HTPA Shutdown....

[hackskii]

Thank you very much for posting this.

If one uses HCG during the cycle, what advantage does one have over someone that doesnt? Thats if leydig cells dont become unresponsive, but more sensitive.

You state you use it to kind of jump start the testes, ready for PCT. But what do you mean specifically?

If the leydigs arnt unresponsive and more sensitive to LH, why is HCG needed?

If someone uses HCG during the cycle they will maintain full testicular function.
The benefits of this is when the cycle is done and a SERM is used recovery will be quicker, as the testicles do not have to come back to life.

Think of an arm in a cast, it is not being used (6 weeks), the cast comes off (cycle stops) the arm will take time comming back to normal. Think of your balls like this, if the arm did not atrophy in the cast then once the cast came off the arm would come back quicker.

HCG is an LH analog, it acts just like the pituitary sending the chemical signal LH to the testicles. The nuts do not know the diffrence from LH and the stimulation from LH to the leydig cells and HCG's stimulation of the leydig cells.
It is the same.
So, it makes sense keeping the nuts alive and non atrophied then handing them off to a SERM which will prime the hypothalamus and pituitary to product GnRH, FSH, LH.
Now the nuts are functioning and able to produce testosterone due to the stimulation from the SERMs raising LH and FSH.

Once the nuts go south, they take forever on clomid and nolva to come back to life.
There is a study somewhere on the net where thy put guys on 250 test a week for 6 months.
LH and FSH came back in around 2 weeks or so, the nuts didnt start producting testosterone for 10 weeks and even at week 10 they were below base normal ranges.

So, if the nuts are the sticky part of the equation in recovery would not it make the most sense to have them ready, willing, and able to start production of testosterone so gains are not lost?

You guys seem to demonize estrogen, but estrogen is necessary and should be kept in normal base ranges for good health, even on cycle you block too much estrogen and you will lose some gains, as well as libido.
During a cycle I use very mild doses of an AI just for estrogen management.

The statements lower estrogen = raise testosterone means nothing in regards to lean muscle gains.
You do know that lowering estrogen also lowers IGF-1 right?
The knife cuts both ways here, everything in moderation.

[Swifto]

If someone uses HCG during the cycle they will maintain full testicular function.
The benefits of this is when the cycle is done and a SERM is used recovery will be quicker, as the testicles do not have to come back to life.

Think of an arm in a cast, it is not being used (6 weeks), the cast comes off (cycle stops) the arm will take time comming back to normal. Think of your balls like this, if the arm did not atrophy in the cast then once the cast came off the arm would come back quicker.

HCG is an LH analog, it acts just like the pituitary sending the chemical signal LH to the testicles. The nuts do not know the diffrence from LH and the stimulation from LH to the leydig cells and HCG's stimulation of the leydig cells.
It is the same.
So, it makes sense keeping the nuts alive and non atrophied then handing them off to a SERM which will prime the hypothalamus and pituitary to product GnRH, FSH, LH.
Now the nuts are functioning and able to produce testosterone due to the stimulation from the SERMs raising LH and FSH.

Once the nuts go south, they take forever on clomid and nolva to come back to life.
There is a study somewhere on the net where thy put guys on 250 test a week for 6 months.
LH and FSH came back in around 2 weeks or so, the nuts didnt start producting testosterone for 10 weeks and even at week 10 they were below base normal ranges.

So, if the nuts are the sticky part of the equation in recovery would not it make the most sense to have them ready, willing, and able to start production of testosterone so gains are not lost?

You guys seem to demonize estrogen, but estrogen is necessary and should be kept in normal base ranges for good health, even on cycle you block too much estrogen and you will lose some gains, as well as libido.
During a cycle I use very mild doses of an AI just for estrogen management.

The statements lower estrogen = raise testosterone means nothing in regards to lean muscle gains.
You do know that lowering estrogen also lowers IGF-1 right?
The knife cuts both ways here, everything in moderation.

Exactly. This is also what Swale said.

This would suggest the leydig cells are still responsive as their stimulated from the HCG, mimicing LH.

Which is an advantage leading to PCT, which is what I've been argueing all along.

Yet a certain member wants scientific proof, studies, this, that...

But your also saying the leydigs become MORE responsive when their not stimulated. Then why is PCT harder to somone cycling 2 years, than someone cycling 2 months using the same compounds? It doesnt make sense.

Thanks for your responses by the way. Their appreciated.

[vitor]

But your also saying the leydigs become MORE responsive when their not stimulated. Then why is PCT harder to somone cycling 2 years, than someone cycling 2 months using the same compounds? It doesnt make sense.

According to Bill roberts, the problem with recovering from long cycles, might have to do with change in the "clock" that regulates the pulse of LHRH secretion.

[Kratos]

I don’t think using an AI to raise test levels is a good idea.
Coming from an older mans perspective it is the aromatase that seems to be the problem. Older men have a higher amount of fat and primarily belly fat. Belly fat seems to raise aromatase enzyme considerably. This means more estrogen, more estrogen would equal less testosterone (if high) and less testosterone and more estrogen will probably give you more belly fat and the whole thing would be a vicious circle.


Sounds like ass-backword thinking

[Giants11]

I don’t think using an AI to raise test levels is a good idea.
Coming from an older mans perspective it is the aromatase that seems to be the problem. Older men have a higher amount of fat and primarily belly fat. Belly fat seems to raise aromatase enzyme considerably. This means more estrogen, more estrogen would equal less testosterone (if high) and less testosterone and more estrogen will probably give you more belly fat and the whole thing would be a vicious circle.


Sounds like ass-backword thinking

Yeah I didn't get that part either. Lower estrogen, raise Test. That is one of the basic principals of the Negative Feedback loop.

[vitor]

Yeah I didn't get that part either. Lower estrogen, raise Test. That is one of the basic principals of the Negative Feedback loop.

I think what he meant/thought was that older men have more bodyfat(diet is the key here lol), Estrogens aromatazion in fat-cells is the problem, not testosterones aromatazion to Estrogen which an AI is used for.

But he is wrong...

Letro will penetrate aromatazion in fat-cells quite effectively, and from whetever the Estrogen cames from, it will inhibit the hypotalamus in a way that it will produce less LH.

[kfrost06]

Yeah I didn't get that part either. Lower estrogen, raise Test. That is one of the basic principals of the Negative Feedback loop.

Actually he accidentally made a factual statement, clinical test have shone AIs do not work in older men to increase testosterone. It has nothing to do with body fat and everything to do with reduced hypothalamic GnRH stimulus strength.

"Age did not influence the ability of anastrozole to ***ress (24-h pooled) estradiol concentrations by 50% (compared with placebo) and elevate mean LH concentrations by 2-fold. Nonetheless, under pharmacologically equivalent estrogen withdrawal, older subjects failed to achieve normal young adult augmentation of total testosterone concentrations or molar testosterone to SHBG ratios"

Short-Term Aromatase-Enzyme Blockade Unmasks Impaired Feedback Adaptations in Luteinizing Hormone and Testosterone Secretion in Older Men
Johannes D. Veldhuis and Ali Iranmanesh

Note: older is defined as 60+ and younger is 25-33

[hackskii]

Ok, older men have more aromitization going on then younger men in general.
That would mean higher estrogen and lower testosterone. Testosterone declines in men along with other hormones.
This changes the testosterone to estrogen ratio for the worse.
So, yes blocking estrogen that is high will yield a more favorable test to estrogen ratio and also higher test levels.

But only one TRT doc that I know of Dr. Shippen treats this form of low testosterone in men.
It can be done pretty effectivly with diet and lifestyle changes.

Lets use soy products for example.
Due to it being a phytoestrogen men that are lean with no estrogen problems would not use soy products.
Men that have more aromatase activity and higher than normal estrogen should use soy as it acts as a very mild estrogen similar to a SERM.

My point is this.
Using an AI for the sake of raising testosterone levels in a man with normal base levels of estrogen and testosterone is just stupid.
You will not get any more gains than leaving estrogen alone.
Estrogen has some envolvement in gains too.
Dropping estrogen at the risk of compromising lipid profiles and bone loss in the attempt for some gains wont happen.

[Giants11]

HRT.................That's all I can say,

Good post.

[Serotonin]

I'm almost certain estrogen and testosterone serve the same role in bone density, but clearly in men it is the testosterone that plays the larger role. Unless of course you just meant in older males, kind of like, taking what you can get to keep bone density.

[vitor]

hackscii-When I was using letro as a stand-alone between cycles, my IGF levels doubled(according to BW).

"Lower estrogen=raise testosterone means nothing in regards to lean muscle gains"...Please explain?

Isnt testosterone anabolic?
Wont higher levels of testosterone be more anabolic than lower levels?

And how could I(and several others) make gains between cycles when I was using letro as a stand-alone, if normal levels of estrogen is needed for muscle grow

[plzr8]

hackscii-When I was using letro as a stand-alone between cycles, my IGF levels doubled(according to BW).

"Lower estrogen=raise testosterone means nothing in regards to lean muscle gains"...Please explain?

Isnt testosterone anabolic?
Wont higher levels of testosterone be more anabolic than lower levels?

And how could I(and several others) make gains between cycles when I was using letro as a stand-alone, if normal levels of estrogen is needed for muscle grow

vitor...curious how you combatted sides (such as libido issues) when running letro as a standalone...did you incoporate a low dose proviron or anything of that nature?

[hackskii]

hackscii-When I was using letro as a stand-alone between cycles, my IGF levels doubled(according to BW).

"Lower estrogen=raise testosterone means nothing in regards to lean muscle gains"...Please explain?

Isnt testosterone anabolic?
Wont higher levels of testosterone be more anabolic than lower levels?

And how could I(and several others) make gains between cycles when I was using letro as a stand-alone, if normal levels of estrogen is needed for muscle grow

Of course testosterone is anabolic just like cortisol is catabolic.
Dude estrogen is critical for a healthy mind, De-pression can result in lowering estrogen too low among a ton of other things.

You suggested your IGF-1 doubled, was that doubled above base levels or when?
Aromatase inhibitors lower IGF-1 and so does nolva.

As far as your gains being made between cycles could be a varying degree of factors like, your gear had long acting esters and even up to 6 weeks later deconate and undeconate esters still will be releasing gear into your system.
You probably thought that the gear was out of your system and it still was in your system.

Your gear might have been bogus and the gains came from letro lowering above base values of estrogen.

You are not any near your genetic potential and jumped into a cycle when you would have made great gains without gear due to new muscle growth and not at your genetic potential.

Who knows, using peptides during PCT can cause gains outside of a cycle, more food intake can cause anabolism.
Water loss due to aromitization and looking leaner might be happening.

If you are making gains on letro then why cycle steroids

I made gains during PCT but was on IGF-1LR3 too.


Getting back to the HCG issue:
I am sure you are well aware of the recent study where 250 EOD IU of hCG inducted Tosterone production within 7 percent of baseline in HPTA supressed adult males. This study tells me all I need to know.

[Swifto]

Of course testosterone is anabolic just like cortisol is catabolic.
Dude estrogen is critical for a healthy mind, De-pression can result in lowering estrogen too low among a ton of other things.

You suggested your IGF-1 doubled, was that doubled above base levels or when?
Aromatase inhibitors lower IGF-1 and so does nolva.

As far as your gains being made between cycles could be a varying degree of factors like, your gear had long acting esters and even up to 6 weeks later deconate and undeconate esters still will be releasing gear into your system.
You probably thought that the gear was out of your system and it still was in your system.

Your gear might have been bogus and the gains came from letro lowering above base values of estrogen.

You are not any near your genetic potential and jumped into a cycle when you would have made great gains without gear due to new muscle growth and not at your genetic potential.

Who knows, using peptides during PCT can cause gains outside of a cycle, more food intake can cause anabolism.
Water loss due to aromitization and looking leaner might be happening.

If you are making gains on letro then why cycle steroids

I made gains during PCT but was on IGF-1LR3 too.


Getting back to the HCG issue:
I am sure you are well aware of the recent study where 250 EOD IU of hCG inducted Tosterone production within 7 percent of baseline in HPTA supressed adult males. This study tells me all I need to know.

Is that suppressed from androgens?

Also, what exactly does ITT (intrtesticular testosterone) do?

[hackskii]

Is that suppressed from androgens?

Also, what exactly does ITT (intrtesticular testosterone) do?

HCG maintains ITT in normal men with testosterone induced Gonadotropin Suppression.
It is needed for spermatogenesis, like fertilizer

I am not sure what you are asking on supression from androgens.....

[Serotonin]

Which kind of surprises me... because I dont' hear much concern over it on the forums but that was always my only concern about using gear. Don't want my kids to not swim.

In the 80's there was a decent amount of research done on progestins similar to nandrolone and such that induced azoospermia in men. This was thought be useful for male birth control but then you have to do HRT and all that... it ended up causing too many sides in men when they came off.

[Swifto]

HCG maintains ITT in normal men with testosterone induced Gonadotropin Suppression.
It is needed for spermatogenesis, like fertilizer

I am not sure what you are asking on supression from androgens.....

You stated you had a study where HCG maintained testosterone by 7% or something when suppressed/shutdown. I asked if the suppression was caused by androgens and nothing else?

Could you post the study too. It would be cool to see it.

[hackskii]

I think we got off track here somewhat.

We are talking about recovery here and how to bring the HPTA back online as soon as possible.

There are other factors here that have not even been addressed in recovery.
But a snip from Swale on the benefits of the use of HCG:
But there’s another metabolic reason to employ this protocol. The P450 Side Chain Cleavage enzyme, which converts CHOL into pregnenolone at the initiation of all three metabolic pathways CHOL serves as precursor (the sex hormones, glucocorticoids and mineralcorticoids), is actively stimulated, or ***ressed, by LH concentrations. It is intuitively consistent that during conditions of lowered testosterone levels, commensurate increases in LH production would serve to stimulate this conversion from CHOL into these pathways, thereby feeding more raw material for increased hormone production. And vice versa. Thus the addition of HCG (which also stimulates the P450scc enzyme) helps restore a more natural balance of the hormones within this pathway in patients who are entirely, or even partially, HPTA-suppressed.


One of the other problems with recovery during shutdown is excessive Cortisol and adrenal burnout.

[hackskii]

Leydig cells are more responsive to LH when LH has been absent for a while. This like using an AI making the estrogen receptors more responsive once the AI has stopped and estrogen rebounding can occur.

What is really going on here is that the leydig cells are more repsonsive in the absense of LH but the leydig cells are also not very efficient or lazy if you will in the production of testosterone.
Once they have atrophied they need time to recover to manufacture testosterone.
This is why HCG is used during to maintain full testicular function, not to keep them more responsive. They maybe more responsive to produce testosterone but LH is mearly the signal to the nuts to go to work.
Atrophied nuts are lazy nuts, they are not very efficent at going to work.

So, the nuts are the sticky part of recovery in regards to the HPTA.

In one study I have seen cited countless times (1), normal men were given a fairly light 12 week cycle of a combo of testosterone ( 150 mg/wk), nadrolone (150 mg/wk),Methandrostenolone (15 mg/day), winstrol (5 mg/day). Baseline LH was 6.8 U/L. It fell to a nadir of 4.1 U/L. One month after quitting it had risen to 5.2 U/L. However, 12 weeks after the cycle testosterone was still ***ressed (14nmol/l vs. a baseline of 21.8 nmol/L), but LH had risen above baseline to 8.0 U/L.


(1) Am J Sports Med 1987 Jul-Aug;15(4):357-61

[vitor]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

[goose]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

Good post.....

[Swifto]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

I've also seen this suggested by other members. And even an Endo at M&M as a form of therapy, before TRT.

[x_moe]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

yes a study showed that letro can raise igf level by 25%, but it also said that most of other anti-e's either had no effect on the igf or decreased its level by 20% and more. From what they tested letro was the only one that raised the igf levels.

[hackskii]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

I understand we are all diffrent and one size does not fit all.
Your friend and you are both using the litro for diffrent reasons and could very well be like comparing apples to oranges here/
If your friend is being treated with an AI to raise testosterone, he probably suffers from high estrogen, and his T to E ratio is out of whack.

IF one uses an AI during a cycle (I do) once you come off your levels wont be through the roof like your buddy's were in regards to estrogen.
Just taking an AI for the hell of it in thinking it will raise your test levels 3 times like your friends probably wont happen.
Why because his test levels were low and his E2 was probably very high.
The only mechanism the body has to lower estrogen is to lower testosterone, this is where estrogen's supression effect comes from.
When you take testosterone the body trys to maintain homeostasis and tries to raise estrogen to try to maintain a T to E ratio.

I am not gyno prone, but if the ratio of E to T is too high gyno can happen even though my T levels can be elivated.
Estrogen is probably 200 times more supressive than testosterone, but if you are below base values blocking estrogen wont necessarly raise test levels as high as you guys think.

Hell, low fat diets will lower testosterone levels, so will low cholesterol diets, hell so will a zinc defficency. But with that said eating a high fat diet that is high in cholesterol and zinc wont necessarily raise test levels above base values either.

Ok, I have a question here.
Do you guys use HCG during a cycle or for PCT or anytime?
What is your guys common protocol for recovery of the HPTA?

[vitor]

Ok, I have a question here.
Do you guys use HCG during a cycle or for PCT or anytime?
What is your guys common protocol for recovery of the HPTA?

I cant talk from expirience because I dont use HCG,
but I would think if one uses HCG, it should be done on cycle, not after...

Simply b/c HCG will raise estrogen levels aswell as androgen levels, which can inhibit recovery in PCT.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Simply b/c HCG will raise estrogen levels aswell as androgen levels, which can inhibit recovery in PCT.

I don't know if this is correct.

Look up the estrogen response to HCG in already suppressed men. Look it up in men using androgens, vs. not using, and men who aren't suppressed. Look it up in athletes. The response is a bit different in all those cases.

[hackskii]

I know it was said that testicle size means nothing for test levels.

BUT, when mine are the size of almonds without the shell I can assure they are not producing much.
How do I know?
I had blood work drawn and had the test levels of a woman.
At this point I bet estrogen was low too and I have to look at my BW again to confirm, but adding in a AI would not do much in comparrison to HCG at this point.

[Swifto]

Hackskii,

whats your reply to post #157?

[Serotonin]

No, Roberts PCT still works rather well. Ultimately each person responds to stuff differently, so I would say that guys need to just be dynamic in their PCT and monitor how they respond to each compound they use.

Personally, I plan on using HCG throughout my next cycle.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Let me add this into the mix, ok? When you use HCG during a cycle (in the presence of androgens), testosterone will spike, as will estrogen. When you use it after a cycle (but still suppressed from androgen use), Testosterone will go up but Estrogen will not.

Seems like I'd rather do it after a cycle....to get a spike in test but not necessarily estrogen.

[hackskii]

I cant talk from expirience because I dont use HCG,
but I would think if one uses HCG, it should be done on cycle, not after...

Simply b/c HCG will raise estrogen levels aswell as androgen levels, which can inhibit recovery in PCT.

Yes it will raise estrogen as well as androgens but HCG aromitizes very heavily.
But if the nuts are south then adding in HCG will not hinder recovery during PCT as at this point even if the pituitary is firing FSH and LH the testicles wont respond.
So, the order of things is getting the nuts online then the hypothalamus and pituitary, doing it backwards is counter productive.
When we talk of recovery it is kind of two diffrent things, the nuts and the glands, nuts come online first then the glands.
So in that respect recovery is not compromised as the pituitary is already shutdown but so are the nuts.

Let me add this into the mix, ok? When you use HCG during a cycle (in the presence of androgens), testosterone will spike, as will estrogen. When you use it after a cycle (but still suppressed from androgen use), Testosterone will go up but Estrogen will not.

Seems like I'd rather do it after a cycle....to get a spike in test but not necessarily estrogen.

It will spike estrogen alot. During one PCT of mine I shot 1,000iu of HCG and the very next day I got gyno symptoms and I never have ever gotten gyno from anything but started with HCG. I took some nolva and proviron and next day was cool.
So, yah it will spike both estrogen and testosterone and it is the estrogen that is by far the most supressive and is associated with desentization of the leydig cells with continued use of HCG.

[Swifto]

Let me add this into the mix, ok? When you use HCG during a cycle (in the presence of androgens), testosterone will spike, as will estrogen. When you use it after a cycle (but still suppressed from androgen use), Testosterone will go up but Estrogen will not.

Seems like I'd rather do it after a cycle....to get a spike in test but not necessarily estrogen.

Use an AI then.

Why wont estrogen spike too?

[hackskii]

Use an AI then.

Why wont estrogen spike too?

It does and very high with the use of HCG.
Again the only signs of gyno I ever had in my life came from HCG and that was Post Cycle.

I have another buddy that got gyno from HCG and he is not gyno prone either.

Taking an AI during HCG use is a great idea.

[Swifto]

It does and very high with the use of HCG.
Again the only signs of gyno I ever had in my life came from HCG and that was Post Cycle.

I have another buddy that got gyno from HCG and he is not gyno prone either.

Taking an AI during HCG use is a great idea.

An AI would work if it aromotases, via the aromotase enzyme pathway.

Anyone know if it converts to estrogen via a different pathway?

Maybe this is what Anthony is referring too...?

[vitor]

Anyone know if it converts to estrogen via a different pathway?

Maybe this is what Anthony is referring too...?

Not that I have heard of, or read.

But even if it did, it should be a non issue if you use an serm. It will block estrogen in the hypotalamus/pituitary and breast tisssue, wherever the estrogen comes from...

[Property of Steroid.com]

Use an AI then.

Why wont estrogen spike too?

I forget, and don't have time to look up the study right now (busy with PyroGenX stuff), but as I recall, during AAS induced Hypogonadism, post cycle HCG did not cause an increase in estro, only test...something to do with(maybe, if I remember) C21-steroid side-chain splitting. I could be wrong about the reason, but I'm reasonably sure that the bare bones of this is correct, from memory.

Check on pubmed, the study is there somewhere I think.

Sorry, but I'm super busy today...

[hackskii]

I forget, and don't have time to look up the study right now (busy with PyroGenX stuff), but as I recall, during AAS induced Hypogonadism, post cycle HCG did not cause an increase in estro, only test...something to do with(maybe, if I remember) C21-steroid side-chain splitting. I could be wrong about the reason, but I'm reasonably sure that the bare bones of this is correct, from memory.

Check on pubmed, the study is there somewhere I think.

Sorry, but I'm super busy today...

Sorry, I had gyno symptoms from HCG use post cycle and I know my androgens were low.
But in all fairness it could be the T to E ratio too as even if estrogen is in normal base ranges it is possible to get gyno with low test levels.

[vitor]

hackskii-I never suffer testicle athrophy on cycle whatever I use. So how would I know when/if my nuts have gone south or not?

[hackskii]

hackskii-I never suffer testicle athrophy on cycle whatever I use. So how would I know when/if my nuts have gone south or not?

After your cycle get some blood work done.

I can tell pretty easy as during a cycle my libido starts cranking up big time, my face gets greesy and my voice changes. I can feel just one shot of testosterone.
When I come off I can tell when to start my PCT.
Morning wood is always a good sign of test recovery.
Loss of libido is always a good sign of low testosterone levels.

The size of your balls are no indication of how much or how little test you are producing but in your case I would trade your big balls for my raisins any day as it takes about 2 weeks to get the size back using HCG for me.
I am also an identical twin so I know exactally how big my balls are supposed to be....(dont ask why )

Last cycle before the one I am on now was sust.
Doing the math I started my PCT 3 weeks after last jab of 500mg.
It was too early, I knew I started too early and could still feel the effects of the test.
I should have waited 4 weeks.

Starting PCT is critical too, there is a window of oppertunity, start too early and the anti-estrogens or SERM's wont be effective, then when you stop you might not be fully recovered.

Start too late would just result in some loss of gains but for the most part wont hurt you unelss you crash.

For the guys that are on along time using big amounts, I totally recommend tapering using testosterone.
Seems that androgen withdrawl can happen and crashing is common for long term use.
At this point sudden stop and starting PCT still seems to crash some guys.

Switching to shorter acting gears at the end of the cycle seems a good approach too.
Deca for instance can leave some guys with low test levels for up to a year.
I know it happened to me and my identical twin brother and he has the blood work to prove it.
His nuts went south 3 months after last jab.
I will never use deca but that is another story all together.

HCG for me is critical.
Never take aspirin with HCG either, it ruins it.
Take it EOD for bringing the nuts back to life as I notice doing it this way is better than ED if recovery is the necessity.
At night works best for me, but depending on dose keeps me awake.
Cant prove it but HGH taken during PCT seems to work better too.
Of course Vitamin E along with that will help (thanks Anthony Roberts).
I do use an AI during the HCG use when recovery is used (twards the end of the cycle).
I also use an AI during the cycle just to keep estrogen from being too high but not enough to lower it below base.

Nolva by itself even with aromasin is worthless to me.
Clomid gives me morning wood where as nolva and aromasin dont.
Clomid and nolva together totally rock.
But after a month of clomid I get some pretty bad tracers.
I am considering trying the next generation SERM's after my supply of clomid and nolva are gone.

[Guardian74]

Hackskii,

But...what if a fellow (ME) can't use clomid because of sides. My vision was shot (blurry, tracers, lack of focus) on as little as 50 mg ed. It took months to come back.

"Deca for instance can leave some guys with low test levels for up to a year."

Ran Sus & Deca last cycle w/ letro and libido took FOREVER to come back.
So, we have two libido killers (Deca & Letro), and one libido enhancer (Clomid) that I can't use. Easy to remedy, no more use of these chemicals. But, now what? L-dex for an AI? Can it be run through PCT without interfering with the recuperating effects of the HCG?

G74