HTPA Shutdown....

[Property of Steroid.com]

Nope. I've got nothing against gay people. Dr.Scuggs (an early HRT doc) is/was gay and was a pioneer in the industry.

Edit: Some doctors work specifically with bodybuilders because they're gay, and ther'es a gay-for-pay involved. Let's get that out on the table. Read the Nolvadex profile. That's a true story of a gay doctor writing a 'script in return for sex, which is what brought nolvadex out of the theoretical realm into the BB'ing world.

It's still happening today.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Swale's a private Endo and to my knowledge, is still practising. So he's doing something right.

I know you dont like Swale and really, as soon as I mentioned his name, knew you'de come flying in to try to discredit his opinoin/theories/views. It was obvious. But I was looking to see if natural T can be maintained and came across his post(s) on CEM.

Which answered my question of, "Can natural T be maintained when hypogondal from androgens?". Swale says, YES.

IMHO, discussion over. Swale is a qualified Endo and specialises in that field. Enough in my book.

He says yes. He's got no studies or evidence to back him. Not even bloodwork. Isn't that suspicious.

So you think that being a doctor (endo) is enough? Why haven't any champion athletes worked with him? Why was he a mod on a site where nobody ever claimed that he helped resotre their HPTA? Weird, huh?

[Swifto]

Nope. I've got nothing against gay people. Dr.Scuggs (an early HRT doc) is/was gay and was a pioneer in the industry.

Edit: Some doctors work specifically with bodybuilders because they're gay, and ther'es a gay-for-pay involved. Let's get that out on the table. Read the Nolvadex profile. That's a true story of a gay doctor writing a 'script in return for sex, which is what brought nolvadex out of the theoretical realm into the BB'ing world.

It's still happening today.

Yet you make refferences like, "...who won anything more than a blowjob from Swale...".

And, "ha ha. Looks like he needs a few more yuears in medical school and a few less ones in the Gay Bar."

Hhmm....Strange.

He says yes. He's got no studies or evidence to back him. Not even bloodwork. Isn't that suspicious.

So you think that being a doctor (endo) is enough? Why haven't any champion athletes worked with him? Why was he a mod on a site where nobody ever claimed that he helped resotre their HPTA? Weird, huh?

Its a ****ing good reason to believe someone though isnt it. Either way you slice this, he's still a qualified Endo and still practising. So, again, he's doing something right.

He went through years of med school. Some of us didnt. So If all his clients think he's whack, why hasnt he been struck off?

Seems to me like you doing everything in your power to discredit him and his views. Quotes and all.

I'm not getting into one of our debates, with childish responses. I said it in the other 'cyo and gyno' thread. I simply cannot be bothered to argue with members on internet forums going backwards and forwards, over and over.

I'll be using HCG at a low dose when shutdown and I'll see how that goes. If it works, excellent. If not, oh well. I'm sure more protocols and theories will arise as time goes on.

[Property of Steroid.com]

He went through years of med school. Some of us didnt. So If all his clients think he's whack, why hasnt he been struck off?

Seems to me like you doing everything in your power to discredit him and his views. Quotes and all.

Yeah...I mean...who actually thinks an AI will raise test levels. Besides the FACT that it's been medically proven, time and again, and was shown to be safe, SWALE says you shouldn't do it.

So let me ask you:

Does this mean you will no longer use an AI in PCT. Swale said so, and he's an endo. So you need to stop using an AI, right? Because he's correct, because he is an endo. Correct? Or no?

He's been removed form the only board he was ever on that matters, for mental instability, and his former clients say that his advice was cookie-cutter and didn't restore their HPTA. None of his theories are supported by studies or bloodwork.

But hey...he's gone through medical school. So even though all the evidence shows he's wrong, and nothing supports his protocol, the diploma hanging on his wall is much more valid than actual results, I guess.

So will you keep using an AI for PCT, out of curiousity, because clearly SWALE is correct, and we're all wrong, and you shouldn't. So will you?

I'm not getting into one of our debates

We don't debate. You're wrong, and I explain why. You fail to understand it, and reply. That's not a debate.

Now lets see some evidence that HCG will do what you/swale claims it will. Anything. Any study. Any bloodwork. Anything at all.

[x_moe]

I like Cake
(i beat sman to it)

[Property of Steroid.com]

Yet you make refferences like, "...who won anything more than a blowjob from Swale...".

And, "ha ha. Looks like he needs a few more yuears in medical school and a few less ones in the Gay Bar."

Hhmm....Strange.

.

I would say the same thing about someone who was helping women in return for sex (not that I'm saying SWALE is doing that).

There's plenty of people in this industry who do porn, gay for pay, etc...it's something that I mention all the time...gay or not. I don't care...

Hell...Melissa Detwiller is interviewed in my magazine, and in her last video she's getting a dildo shoved in her ass by Denise Masino! I say it, but it's not anything against her or anyone...just a fact.

[Swifto]

Yeah...I mean...who actually thinks an AI will raise test levels. Besides the FACT that it's been medically proven, time and again, and was shown to be safe, SWALE says you shouldn't do it.

So let me ask you:

Does this mean you will no longer use an AI in PCT. Swale said so, and he's an endo. So you need to stop using an AI, right? Because he's correct, because he is an endo. Correct? Or no?

He's been removed form the only board he was ever on that matters, for mental instability, and his former clients say that his advice was cookie-cutter and didn't restore their HPTA. None of his theories are supported by studies or bloodwork.

But hey...he's gone through medical school. So even though all the evidence shows he's wrong, and nothing supports his protocol, the diploma hanging on his wall is much more valid than actual results, I guess.

So will you keep using an AI for PCT, out of curiousity, because clearly SWALE is correct, and we're all wrong, and you shouldn't. So will you?


We don't debate. You're wrong, and I explain why. You fail to understand it, and reply. That's not a debate.

Now lets see some evidence that HCG will do what you/swale claims it will. Anything. Any study. Any bloodwork. Anything at all.

I'm going to get back to helping people where I can. Newbie or not Anthony.

Once more. I'm fed up with arguing to and fro with you. And believe me, its not because I think your right and I'm wrong at all. Everything's always a battle. You vs the world.

Post a study otherwise its bullshit, prove this, prove that. Copy and pasting quotes from other boards etc...C'mon, lets try to act like adults once in a while.

I'll stick to what I think is right. You stick to what you think. Its not the end of existance as we as a human race know is it.

You can carry on post after post trying to disagree with me and discredit Swale (and you will now).

But...

I'm done on this thread and with your responses.

[Giants11]

Honestly, could we try and get back on topic here. There is no reason to get into a Swale vs AR debate. Anthony has his opinions and that is fine. Let's not beat a dead horse, let's just continue the discussion, cause it was turning out to be a very good one.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I'm going to get back to helping people where I can. Newbie or not Anthony.

Once more. I'm fed up with arguing to and fro with you. And believe me, its not because I think your right and I'm wrong at all. Everything's always a battle. You vs the world.

Post a study otherwise its bullshit, prove this, prove that. Copy and pasting quotes from other boards etc...C'mon, lets try to act like adults once in a while.

I'll stick to what I think is right. You stick to what you think. Its not the end of existance as we as a human race know is it.

You can carry on post after post trying to disagree with me and discredit Swale (and you will now).

But...

I'm done on this thread and with your responses.

Ok...you can't post a study supporting your claims, and you say it's b.s. that I ask for it. Alright...then answer this:

SWALE says using an AI to raise test is a bad idea. Will you now stop using an AI for PCT?

You have quoted me, but failed to answer that. Just answer it.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Honestly, could we try and get back on topic here. There is no reason to get into a Swale vs AR debate. Anthony has his opinions and that is fine. Let's not beat a dead horse, let's just continue the discussion, cause it was turning out to be a very good one.

There's no evidence to really support HCG on a cycle, is there? I mean...real evidence?

[Giants11]

Yeah...I mean...who actually thinks an AI will raise test levels. Besides the FACT that it's been medically proven, time and again, and was shown to be safe, SWALE says you shouldn't do it.

So let me ask you:

Does this mean you will no longer use an AI in PCT. Swale said so, and he's an endo. So you need to stop using an AI, right? Because he's correct, because he is an endo. Correct? Or no?

He's been removed form the only board he was ever on that matters, for mental instability, and his former clients say that his advice was cookie-cutter and didn't restore their HPTA. None of his theories are supported by studies or bloodwork.

But hey...he's gone through medical school. So even though all the evidence shows he's wrong, and nothing supports his protocol, the diploma hanging on his wall is much more valid than actual results, I guess.

So will you keep using an AI for PCT, out of curiousity, because clearly SWALE is correct, and we're all wrong, and you shouldn't. So will you?


We don't debate. You're wrong, and I explain why. You fail to understand it, and reply. That's not a debate.

Now lets see some evidence that HCG will do what you/swale claims it will. Anything. Any study. Any bloodwork. Anything at all.

I do think in certain circumstances an AI should not be used in PCT, at least for the first week or 2.

My reasoning is, if you have a cycle that is already suppressing estrogen, total estrogen would be very low as you enter into PCT. I see no added benefit of lowering further. As there are many issues that can arise when estrogen is too low.

I am not making a point for Swale's statement, rather I am throwing out another point that we can discuss.

[10nispro]

Will age determine when and if htpa will shutdown?

[Giants11]

There's no evidence to really support HCG on a cycle, is there? I mean...real evidence?

No.....But I think as a theory perhaps it is worth discussing. Just because something doesn't have any studies doesn't mean that one cannot develop a theory, based upon ones knowledge of how HCG works....


Anthony, don't you have theories based upon your knowledge of particular drugs etc.....without studies to prove your exact theory? I mean would assume you do. I mean isn't that how we get studies to begin with, some Dr/Scientist has a theory and then tests it?

[Giants11]

Will age determine when and if htpa will shutdown?

No, the drugs will.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I do think in certain circumstances an AI should not be used in PCT, at least for the first week or 2.

My reasoning is, if you have a cycle that is already suppressing estrogen, total estrogen would be very low as you enter into PCT. I see no added benefit of lowering further. As there are many issues that can arise when estrogen is too low.

.

I think there's a typo in here. What cycle suppresses estrogen? An all DHT-based cycle, with added AIs? Theoretically, that's possible, but who runs that kind of cycle?

[Property of Steroid.com]

No.....But I think as a theory perhaps it is worth discussing. Just because something doesn't have any studies doesn't mean that one cannot develop a theory, based upon ones knowledge of how HCG works....

Right, and that's fine. But why do his clients say that their HPTA was never recovered, and nobody can quantify that it did something for them? Isn't it time to boot the theory?

Also...it's not swale's theory...it was Duchaine's theory in the 80's...Swale just repeated it and changed it a bit.

[Giants11]

I think there's a typo in here. What cycle suppresses estrogen? An all DHT-based cycle, with added AIs? Theoretically, that's possible, but who runs that kind of cycle?

No typo....Many user's run Letro/Arimidex...Granted you are not eliminating all estrogen but you could have very low estrogen during your cycle. And you are right, throw in a DHT derivitive liek Masteron and I suppose that could suppress estrogen even further.

Or would you think that no matter the AI used on cycle, no one could lower estrogen "that" far?

[vitor]

I do think in certain circumstances an AI should not be used in PCT, at least for the first week or 2.

My reasoning is, if you have a cycle that is already suppressing estrogen, total estrogen would be very low as you enter into PCT. I see no added benefit of lowering further. As there are many issues that can arise when estrogen is too low.

I am not making a point for Swale's statement, rather I am throwing out another point that we can discuss.

I have actually had BW twice off cycle when using letro after months(1 mg a/day). And my total estrogen levels where only lowered roughly 65% both times, that was with no AAS. T-levels had gone up from mid 600(650 something) to about 1000ng/dl.

I asked my doc if E-levels was to low for health concerns, he said(for men) it will be impossible for an AI to lower estrogen levels to a point where it could cause real harm...(the only side I got was lowered libido).

The HPTA seems to decide how much tetosterone to produce according to what the E-levels are, if everything else function properly.

[Giants11]

Right, and that's fine. But why do his clients say that their HPTA was never recovered, and nobody can quantify that it did something for them? Isn't it time to boot the theory?

Also...it's not swale's theory...it was Duchaine's theory in the 80's...Swale just repeated it and changed it a bit.

So let me ask you this.

What would you say the difference between the two below are:

The guy shutdown for 8 weeks

Vs.

The guy shutdown for 8 months.

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the 8 month person will have a harder time recovering than the 8 week person. Providing that they have access to the same PCT drugs.

[Giants11]

I have actually had BW twice off cycle when using letro after months(1 mg a/day). And my total estrogen levels where only lowered roughly 65% both times, that was with no AAS. T-levels had gone up from mid 600(650 something) to about 1000ng/dl.

I asked my doc if E-levels was to low for health concerns, he said(for men) it will be impossible for an AI to lower estrogen levels to a point where it could cause real harm...(the only side I got was lowered libido).

Ahhh that is excellent info. What were your gains like using Letro as a stand alone?

[Property of Steroid.com]

No typo....Many user's run Letro/Arimidex...Granted you are not eliminating all estrogen but you could have very low estrogen during your cycle. And you are right, throw in a DHT derivitive liek Masteron and I suppose that could suppress estrogen even further.

Or would you think that no matter the AI used on cycle, no one could lower estrogen "that" far?

But at what point during PCT would lowering part of the negative feedback look be counterproductive?

[Kratos]

DHT's do not eliminatye estrogen, only their action at the receptor. DHT's would inhibit the htpa via being an androgen. Regardless of the estogen level on cycle you still would need the pct the overstimulate the htpa to allow it to return to normal.

[Giants11]

But at what point during PCT would lowering part of the negative feedback look be counterproductive?

To the point where libido is shot, lipids screwed up, joints hurt etc....My thinking was that if one were on cycle and estrogen was already low and then you go into PCT and basically totally kill estrogen that would not be such a great thing due to the reasons above.

but from Vitor's post is seems that Estrogen cannot really get that low.

[Giants11]

DHT's do not eliminatye estrogen, only their action at the receptor. DHT's would inhibit the htpa via being an androgen. Regardless of the estogen level on cycle you still would need the pct the overstimulate the htpa to allow it to return to normal.

I believe Masteron might actually inhibit aromatase as well.

[vitor]

Ahhh that is excellent info. What were your gains like using Letro as a stand alone?

I did feel a diffrence, I even had some mild strenght increase(which I havent had for a few years between cycles). I held on to my lbm gains easier to.

Imho its only in woman(breast cancer) that letro might make E-levels undectable.

[Swifto]

So let me ask you this.

What would you say the difference between the two below are:

The guy shutdown for 8 weeks

Vs.

The guy shutdown for 8 months.

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the 8 month person will have a harder time recovering than the 8 week person. Providing that they have access to the same PCT drugs.

Yes. From real world experience. Marcus always used to state short-burst cycles were easier to recover from, than longer (8+ weeks) and he cycled using both techniques.

User's also find it hard to recover from longer cycles. I think Tai cycled for a long peroid and adjusted his PCT protocol (made it longer) to suit.

I think the difference is whether the leydig cells are shot or not. If they've had it, your not going to produce testosterone naturally and need to look for alternate methods, ie TRT.

But if we experience secondary hypogonadism (inhibiton at the hypothalamus) too, does the body somehow know how long we've been shutdown for? What we really want to know is, does the body find it harder to produce GnRH after longer cycles (months/years)? Or can this simply be overcome by using SERM's/AI's?

[10nispro]

All this information is taxing on the brain, but, at the same time shows the intelligence of those here. My questions is if one doesn't follow a good pct, I haven't cycled but know it's very important to do one(Pct), or just doesn't do one, will his htpa ever return to normal?

Kratos stated one needs a pct to overstimulate the htpa to allow it to return back to normal.

[Giants11]

Yes. From real world experience. Marcus always used to state short-burst cycles were easier to recover from, than longer (8+ weeks) and he cycled using both techniques.

User's also find it hard to recover from longer cycles. I think Tai cycled for a long peroid and adjusted his PCT protocol (made it longer) to suit.

I think the difference is whether the leydig cells are shot or not. If they've had it, your not going to produce testosterone naturally and need to look for alternate methods, ie TRT.

But if we experience secondary hypogonadism (inhibiton at the hypothalamus) too, does the body somehow know how long we've been shutdown for? What we really want to know is, does the body find it harder to produce GnRH after longer cycles (months/years)? Or can this simply be overcome by using SERM's/AI's?

Exactly, just because some people have found it harder doesn't mean that much to me. Don't get me wrong, I respect the hell out of their opinoins, but perhaps they could have done a better PCT, used newer drugs available etc....Many variables, I'm just not going to make a blanket statement just yet as everyone is different.

But you are right, if we know what happens to leydig cells during those two time periods, then perhaps we can develop a solid theory.

[Property of Steroid.com]

To the point where libido is shot, lipids screwed up, joints hurt etc....My thinking was that if one were on cycle and estrogen was already low and then you go into PCT and basically totally kill estrogen that would not be such a great thing due to the reasons above.

but from Vitor's post is seems that Estrogen cannot really get that low.

But that's not what swale said. He said anyone who used an AI for raising test is wrong. And we can think of permutations when that's true, but not "anyone" for sure.

[Swifto]

All this information is taxing on the brain, but, at the same time shows the intelligence of those here. My questions is if one doesn't follow a good pct, I haven't cycled but know it's very important to do one(Pct), or just doesn't do one, will his htpa ever return to normal?

Kratos stated one needs a pct to overstimulate the htpa to allow it to return back to normal.

In most cases the body will restore natural testosterone production, yes. But this often takes time and low testosterone levels causes problems. Low labido, loss of strength/mass. Something we dont want post cycle.

So we take compounds to help our body restore its natural testosterone after using androgens, that either inhibit/shutdown the bodies own testosterone supply.

[Giants11]

All this information is taxing on the brain, but, at the same time shows the intelligence of those here. My questions is if one doesn't follow a good pct, I haven't cycled but know it's very important to do one(Pct), or just doesn't do one, will his htpa ever return to normal?

Kratos stated one needs a pct to overstimulate the htpa to allow it to return back to normal.

I believe that ***ends on how old you are etc...other factors as well.

I know a ton of people that never have done proper PCT, back in the day not too many people even knew that PCT was. They are all fine, big and to my knowledge their HTPA was finally restored.

[Giants11]

But that's not what swale said. He said anyone who used an AI for raising test is wrong. And we can think of permutations when that's true, but not "anyone" for sure.

Agreed, I wasn't talking about what Swale said, rather branching off and asking my own question.

[Titleist]

All this information is taxing on the brain, but, at the same time shows the intelligence of those here. My questions is if one doesn't follow a good pct, I haven't cycled but know it's very important to do one(Pct), or just doesn't do one, will his htpa ever return to normal?

Kratos stated one needs a pct to overstimulate the htpa to allow it to return back to normal.

PCT is necessary for several things, mainly bringing hormone levels back to normal ranges(which helps to maintain gains).

However I have known two friends that didn't run a PCT, and it was definitely harder for their HPTA to recover, and it took longer, but bloodwork 6 months later showed everything was normal. However, they didn't keep their gains and suffered from libido issues.

[Kratos]

Giants11 you may be right about masteron inhibiting the aromatase enzyme. DHT itself and metabolites do, but it has not been proven that I know of DHT deratives inhibit the enzyme. It may, the logic is good but irrelivent, if it acts on the receptor durring cycle this should be good enough as you wouldn't run a dht durring pct (except maybe proviron). Off topic anyway. To get back to your tread topic I have a strong opinion that prolonged shut down is much more detramental to recovery than short shut down.

[10nispro]

Not sure if asking this question is in context of the subject, but in reading most of the informing threads, STUDIES continue to come up in question. Why aren't enough studies done, with AAS'S, to learn about their short falls on the endocrine system, as well as their positive outcome?

[Giants11]

Giants11 you may be right about masteron inhibiting the aromatase enzyme. DHT itself and metabolites do, but it has not been proven that I know of DHT deratives inhibit the enzyme. It may, the logic is good but irrelivent, if it acts on the receptor durring cycle this should be good enough as you wouldn't run a dht durring pct (except maybe proviron). Off topic anyway. To get back to your tread topic I have a strong opinion that prolonged shut down is much more detramental to recovery than short shut down.

To get back to your tread topic I have a strong opinion that prolonged shut down is much more detramental to recovery than short shut down.

Why though? That's basically what I'm getting at. Which is what we all have been trying to discuss. Is it Leydig cells etc....?

Not that you have to have an answer but I'm very curious, because I have run longer cycles and not had any real issue with recovery, but then again I am a bit younger, so.....?

[BG]

I know, lets try and keep it going.

Anyone used low dose HCG thoughout their cycle and get results from it?

Actually Ive been on hrt for over a year know without any hcg. I just recently, say a month or so shut down and just started hcg. Im using a very low dose of 20 iu's ed so far because of acne reasons from last time I used. I can tell I have more semen already, but after sex I still have that empty feeling, like no sensitivity and testes havent grown in size yet. I was thinking if nothing happens within a week of trying a high dose injects for a few days. When I used it for pct I used 1000 ius eod for a total of 10000 ius with fairly good recovery.

[Giants11]

Actually Ive been on hrt for over a year know without any hcg. I just recently, say a month or so shut down and just started hcg. Im using a very low dose of 20 iu's ed so far because of acne reasons from last time I used. I can tell I have more semen already, but after sex I still have that empty feeling, like no sensitivity and testes havent grown in size yet. I was thinking if nothing happens within a week of trying a high dose injects for a few days. When I used it for pct I used 1000 ius eod for a total of 10000 ius with fairly good recovery.

20iu seems very very low considering some of the doses shown in this thread. What else are you taking?

[Kratos]

Why a longer recovery? Tesicular atrophy would be worse and the body's ability to release FSH/LH would also undoubably be diminished. Same idea as trying to recover a muscle after surgery, the longer it has been imobilized the harder it is to get it back.

[Swifto]

Why a longer recovery? Tesicular atrophy would be worse and the body's ability to release FSH/LH would also undoubably be diminished. Same idea as trying to recover a muscle after surgery, the longer it has been imobilized the harder it is to get it back.

I agree. But are there other factors at work, besides leydig cells being unresponsive? Because thats the only conclusion I can come up with, caomparing a 4 year cycler to a 4 week cycler.

If they were to use the same compounds and shutdown GnRH/LH/FSH/T at the same time. Why does the 4 year cycler find it harder to recover?

Other than his/her leydig cells being out of whack?