HTPA Shutdown....

[goose]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

Good post.....

[Swifto]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

I've also seen this suggested by other members. And even an Endo at M&M as a form of therapy, before TRT.

[x_moe]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

yes a study showed that letro can raise igf level by 25%, but it also said that most of other anti-e's either had no effect on the igf or decreased its level by 20% and more. From what they tested letro was the only one that raised the igf levels.

[hackskii]

hackskii-My igf levels doubled from what they where pre-cycle. (If you want to se the exact numbers I can put them up later.)

(I have never had bogus gear, and I use short esters.)

I got the idea of doing this(between cycles) b/c someone I know had an endocrine problem which resulted in low testosterone levels. He was given letro(by hes doc) hes T-levels went 3x up, and IGF increased signifently aswell. He started making greate gains on using nothing but letro, as he had low T-levels to start with.

I understand we are all diffrent and one size does not fit all.
Your friend and you are both using the litro for diffrent reasons and could very well be like comparing apples to oranges here/
If your friend is being treated with an AI to raise testosterone , he probably suffers from high estrogen, and his T to E ratio is out of whack.

IF one uses an AI during a cycle (I do) once you come off your levels wont be through the roof like your buddy's were in regards to estrogen.
Just taking an AI for the hell of it in thinking it will raise your test levels 3 times like your friends probably wont happen.
Why because his test levels were low and his E2 was probably very high.
The only mechanism the body has to lower estrogen is to lower testosterone, this is where estrogen's supression effect comes from.
When you take testosterone the body trys to maintain homeostasis and tries to raise estrogen to try to maintain a T to E ratio.

I am not gyno prone, but if the ratio of E to T is too high gyno can happen even though my T levels can be elivated.
Estrogen is probably 200 times more supressive than testosterone, but if you are below base values blocking estrogen wont necessarly raise test levels as high as you guys think.

Hell, low fat diets will lower testosterone levels , so will low cholesterol diets, hell so will a zinc defficency. But with that said eating a high fat diet that is high in cholesterol and zinc wont necessarily raise test levels above base values either.

Ok, I have a question here.
Do you guys use HCG during a cycle or for PCT or anytime?
What is your guys common protocol for recovery of the HPTA?

[hackskii]

I know it was said that testicle size means nothing for test levels.

BUT, when mine are the size of almonds without the shell I can assure they are not producing much.
How do I know?
I had blood work drawn and had the test levels of a woman.
At this point I bet estrogen was low too and I have to look at my BW again to confirm, but adding in a AI would not do much in comparrison to HCG at this point.

[Swifto]

Hackskii,

whats your reply to post #157?

[hackskii]

Is that suppressed from androgens?

Also, what exactly does ITT (intrtesticular testosterone) do?

HCG maintains ITT in normal men with testosterone induced Gonadotropin Suppression.
It is needed for spermatogenesis, like fertilizer

I am not sure what you are asking on supression from androgens.....

[Serotonin]

Which kind of surprises me... because I dont' hear much concern over it on the forums but that was always my only concern about using gear. Don't want my kids to not swim.

In the 80's there was a decent amount of research done on progestins similar to nandrolone and such that induced azoospermia in men. This was thought be useful for male birth control but then you have to do HRT and all that... it ended up causing too many sides in men when they came off.

[Guardian74]

So, all of this information is very informative, but...
The following post is Bull or no?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=209758

G74

[Serotonin]

No, Roberts PCT still works rather well. Ultimately each person responds to stuff differently, so I would say that guys need to just be dynamic in their PCT and monitor how they respond to each compound they use.

Personally, I plan on using HCG throughout my next cycle.

[vitor]

Ok, I have a question here.
Do you guys use HCG during a cycle or for PCT or anytime?
What is your guys common protocol for recovery of the HPTA?

I cant talk from expirience because I dont use HCG,
but I would think if one uses HCG, it should be done on cycle, not after...

Simply b/c HCG will raise estrogen levels aswell as androgen levels, which can inhibit recovery in PCT.

[Swifto]

HCG maintains ITT in normal men with testosterone induced Gonadotropin Suppression.
It is needed for spermatogenesis, like fertilizer

I am not sure what you are asking on supression from androgens.....

You stated you had a study where HCG maintained testosterone by 7% or something when suppressed/shutdown. I asked if the suppression was caused by androgens and nothing else?

Could you post the study too. It would be cool to see it.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Simply b/c HCG will raise estrogen levels aswell as androgen levels, which can inhibit recovery in PCT.

I don't know if this is correct.

Look up the estrogen response to HCG in already suppressed men. Look it up in men using androgens, vs. not using, and men who aren't suppressed. Look it up in athletes. The response is a bit different in all those cases.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Let me add this into the mix, ok? When you use HCG during a cycle (in the presence of androgens), testosterone will spike, as will estrogen. When you use it after a cycle (but still suppressed from androgen use), Testosterone will go up but Estrogen will not.

Seems like I'd rather do it after a cycle....to get a spike in test but not necessarily estrogen.

[hackskii]

So, all of this information is very informative, but...
The following post is Bull or no?

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=209758

G74

Well, it is very nicely written but I followed that PCT to the letter and failed.
I have my suspicions though as to why.

[hackskii]

I cant talk from expirience because I dont use HCG ,
but I would think if one uses HCG, it should be done on cycle, not after...

Simply b/c HCG will raise estrogen levels aswell as androgen levels, which can inhibit recovery in PCT.

Yes it will raise estrogen as well as androgens but HCG aromitizes very heavily.
But if the nuts are south then adding in HCG will not hinder recovery during PCT as at this point even if the pituitary is firing FSH and LH the testicles wont respond.
So, the order of things is getting the nuts online then the hypothalamus and pituitary, doing it backwards is counter productive.
When we talk of recovery it is kind of two diffrent things, the nuts and the glands, nuts come online first then the glands.
So in that respect recovery is not compromised as the pituitary is already shutdown but so are the nuts.

Let me add this into the mix, ok? When you use HCG during a cycle (in the presence of androgens), testosterone will spike, as will estrogen. When you use it after a cycle (but still suppressed from androgen use), Testosterone will go up but Estrogen will not.

Seems like I'd rather do it after a cycle....to get a spike in test but not necessarily estrogen.

It will spike estrogen alot. During one PCT of mine I shot 1,000iu of HCG and the very next day I got gyno symptoms and I never have ever gotten gyno from anything but started with HCG. I took some nolva and proviron and next day was cool.
So, yah it will spike both estrogen and testosterone and it is the estrogen that is by far the most supressive and is associated with desentization of the leydig cells with continued use of HCG.

[Swifto]

Let me add this into the mix, ok? When you use HCG during a cycle (in the presence of androgens), testosterone will spike, as will estrogen. When you use it after a cycle (but still suppressed from androgen use), Testosterone will go up but Estrogen will not.

Seems like I'd rather do it after a cycle....to get a spike in test but not necessarily estrogen.

Use an AI then.

Why wont estrogen spike too?

[hackskii]

Use an AI then.

Why wont estrogen spike too?

It does and very high with the use of HCG .
Again the only signs of gyno I ever had in my life came from HCG and that was Post Cycle.

I have another buddy that got gyno from HCG and he is not gyno prone either.

Taking an AI during HCG use is a great idea.

[Swifto]

It does and very high with the use of HCG .
Again the only signs of gyno I ever had in my life came from HCG and that was Post Cycle.

I have another buddy that got gyno from HCG and he is not gyno prone either.

Taking an AI during HCG use is a great idea.

An AI would work if it aromotases, via the aromotase enzyme pathway.

Anyone know if it converts to estrogen via a different pathway?

Maybe this is what Anthony is referring too...?

[vitor]

Anyone know if it converts to estrogen via a different pathway?

Maybe this is what Anthony is referring too...?

Not that I have heard of, or read.

But even if it did, it should be a non issue if you use an serm. It will block estrogen in the hypotalamus/pituitary and breast tisssue, wherever the estrogen comes from...

[vitor]

hackskii-I never suffer testicle athrophy on cycle whatever I use. So how would I know when/if my nuts have gone south or not?

[hackskii]

hackskii-I never suffer testicle athrophy on cycle whatever I use. So how would I know when/if my nuts have gone south or not?

After your cycle get some blood work done.

I can tell pretty easy as during a cycle my libido starts cranking up big time, my face gets greesy and my voice changes. I can feel just one shot of testosterone .
When I come off I can tell when to start my PCT.
Morning wood is always a good sign of test recovery.
Loss of libido is always a good sign of low testosterone levels .

The size of your balls are no indication of how much or how little test you are producing but in your case I would trade your big balls for my raisins any day as it takes about 2 weeks to get the size back using HCG for me.
I am also an identical twin so I know exactally how big my balls are supposed to be....(dont ask why )

Last cycle before the one I am on now was sust.
Doing the math I started my PCT 3 weeks after last jab of 500mg.
It was too early, I knew I started too early and could still feel the effects of the test.
I should have waited 4 weeks.

Starting PCT is critical too, there is a window of oppertunity, start too early and the anti-estrogens or SERM's wont be effective, then when you stop you might not be fully recovered.

Start too late would just result in some loss of gains but for the most part wont hurt you unelss you crash.

For the guys that are on along time using big amounts, I totally recommend tapering using testosterone.
Seems that androgen withdrawl can happen and crashing is common for long term use.
At this point sudden stop and starting PCT still seems to crash some guys.

Switching to shorter acting gears at the end of the cycle seems a good approach too.
Deca for instance can leave some guys with low test levels for up to a year.
I know it happened to me and my identical twin brother and he has the blood work to prove it.
His nuts went south 3 months after last jab.
I will never use deca but that is another story all together.

HCG for me is critical.
Never take aspirin with HCG either, it ruins it.
Take it EOD for bringing the nuts back to life as I notice doing it this way is better than ED if recovery is the necessity.
At night works best for me, but depending on dose keeps me awake.
Cant prove it but HGH taken during PCT seems to work better too.
Of course Vitamin E along with that will help (thanks Anthony Roberts).
I do use an AI during the HCG use when recovery is used (twards the end of the cycle).
I also use an AI during the cycle just to keep estrogen from being too high but not enough to lower it below base.

Nolva by itself even with aromasin is worthless to me.
Clomid gives me morning wood where as nolva and aromasin dont.
Clomid and nolva together totally rock.
But after a month of clomid I get some pretty bad tracers.
I am considering trying the next generation SERM's after my supply of clomid and nolva are gone.

[Guardian74]

Hackskii,

But...what if a fellow (ME) can't use clomid because of sides. My vision was shot (blurry, tracers, lack of focus) on as little as 50 mg ed. It took months to come back.

"Deca for instance can leave some guys with low test levels for up to a year."

Ran Sus & Deca last cycle w/ letro and libido took FOREVER to come back.
So, we have two libido killers (Deca & Letro), and one libido enhancer (Clomid) that I can't use. Easy to remedy, no more use of these chemicals. But, now what? L-dex for an AI? Can it be run through PCT without interfering with the recuperating effects of the HCG ?

G74

[Serotonin]

I have a question to kind of throw in the mix here... In males, testosterone isn't kept in the same form when it reaches some of its target cells. For example 5-alpha-reductase turns it into DHT in the prostate, but what kind of messes me up is how testosterone is converted to estrogen in men when it enters the brain. This pathway is again taken care of by aromatase... so that seems like a big deal. If you're taking an AI does it cross the blood brain barrier and inhibit the test picked up by brain cells? That could have a rather large pathophysiological impact I'm guessing if testosterone couldn't be made into estrogen to act on the pathways in which it normally would?

Anyone have feedback?

[hackskii]

Hackskii,

But...what if a fellow (ME) can't use clomid because of sides. My vision was shot (blurry, tracers, lack of focus) on as little as 50 mg ed. It took months to come back.

"Deca for instance can leave some guys with low test levels for up to a year."

Ran Sus & Deca last cycle w/ letro and libido took FOREVER to come back.
So, we have two libido killers (Deca & Letro), and one libido enhancer (Clomid) that I can't use. Easy to remedy, no more use of these chemicals. But, now what? L-dex for an AI? Can it be run through PCT without interfering with the recuperating effects of the HCG ?

G74

Why not try the next generation SERM's?
Check out Fareston-Toremifene Citrate: http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Fa...20Citrate.html
I have not tried although I do hear it sounds very promising.

Oh, leave the deca and long acting gears alone unless you front load them then use shorter acting esters.
Or if you have to use Deca you might want to consider its shorter estered verson of NPP.
EQ is another option but it also has a very long ester in it too (undeconate), but not as supressive as deca I have found.

[hackskii]

I have a question to kind of throw in the mix here... In males, testosterone isn't kept in the same form when it reaches some of its target cells. For example 5-alpha-reductase turns it into DHT in the prostate, but what kind of messes me up is how testosterone is converted to estrogen in men when it enters the brain. This pathway is again taken care of by aromatase... so that seems like a big deal. If you're taking an AI does it cross the blood brain barrier and inhibit the test picked up by brain cells? That could have a rather large pathophysiological impact I'm guessing if testosterone couldn't be made into estrogen to act on the pathways in which it normally would?

Anyone have feedback?

I have no idea and Endocrinology is not my cup of tea.
If I had to guess then an AI would lower total circulating estrogen so all the target cells would be affected. Unlike a SERM where on might act as an agonist for one target cell but an antagonist to another.
Nolva acts like a mild estrogen in the prostate.
Not good as the prostate comes from the same embryonic tissue as the uterus.
Only two things are known to cause uterine cancer, estrogen and tamoxifen (nolvadex ).
Not trying to put a scare in anyone but just posing some idea's here.
I dont think that DHT is the demon of the prostate, IMO.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Use an AI then.

Why wont estrogen spike too?

I forget, and don't have time to look up the study right now (busy with PyroGenX stuff), but as I recall, during AAS induced Hypogonadism, post cycle HCG did not cause an increase in estro, only test...something to do with(maybe, if I remember) C21-steroid side-chain splitting. I could be wrong about the reason, but I'm reasonably sure that the bare bones of this is correct, from memory.

Check on pubmed, the study is there somewhere I think.

Sorry, but I'm super busy today...

[hackskii]

Here is the info on the HGH and recovery I was looking for.
Not diffinitive proof but it could not hurt to run along PCT to avoid catabolism, control cortisol and possibly aid in recovery.

A considerable body ofevidence suggests the existence of a relationship between growth hormone (GH) and the HPTA.[[57]] The effect of GH administration on gonadal function in men has been poorly investigated. In addition, it has been suggested that rGH administration could improve testosterone production induced by CG alone or combined with gonadotropins.[[58]] Patients treated with extra-active GH and chorionic gonadotropin (CG), Carani et al. (1999) [[59]], found a significant increase in testosterone levels when compared with CG treatment alone. These data show that GH treatment displays a clear-cut effect upon Leydig cell function and increases the production of seminal plasma volume in fertile adult males with isolated GH deficiency.


[57] Sheikholislan BM & Stempefel RS. Hereditary isolated somatotropin deficiency: effects of human growth hormone administration. Pediatrics 1972 49 362–374. Paulsen CA, Espeland DH & Michail EE. Effects of HCG , hMG, hLH and GH administration on testicular function. In Human Testis, pp 547–562. Eds E Rosemberg & CA Paulsen. New York: Plenum Press, 1970. Balducci R, Toscano V, Mangiantini A, Bianchi P, Guglielmi R & Boscherini B. The effect of growth hormone administration on testicular response during gonadotropin therapy in subjects with combined gonadotropin and growth hormone deficiencies. Acta Endocrinologica 1993 128 19–23. Chatelain PG, Sanchez P & Saez JM. Growth hormone and insulin -like growth factor-I treatment increase testicular luteinizing hormone receptors and steroidogenic responsiveness of growth hormone deficient dwarf mice. Endocrinology 1991 128 1857–1862.

[58] See FN54. Balducci R 1993.

[59] Carani C, Granata AR, De Rosa M, Garau C, Zarrilli S, Paesano L, Colao A, Marrama P, Lombardi G. The effect of chronic treatment with GH on gonadal function in men with isolated GH deficiency. Eur J Endocrinol. 1999 Mar;140(3):224-30.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Why not try the next generation SERM's?
Check out Fareston-Toremifene Citrate: http://www.isteroids.com/steroids/Fa...20Citrate.html
I have not tried although I do hear it sounds very promising.
.

I wrote that profile (I wrote them all for I Steroids ). I wrote the profile on Fareston for MesRx too. And you've outlined my problem with it, which I mentioned in both those profiles...it sounds promising, but I don't know too many people who have used it yet, so the jury is still out on it.

[hackskii]

I forget, and don't have time to look up the study right now (busy with PyroGenX stuff), but as I recall, during AAS induced Hypogonadism, post cycle HCG did not cause an increase in estro, only test...something to do with(maybe, if I remember) C21-steroid side-chain splitting. I could be wrong about the reason, but I'm reasonably sure that the bare bones of this is correct, from memory.

Check on pubmed, the study is there somewhere I think.

Sorry, but I'm super busy today...

Sorry, I had gyno symptoms from HCG use post cycle and I know my androgens were low.
But in all fairness it could be the T to E ratio too as even if estrogen is in normal base ranges it is possible to get gyno with low test levels.

[hackskii]

I wrote that profile (I wrote them all for I Steroids). I wrote the profile on Fareston for MesRx too. And you've outlined my problem with it, which I mentioned in both those profiles...it sounds promising, but I don't know too many people who have used it yet, so the jury is still out on it.

Haaaa haaaa, now that is funny, I should have looked up the Author first.
Had a buddy use it and he called it spontanious erections.
I was going to buy it but I have tons of clomid and nolva already and cant justify buying the Fareston till I am all out.
I will give it a go and I notice all meds and what they do to me as I am very sensitive.

[hackskii]

Another option is Raloxifene, although as the other I have never used it nor anyone else for that matter.

For me clomid works the best of any SERM I have tried, but the sides can get pretty crazy.
I had some serious trails on that stuff after a month on, scared the crap out of me as I have heard some of the damage could be perminant.

Might end up a huge blind bodybuilder

[Property of Steroid.com]

Haaaa haaaa, now that is funny, I should have looked up the Author first.
Had a buddy use it and he called it spontanious erections.
I was going to buy it but I have tons of clomid and nolva already and cant justify buying the Fareston till I am all out.
I will give it a go and I notice all meds and what they do to me as I am very sensitive.

There's no author listed for the profiles on Isteroids. I wrote them though, for my buddy Mr.X (who owns the site)

There's no author listed for the ones on 'b0lex's main page, either, but I did most of them, and there's none listed for the ones on steroidsprofiles, but the AAS ones there were done by me also. No author is listed for any of those sites...but I did 'em.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Well, it is very nicely written but I followed that PCT to the letter and failed.
I have my suspicions though as to why.

Why? Remember, many (many!) people here have used my PCT and I can't remember more than 1-2 ever having it not work for them.

Why do you think it didn't work for you?

[hackskii]

Why? Remember, many (many!) people here have used my PCT and I can't remember more than 1-2 ever having it not work for them.

Why do you think it didn't work for you?

Could have been the severity of shutdown as I was put on TRT due to test levels of a woman after some of the cycles.

But I do believe it was due to not having clomid in the mix and nolva does pretty much nothing but clomid and nolva together work very well.
The aromasin did pretty much nothing for recovery but the real problem was severe testicular atorphy.
500iu was just too low to do the job to spark the boys back from the dead.
So, probably more than anything else it was due to not enough stimulation from HCG to get full testicular function.

And with the absense of clomid there was probably not enough stimulation from the pituitary to spark the dead nuts back to life.

What I did was up the HCG to 2500iu EOD (I also find that EOD shots work better for me with HCG).
I added clomid @ 50mg twice a day (100mg total) for 30 days.
Ran nolva 20mg a day for 45 days.

The article was nicely written and on paper it probably works for most, but for me there was not enough HCG and aromasin probably along with the nolva just didnt seem to do the trick.

I never got any morning wood and the testicular atrophy was still there at the end of the PCT (the one you wrote).

I try and use the least amount of meds possible as they all have their own set of side effects but on the clomid I tried backing it off to just 50mg during the PCT and the morning wood went away so I put it back.

I am not sure if you remember me but this had to be about 2 years ago I came accross the article and e-mailed you asking for advice on that protocol, at the time I felt terrible being on TRT (cream) and had no libido and felt like shit. I was looking for hope and I saw that article, at the time I was full of enthusiasm but in the end I got really scared.

Then I bumped in to a Dr. Scally on Messo board and the rest is history. He pretty much gave me that protocol.
At the time I was worried about clomid down regulating the GnRH receptors in the pituitary due to estrogenic properties of clomid but was assured by Scally that this wont be a problem due to the nolva blocking that.
This is another reason I tried your protocol first.

I wrote an article for The Beef magazine (UK) on PCT and the way I did it, and it actually got published (cool).

But again PCT can fail for many reasons and one of them is timing and the use of gear like Deca and very long acting esters.
So, because it didnt work for me does not mean that it does not work for some one else.
I am also older and my responce to LH might be a bit less responsive, but in the end we do what works best for us using our own experiances.

But in the end it is like pieces to a puzzle, I like the idea of the Vitamin E in there and add this to my PCT protocols now (thanks for that).
I am also very interested in Tapering as a method to go off cycle.
There is alot of good information on this and the use of an AI during the taper.
But that is another topic all together.

[frank2738]

u do pct.....bloodwork then shows all your levels to be in the normal range...could u still have an issue in regards to fertility?

[Property of Steroid.com]

Could have been the severity of shutdown as I was put on TRT due to test levels of a woman after some of the cycles.

But I do believe it was due to not having clomid in the mix and nolva does pretty much nothing but clomid and nolva together work very well.
The aromasin did pretty much nothing for recovery but the real problem was severe testicular atorphy.
500iu was just too low to do the job to spark the boys back from the dead.
So, probably more than anything else it was due to not enough stimulation from HCG to get full testicular function.

And with the absense of clomid there was probably not enough stimulation from the pituitary to spark the dead nuts back to life.

What I did was up the HCG to 2500iu EOD (I also find that EOD shots work better for me with HCG).
I added clomid @ 50mg twice a day (100mg total) for 30 days.
Ran nolva 20mg a day for 45 days.

The article was nicely written and on paper it probably works for most, but for me there was not enough HCG and aromasin probably along with the nolva just didnt seem to do the trick.

I never got any morning wood and the testicular atrophy was still there at the end of the PCT (the one you wrote).

I try and use the least amount of meds possible as they all have their own set of side effects but on the clomid I tried backing it off to just 50mg during the PCT and the morning wood went away so I put it back.

I am not sure if you remember me but this had to be about 2 years ago I came accross the article and e-mailed you asking for advice on that protocol, at the time I felt terrible being on TRT (cream) and had no libido and felt like shit. I was looking for hope and I saw that article, at the time I was full of enthusiasm but in the end I got really scared.

Then I bumped in to a Dr. Scally on Messo board and the rest is history. He pretty much gave me that protocol.
At the time I was worried about clomid down regulating the GnRH receptors in the pituitary due to estrogenic properties of clomid but was assured by Scally that this wont be a problem due to the nolva blocking that.
This is another reason I tried your protocol first.

I wrote an article for The Beef magazine (UK) on PCT and the way I did it, and it actually got published (cool).

But again PCT can fail for many reasons and one of them is timing and the use of gear like Deca and very long acting esters.
So, because it didnt work for me does not mean that it does not work for some one else.
I am also older and my responce to LH might be a bit less responsive, but in the end we do what works best for us using our own experiances.

But in the end it is like pieces to a puzzle, I like the idea of the Vitamin E in there and add this to my PCT protocols now (thanks for that).
I am also very interested in Tapering as a method to go off cycle.
There is alot of good information on this and the use of an AI during the taper.
But that is another topic all together.

Admittedly, it's a cookie cutter PCT. There's no real way to write a one-size fits all PCT...but mine works for better than 75% of the people who have tried it, based on what I've read on the boards and from e-mails, so I mean...that's something.

I don't think there's a PCT that will work for 100% of the people, so I tried to put one out there that would work for most people most of the time, which is really all you can hope for, I think.

[Property of Steroid.com]

J Steroid Biochem. 1986 Jul;25(1):109-12.

Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic gonadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes.

Martikainen H, Alén M, Rahkila P, Vihko R.
Serum concentrations of testosterone , 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estradiol and several other unconjugated and sulphated steroids were analyzed before and after a single dose of hCG in 6 power athletes, who had used high doses of testosterone and anabolic steroids for 3 months. The study was carried out 3 weeks after cessation of drug use, but the study subjects were still characterized by hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. The mean concentrations of serum LH and FSH were 2.6 +/- 0.3 and 1.1 +/- 0.03 mIU/ml (mean +/- SEM), respectively, and the concentrations of several precursors and metabolites of testosterone were lower than those before drug use. In contrast, circulating concentrations of steroid sulphates were not decreased, with the exception of dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate. After hCG injection serum testosterone and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone concentrations increased significantly, whereas no increases in estradiol and 17-hydroxyprogesterone concentrations were observed. These results demonstrate that during transient hypogonadotrophism in adult men, the testicular responsiveness to a single injection of hCG is similar to that in prepubertal boys without any sign of steroidogenic lesion at the 17,20-desmolase step. Therefore, the appearance of the possibly estradiol-mediated inhibition at the level of C21-steroid side-chain splitting in testosterone biosynthesis seems to be dependent on priming by gonadotrophins.
PMID: 3747510 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


And that, in a nutshell, is why I favor HCG for PCT instead of on a cycle. You get the test w/o the estrogen. You can even use a ton and not get the estrogen increase.

[hackskii]

u do pct.....bloodwork then shows all your levels to be in the normal range...could u still have an issue in regards to fertility?

Totally, could take months and many at that to get a woman pregnant. Happened to my buddy.
He had normal test levels but a problem with his sperm.

Admittedly, it's a cookie cutter PCT. There's no real way to write a one-size fits all PCT...but mine works for better than 75% of the people who have tried it, based on what I've read on the boards and from e-mails, so I mean...that's something.

I don't think there's a PCT that will work for 100% of the people, so I tried to put one out there that would work for most people most of the time, which is really all you can hope for, I think.

You are correct here in no one size shoe fits all.
But in the rare circumstances in the subjects that are very hard shutdown this needs some address.
Id be willing to bet this happens more than guys are willing to admit due to probably ego problems or guys just going back on cycle to feel normal or good again.

I think with some brainstorming and or shared info the lines of recovery would and could be minimized.
PCT is not one subject that is openly talked about as some of the guys crash so freaking hard they would feel stupid posting the crash.

If I was a hard shutdown type of guy (which I am), I would contact a guy like myself to aid in recovery.
Why I need more HCG and clomid I have no freaking idea.

Again your article is well written and I do appreciate what you wrote, everything helps in the big picture of things.

J Steroid Biochem. 1986 Jul;25(1):109-12.

Testicular responsiveness to human chorionic gonadotrophin during transient hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism induced by androgenic/anabolic steroids in power athletes.

Martikainen H, Alén M, Rahkila P, Vihko R.
Serum concentrations of testosterone , 17-hydroxyprogesterone, estradiol and several other unconjugated and sulphated steroids were analyzed before and after a single dose of hCG in 6 power athletes, who had used high doses of testosterone and anabolic steroids for 3 months. The study was carried out 3 weeks after cessation of drug use, but the study subjects were still characterized by hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism. The mean concentrations of serum LH and FSH were 2.6 +/- 0.3 and 1.1 +/- 0.03 mIU/ml (mean +/- SEM), respectively, and the concentrations of several precursors and metabolites of testosterone were lower than those before drug use. In contrast, circulating concentrations of steroid sulphates were not decreased, with the exception of dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate. After hCG injection serum testosterone and 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone concentrations increased significantly, whereas no increases in estradiol and 17-hydroxyprogesterone concentrations were observed. These results demonstrate that during transient hypogonadotrophism in adult men, the testicular responsiveness to a single injection of hCG is similar to that in prepubertal boys without any sign of steroidogenic lesion at the 17,20-desmolase step. Therefore, the appearance of the possibly estradiol-mediated inhibition at the level of C21-steroid side-chain splitting in testosterone biosynthesis seems to be dependent on priming by gonadotrophins.
PMID: 3747510 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


And that, in a nutshell, is why I favor HCG for PCT instead of on a cycle. You get the test w/o the estrogen. You can even use a ton and not get the estrogen increase.

What was the dose of HCG that was used?
Sorry, I must have missed that one there.
Administration of HCG and its sides is totally dose dependant.
No lie, I got gyno issues with 1,000iu of HCG post cycle.

My twin was at his wits end and had one of the worst crashes I ever saw and within just one day after HCG he was feeling almost normal.
Suicidal to normal in just one day with HCG.

I think there are good arguments for and against during and pre-PCT for HCG.
I can share those arguments with you if you like from first hand experiances.
Damn, I am doing the pre-PCT phase of HCG and recovery right now.

But all bets aside there are more factors here than LH and test production during PCT.

[Kratos]

u do pct.....bloodwork then shows all your levels to be in the normal range...could u still have an issue in regards to fertility?

It is possible to still have problems with fertility, but usually if testosterone recovers sperm follow. If fertility is a concern you need to have your sperm counted. You may have to wear an icepack in your underwear or something like that don't know for sure of all the treetments. I don't want to knock anyone up right now so I haven't really looked into it.