Comparing the effects of 17alpha-alkylate orals on the liver

[bvdboy4life]

I know that Dbol and some other orals are really bad on the liver, but if you were to compare it to the effects of alcohol on the liver, what would the beer equivalents be?

For example, 30mg of Dbol would have the same effect on the liver as 5 beers...10 beers...or even 20 beers? Just wondering if I could get a rough estimate.

[pr0digy9daniel]

Who knows, they are both bad on the liver. I personally stick to my non 17aa injectables... Not to mention regular blood tests on liver/kidney values...

[epno]

I get tired of hearing people answer questions about orals by saying to use pins. That's not for everyone. I'd be interested to hear answers for more orals than just Dbol. Like Anavar, Furazabol, Turinabol, Halotestin, Masteron, and Winny. I've also seen sublingual testosterone supension, testosterone propionate, boldenone propinate, and Nandrolone phenprop ( Durabolin ) are available: all of these aren't 17aa, thus less liver toxic. I do know that if you pulse the orals you can minimize the sides. Gains will be smaller, but supposedly more permanent.

Here's a sticky posted on the Anabolics Xtreme site in the "Ask Dr. D" section:

What is "pulse" cycling? Pulsing is a method of dosing a product designed to intentionally avoid potential long term side effects such as HPTA suppression and liver damage. This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy. However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. With pulsing, the serious long term side effects of chronic oral treatment are avoided and short term side effect like acne and mineral retention are much milder that usual. This allows for higher doses to be used since the dosing is less frequent. For example, if you would normally take a product at 30 mg/day, that equals a total intake of 210 mg/week. While pulsing, you might typically take 40 mg on work out days only, 3 times per week. That only comes out to 120 mg/week total! This provides the needed benefits of the product at the most crucial times, which are just before and just after a work out, and offers a means of avoiding the suppression of endogenous steroid production one would expect on a standard, daily dosing cycle. In other words, you can often pulse a compound for 6-8 weeks before you realistically need to start thinking about a conventional post cycle therapy. After a 4 week pulsing cycle, post cycle therapy should not even be required in most cases!

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides. That's not a bad trade off and very economical on the body and as well as the wallet! Of course, if you would have gained 10 pounds on a standard 1 month cycle, you will only gain about 6 pounds per month pulsing, but it also means you can do this for twice as long as a standard cycle. That equals about 2 months of worry free dosing, so the net effect is a gain of about 12 pounds over 2 months instead of 10 pounds over 1 month. This structure offers fewer sides and a milder post cycle therapy requirement (if even needed at all) plus the slower gains tend to have a better residual that is more likely to be permanent compared to faster gains. It's a great long term strategy for vets wanting to run 12 weeks, and good for new users too looking to run fast and clean 1 month cycles with no post cycle therapy needed later.

There are three common approaches to pulsing:
1) EOD dosing, so 3-4 times per week.
2) 2 days on / 2 days off
3) 2 weeks on / 1-2 weeks off (some guys do this and think it's great, I don't practice it but it looks exceptionally safe at least)

Depending on your workout schedule, I would use one of these options for optimal pulsing efficiency. Doses can usually be high (40-60 mg instead of 10-30 mg) but take them close together preferably before 6 pm. It's not crucial you take the last dose before 6 pm, but the earlier the better for avoiding shut down. Take half of the total dose pre work out and half post work out instead of spread out evenly over the whole day like a conventional cycle. If an odd dose is to be used, like 30 mg, take the majority pre work out (so 20 mg pre/10 mg post). However, when pulsing non methylated compounds or fast acting ethers, take the greater dose post work out instead of pre work out. When pulsing, dose at least 3 times per week but not more than 4 times to insure optimal results. 5 doses per week is pushing it and suppression will eventually ensue. If this is attempted, "holidays" of complete non use for up to a week per month may be required to discourage suppression. I do not recommend more than 4.5 doses per week and that is for advanced level only!

Also important to remember is nutrition. Have a good, high carb/calorie post work out meal or shake, and ingest sufficient protein especially on the off days. Off days are also a good time to take a cortisol antagonist or even just low dose DHEA (25-50 mg) if you're a slow healer or hard gainer especially. Cortisol peaks in the morning and again in the mid afternoon so dose at those 2 times minimum. Although pulsing is a great way to avoid suppression, if you're extra sensitive to shut down or using a very suppressive compound, an herbal testosterone booster can be used on the off nights or even included everyday. In fact, running test boosters as the core of your cycle and pulsing a methyl just to augment that is possibly one of the best methods you could employ if not using injectable testosterone. Also, avoid the use of SERMs with long half lives when pulsing. An aromatase inhibitor (AI) or test booster will further punctuate the positive, hormonal "bounce back" effect of pulsing. This bounce back phenomenon is an effect that is often noted when pulsing, so don't be alarmed if your testicular size increases dramatically on the off days. It is not uncommon for testicular volume and testosterone levels to increase above baseline, especially on consecutive off days during the pulse or after the cycle is over. This is like a built in post cycle therapy effect and if you're pulsing properly, you should experiences this to some degree. In pulsing, it is also important to remember that the smaller number of dose exposures means faster liver clearance. Normal safety ancillaries like healthy oils and lipid supplements are always advised on cycle and off, but be modest with liver protectants like Milk Thistle. They are generally counter productive and therefore not suggested when pulsing, except in conjunction with very potent or toxic compounds. If you elect to use liver protectants anyway, I would reserve them for off days only or take them no earlier than 6 hrs after your final dose of anabolics. Cycle safe!


Example of a 3x/wk pulse M,W,F:

Week-Dose(mg)
1 (10,20,30)
2 30
3 30-40
4 30-40
5 30-50
6 30-50
7 30-60
8 30-60

Example of a 4x/wk pulse Sat, Sun, Wed, Thur:

My follow up question...

Dr. D,

Thanks for the great article on pulsing orals. I'm wondering how long a pulsing cylce could last without creating a need for PCT and how long I should take off between cycles. You mentioned that a cortisol inhibitor would be useful on off days. What do you think of Phosphatidylserine as a cortisol inhibitor? I read that 500mg/day would effectively inhibit cortisol.

[U]Dr. D's Answer:

4-8wks ON is the most common and then take OFF at least 2-4wks before going again. PPS is a good choice, but like you said take a high dose. Not less that 300mg/d and 500 or more is better.

[magic32]

What is "pulse" cycling?
This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy.
YET ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT ADAPTING THE PROPERTIES OF WHAT MAY BE A VERY VALID TECHNIQUE, FOR USE IN A WHOLLY UNINTENDED ARENA!

...with no post cycle therapy needed later.
UH YEAH, THAT WOULD BE BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T CYCLED!

If these people put a twentieth of the energies used for circumventing protocols into their training and diets, they'd have far more fulfilling cycles.

[taiboxa]

im lil confused on where these statistics came from

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides.

i mean.. you grow outside the GYM.. not in the gym thus wouldnt it be prudent to have the compound in your system while ur resting and recovering?
meh wut do i know.. im no doctor D

[Tbone1975]

I know that Dbol and some other orals are really bad on the liver, but if you were to compare it to the effects of alcohol on the liver, what would the beer equivalents be?

For example, 30mg of Dbol would have the same effect on the liver as 5 beers...10 beers...or even 20 beers? Just wondering if I could get a rough estimate.

I don't think 30mgs of dbol IS bad on the liver. I wouldn't do it year round but that's my opinion. That's a low dose. It's a touchy situation. IMO, some of the orals can get you places that the injectables simply can't. Make no mistakes about it though, I haven't injected everything, not even close. And have very limited experience with one of the strongest injects, tren. As for the beer question, I've wondered the same thing and even asked it LOL. I asked how many beers 1, 50mg anadrol tablet would be equivalant to in terms of liver stress once. Taiboxa responded something like, "four shots?" I don't know if he was joking or not though. I don't think any studies have been done on it.

[pimpdawgin]

Well, it would be pretty sweet if you could get solid gains and avoid short and long-term sides, but something that might work in theory is a lot different than working in reality. Does anyone know of any studies/trials that would suggest something like this is possible?
And, yeah, I agree with Taiboxa that it would seem to be a better idea to have the compound in the system while recovering as well. Having it in stable blood levels also seems to be better than having it fluctuate wildly.

[epno]

Guys, posting the article on pulsing was only meant to present the option to bvdboy4life that pulsing could potentially mitigate the hepatoxicity of 17aa oral compounds.

Magic32 said...

Originally Posted by epno
What is "pulse" cycling?
This technique is usually applied as a means of toxicity control when potent corticoids are used on children requiring long term therapy.
YET ANOTHER ATTEMPT AT ADAPTING THE PROPERTIES OF WHAT MAY BE A VERY VALID TECHNIQUE, FOR USE IN A WHOLLY UNINTENDED ARENA!

...with no post cycle therapy needed later.
UH YEAH, THAT WOULD BE BECAUSE YOU HAVEN'T CYCLED!

YOU SELECTIVELY QUOTED THE ARTICLE. IT GOES ON TO SAY....

"However, this method can be applied to anyone using any oral steroid with great success and significantly reduced side effects. "

Taiboxa said...

"im lil confused on where these statistics came from"

Basically, if you dose every day (ED) in perfectly spaced doses, you will achieve 100% effect, 100% short term side effects, and 100% long term side effects. If you dose every other day (EOD) like the pulse protocol, you still get about 60% effect and 75% short term sides, but only about 40% of the long term sides.

i mean.. you grow outside the GYM.. not in the gym thus wouldnt it be prudent to have the compound in your system while ur resting and recovering?
meh wut do i know.. im no doctor D"

Epno's opinion...

OK, so the statistics presented in the article are probably estimates and not precise. But in my opinion, the theory is sound. I intend to use the pulsing protocol and post my results. I'll be starting my cycle in 1-2 months. My last blood test showed 49 LDL, 43 HDL, for a total cholesterol of 102. I think that speaks volumes for my health consciousness, fitness, and diet. My Dr. said flat out that is the lowest cholesterol test he's ever seen.

In terms of the need for AS in the system post exercise. Sure, if you have even levels in your blood stream 24/7 while on cycle you'll have greater gains. But the pulsing protocol considers that by dosing pre and post work out. Combined with the fact that the half life of the compound will in most cases keep some of it in your system between doses, some of the benefits of having AS present post exercise should occur. My personal goals are strength gains without unecessary mass or bulk gain, so peak AS efficiency is probably not critical.

If we don't have a base line equivalency of toxicity we can understand for the compounds used, such as the alcohol comparison bvdboy4life is looking for, pulsing is a viable option. PCT should always be employed as needed. I plan on using it after pulsing just to be on the safe side.

[Kratos]

I really hate the idea of pulsing. There is no reason to think there are any benefits. Also the idea of being milder on the htpa is assuming it is an oral only cycle, and is just that an assumption. If your liver is your main concern don't use orals...duh. Is being a binge drinker on the weekend better or worse than drinking a few drinks every night?

[Swifto]

I really hate the idea of pulsing. There is no reason to think there are any benefits. Also the idea of being milder on the htpa is assuming it is an oral only cycle, and is just that an assumption. If your liver is your main concern don't use orals...duh. Is being a binge drinker on the weekend better or worse than drinking a few drinks every night?

I also dont like the idea. I've seen it ripped apart (other boards) more than once now too.