Thinking of throwing some Dbol

[BlackWidow]

Hey guys,

I finished the first week of my first cycle of 500 mg test enanthate weekly.. I am not in a rush for gains as you may think but I am thinking of adding some dbol may be 30 mg ED for 4 weeks ( weeks 2-5 ) of the whole 10 weeker I am doing.
My questions are:

1) Would it be a good idea?!
2) If so, I am using Nolva 20 mg + Proviron 50 mg ED from the start of the cycle... Would these two ancillary drugs be a ble to combat for the estrogenic sides of the dbol and the test I am using?!!

I really need your input guys and surely it'll be appreciated.

[plzr8]

1) yah its a fine idea, although bump it up to 40mg ED IMO
2) everyone is different but should be OK with that....you would be much better off with some arimidex instead of the nolva, especially since adding dbols, and saving the nolva for pct tho

best of luck

[BlackWidow]

I couldn't get my hand on arimidex .. wouldn't the proviron at 50 mgs do the trick?!! I mean as an AI.

Thanks for your input.

[kfrost06]

I think adding the dbol is a good idea though once the test e kicks in around week 4 you may want to stop the dbol. I also try to stay away from AIs unless I need them and the nolva and proviron are perfect and should definitely be enough. The proviron will also make your test work better by decreasing your SHBG and free up the testosterone . AIs will inhibit gains. GL

[godkilla]

AIs will inhibit gains.

i dont think so. me and countless other use ai's during cycle. hell, i even ran binos gyno reversal protocol (letro2.5mgs ed) during cycle and still gained like a mofo. gained almost 20lbs that cycle and my bf only increased by less than 2%. so speaking from exp, i would have to disagree.

now i would only use an ai or serm during cycle if i was prone to gyno or exp side effects. no need wasting serms and/or ai's if you dont even need them. worried about bloat, check your diet cause all the ai in the world wont help if your diet sucks. atleast that has been my exp so far.

[kfrost06]

i dont think so. me and countless other use ai's during cycle. hell, i even ran binos gyno reversal protocol (letro2.5mgs ed) during cycle and still gained like a mofo. gained almost 20lbs that cycle and my bf only increased by less than 2%. so speaking from exp, i would have to disagree.

It's not a matter of opinion.

1.)One important effect of steroids is stimulation of glucose 6-phosphate dehydrogenase however without estrogens, androgens are not able to fully exert their stimulatory activity on this enzyme which is key to anabolic activity. The synergistic effects of estrogen and testosterone :

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...t=AbstractPlus

Androgen-estrogen synergy in rat levator ani muscle: glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase.

The effects of castration and hormone administration on the activity of glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase in the rat levator ani muscle were studied. Castration caused a decrease in enzyme activity and in wet weight of the levator ani muscle. Chronic administration of testosterone propionate increased glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase activity in the levator ani muscle of castrated rats; the magnitude of the recovery of enzyme activity was related to the length of time of exposure to testosterone propionate after castration as well as to the length of time the animals were castrated. The longer the period of castration before exposure to testosterone propionate, the greater the effect. This result may be related to previously reported castration-mediated increases in androgen receptor binding in muscle. Dihydrotestosterone was less effective than testosterone propionate in enhancing glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase activity in the levator ani muscle from castrated rats; estradiol-17 beta alone was ineffective. Combined treatment with estradiol-17 beta and dihydrotestosterone, however, was as effective as testosterone alone. Thus, androgens and estrogens may exert synergistic effects on levator ani muscle.

2.)Estrogens have also been found to strongly increase the binding of steroids to their receptors by either a greater synthesis or a decreased degradation of androgen receptors.

http://endo.endojournals.org/cgi/con...5/3/862?ck=nck

Modulation of the cytosolic androgen receptor in striated muscle by sex steroids

We studied the influence of orchiectomy (GDX) and steroid administration on the level of cytosolic androgen receptor in rat levator ani muscle and rat skeletal muscles (tibialis anterior and extensor digitorum longus). Androgen receptor binding to muscle cytosol was measured using [3H]methyltrienolone (R1881) as ligand, a 100-fold molar excess of unlabeled R1881 to assess nonspecific binding, and a 500-fold molar excess of triamcinolone acetonide to prevent binding to glucocorticoid and progestin receptors. Bound and free ligand were separated by column chromatography with Sephadex G-75. In levator ani muscles from intact animals (controls), maximum R1881 binding (Bmax), determined by Scatchard analysis, was 2.5 fmol/mg protein (Kd = 0.68 nM). Thirty days after GDX, Bmax increased to 500% of the control value, with no significant change in Kd (0.96 nM). Using saturating levels of R1881, Bmax was increased to 280% of the control value 12 h post-GDX, 600% at 14 days, 478% at 30 days, and 133% at 44 days. The increase in receptor binding was blocked by cycloheximide. Administration of Silastic capsules containing testosterone propionate 30 days post-GDX resulted in R1881 binding at the control level at 44 days. Surprisingly, administration of 17 beta-estradiol (E2) 30 days post-GDX resulted in increased (480%) R1881 binding. Thus, E2 may cause induction of the cytosolic androgen receptor in levator ani muscle from GDX rats; alternatively, the rate of receptor degradation may be altered. R1881 binding by skeletal muscle cytosol was increased 139% at 12 h, 212% on day 14, 220% on day 30, and 158% on day 44 with respect to the control value. Administration of testosterone propionate at 30 days caused R1881 binding to return to the control value by day 44, whereas E2 was without influence. The differences in response of levator ani and skeletal muscle receptors may account for the differential effects of sex steroids on these muscle types.

3.)In addition, anti-estrogens may(likely) suppress GH and IGF-1 production all of which can and does effect muscle gains on cycles.(this is debatable and there is conflicting evidence).

[godkilla]

i run an ai every cycle because i am gyno prone and have not noticed any hinderance of gains. now if your trying to tell me that i could have gained more without the ai's, well i really have trouble believeing that i could have put on much more muscle in such a short period of time. this is just my personal exp and yes i read your rat report.

[BOUNCER 01]

Good luck mate!

[AUSGYMJUNKIE]

as for the dbol question if i were you i would add it in.....i did it for the cycle im on at the moment for the first 4 weeks i was taking 30mg of dbol a day was more than enough for a kickstart i think...some people say more is better i tend to disagree but hey each to there own..