty more. It's not that effective.

Nolva is what is referred to as a first-gen breast cancer drug. It's usually the first choice for women...But we have newer and more effective drugs now. So if Nolva doesn't work, then Dr.s perscribe things stronger.

...Not exactly sure what I was wrong on?

No, you're still saying the same incorrect thing. The newer drugs are used because they're safer, not because they're more effective. I'd read this: Best GYNO killer

**Conciliator** · 05-23-2007, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

That is not a fact, "Further study is required to determine that this is truly a treatment effect." that is the final line in the abstract you failed to quote. The study was done on 38 patients versus 1000s in the study I linked. Nevertheless it is a good find.

A study never establishes a fact. There's always the possibility of statistical errors (like a false positive) and systematic errors. P values are not statements of fact, but of probability. Any prudent researcher will acknolwedge that their data is not necessarily the final word on something.

However, it is a fact that Raloxifene has been shown in research to work better than Nolva for reversing gyno. And other research, in a different population and with different end points, has shown Raloxifene to be as good as Nolvedex at treating breast cancer.

Originally Posted by kfrost06

It begs the question of what is the inherent difference between pubertal gynocomastia and aas induced gynocomastia. Gyno is caused by many differnet reasons, which one is most closely related to aas use. Some is simply due to being obese which unfortunately is what our youths are experiencing today. I think to determine which one is "better" is simply to find which has a stronger binding affinity to the ERs in the breast tissue as well as it's bioavailability. Maybe we will get lucky and someone will post a link to that.

Yeah, that would be interesting to see. I think obesity is often linked to gyno because adipose tissue is a major site of aromatization. More body fat = more estrogen.

Originally Posted by kfrost06

I am not trying to get in a pissing contest with you but would love to hear your thoughts and knoweldge on the matter, no need for antagonizing smiling faces.

I couldn't help it... sorry

**NewBreed** · 05-23-2007, 06:08 AM

Exemestane worked better tan Letro, because it wouldn´t block aromatase compeltely like letro and has fewer sides like Nolva or Clomifene in me, which are hairloss, serious mood swings and some tracers and opticals...

No such things with Exemestane and a good estrogen control with less acne and better blood pressure, less bloat... overall a very good control over e and very happy with it!

**Conciliator** · 05-23-2007, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by NewBreed

Exemestane worked better tan Letro, because it wouldn´t block aromatase compeltely like letro and has fewer sides like Nolva or Clomifene in me, which are hairloss, serious mood swings and some tracers and opticals...

No such things with Exemestane and a good estrogen control with less acne and better blood pressure, less bloat... overall a very good control over e and very happy with it!

Yeah, I think exemestane is a great AI. My personal choice.

**fLgAtOr** · 05-23-2007, 07:30 PM

Originally Posted by Conciliator

No, you're still saying the same incorrect thing. The newer drugs are used because they're safer, not because they're more effective. I'd read this: Best GYNO killer

Arimidex and Letro are not more effective at sytemic estrogen reduction?

Letro is safer than Nolva?

**fLgAtOr** · 05-23-2007, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by Conciliator

I second this. Raloxifene is the best SERM for preventing gyno. Been shown in research to work better than Nolva.

?????

**Conciliator** · 05-24-2007, 01:24 AM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

Arimidex and Letro are not more effective at sytemic estrogen reduction?

Letro is safer than Nolva?

Now you're comparing apples to oranges, AI's to SERMS, not older SERMS to newer SERMS. You're also commiting an equivocation fallacy by switching from discussion about the effectiveness at preventing gyno to effectiveness at systemic estrogen production. In other words, you're sloppy with your arguments and it's futile discussing things with people like you.

**Conciliator** · 05-24-2007, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

?????

Best GYNO killer

**fLgAtOr** · 05-24-2007, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by Conciliator

Now you're comparing apples to oranges, AI's to SERMS, not older SERMS to newer SERMS. You're also commiting an equivocation fallacy by switching from discussion about the effectiveness at preventing gyno to effectiveness at systemic estrogen production. In other words, you're sloppy with your arguments and it's futile discussing things with people like you.

You won't be here for long with that kind of attitude...I don't think you understand that I wasn't trying to "outsmart" you. You seem to have taken this thread personally, when I had no sort of intention.

In my defense, yes I was lumping the two together...And I made the mistake of assuming everyone knew that (where I said "I prefer AIs though..."). I thought my point was simple: I prefer AIs becuase they are more effective than Nolva.

So with that said, considering your tone to me and the other gentleman in this thread, I'm assuming you are just here to pick a fight. And considering you made the comment above just based on the clarity of my post...I have no interest in this.

**Conciliator** · 05-24-2007, 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

So with that said, considering your tone to me and the other gentleman in this thread, I'm assuming you are just here to pick a fight. And considering you made the comment above just based on the clarity of my post...I have no interest in this.

No, not here to pick a fight. I'm just tired of talking about things on the internet with people who can't stay focused in a discussion and who use sloppy logic. It's futile. We said two or three times that newer SERMS are not used because they're more effective, but because they're safer. You kept saying the converse, which is incorrect. You then start talking about unrelated things, about AIs and a completely different end-point.