no pct iam screwed

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 11:21 AM

i got injured about about a month ago a small tear in my pec so iwas using 750mg a test e for the past 4 months i stopped using it about 3 weeks with no pct iam breaking out like crazy and lost about 8 lbs i also took 2 weeks off from lifting. now iam lifting again light on chest to rehab it but normal on everything else i dont plan on getting back on until april so will body adjust back to normal and how long? what am i in for?

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 11:28 AM

well up ya calories and protein even more if you can to try n slow ya loss's.

plus get some nolva from ar to help kick ya fellas back into action.

look at going through a few months of acne, low energy, low sex drive and loosing some of ya gains if you cant get some nolva im afraid to say.

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 11:32 AM

i can get clomid but i will take a few weeks to get here i would not have got off now if i was not injured what about test boosters from gnc is it a waste of money or what

**kfrost06** · 12-17-2007, 11:38 AM

In the future, always have your PCT on hand before you start your cycle. For me clomid tends to give me acne, remember clomid and nolva are both estogens and higher estrogen levels tend to give you acne.

GL

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

In the future, always have your PCT on hand before you start your cycle. For me clomid tends to give me acne, remember clomid and nolva are both estogens and higher estrogen levels tend to give you acne.

GL

nolva and clomid are estrogens?

think you'll find there anti-estrogens so lower estrogen.

edit* this was a simplified comment, meaning lowers effects of estrogen, not lower the amount of free estrogen in the body.

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by flex25j

i can get clomid but i will take a few weeks to get here i would not have got off now if i was not injured what about test boosters from gnc is it a waste of money or what

Click on one of these words in blue and they will take you to the ar shop where u can get tamox, clomid etc
they will be on ya doorstep within 5 days.

**Lexed** · 12-17-2007, 11:57 AM

do you got any buddies at the gym that might have some leftover. Cause I miscalculated my pct once and had to get extra and a friend of mine at the gym hooked me up with them

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 12:04 PM

yeah i probley could find some how much of a difference does it make anyway

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by flex25j

yeah i probley could find some how much of a difference does it make anyway

as in how much difference will nolva or clomid make?

a lot if thats the question.

will get ya producing natty test so loss's will be lower, and ya body will get back to a natty state quicker.

**reconforce4** · 12-17-2007, 12:15 PM

thats a lesson for everybody, always have the supplies for ur cycles on hand, including antie and nolva clomid for pct

**Amorphic** · 12-17-2007, 12:51 PM

expect recovery to take roughly 6 months without any pct chems, get some bloodwork done to see where you are at

RA · 12-17-2007, 01:03 PM

Youve probably already heard it but you should have everything for your cycle on hand including pct before you ever start. You can never guarantee whats going to happen.

**kfrost06** · 12-17-2007, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by shifty_git

nolva and clomid are estrogens?

think you'll find there anti-estrogens so lower estrogen.

You are misinformed, they are estrogens not anti-estrogens, there is a big difference. Do some research.

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 01:04 PM

6 months thats crazy ill start another cycle before thats up ill be starting in april again

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by kfrost06

You are misinformed, they are estrogens not anti-estrogens, there is a big difference. Do some research.

then why would you give a woman who had breast cancer and estrogen when estrogen feeds the cancer?

nolva and clomid (both being serms) are artificial, so not an estrogen but competes with estrogen and binds to estrogen receptors and mimic / allow estrogen like effects in some tissues, and block the receptors in other tissues to stop estrogen effects.

nolva and clomid do not contain estrogen.

**Stock** · 12-17-2007, 01:29 PM

Get some Myogenx, IMO, its not as good as SERMs and AI's, but the best you will get in a suppliment

**Facecrash** · 12-17-2007, 01:36 PM

dude get nolva and clomid from lion or any other research site. dont mess around. Simple answer, jump on nolva/clomid as soona s you can. run for 6 weeks. get bloodwork done.

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Facecrash

dude get nolva and clomid from lion or any other research site. dont mess around. Simple answer, jump on nolva/clomid as soona s you can. run for 6 weeks. get bloodwork done.

i second this.

RA · 12-17-2007, 01:51 PM

Not estrogens...also not technically anti-estrogens.

Originally Posted by kfrost06

You are misinformed, they are estrogens not anti-estrogens, there is a big difference. Do some research.

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by roidattack

Not estrogens...also not technically anti-estrogens.

Thats what i thought, and only used the term anti-estrogens to simplify things as the thread was about a basic pct and they have an 'negative effect' on estrogen. (ie anti rather than pro effect)

have corrected my earlier post stating is was a simplification, as obviously as there serms they dont lower the amount of estrogen in the body but bind with receptors and block estrogen.

but obviously they are not an estrogen or increase it, otherwise they wouldnt make a very good breast cancer treatment. lol

**Stock** · 12-17-2007, 02:16 PM

W/ the availability of AI's there really is no excuse for not doing PCT. Get Nolva and/or aromasin and get on it. A friend of mine and I cycled together this last year and I ran PCT he didnt. I kept 75% of my gains he kept 30%, he also has gyno and is trying to get rid of it, I dont. So, IMO, a cycle is only as good as your PCT...

BTW, I mentioned Myogenx above, get some of that as well and add to the Nolva/Aromasin, it does help.

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 02:34 PM

its already been 3 weeks and it will take 2 more for me to get that in

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by flex25j

its already been 3 weeks and it will take 2 more for me to get that in

that cause u cant afford it? or cause ya supplier cant get it 2 u till then?

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 02:43 PM

supplier cant get it to me until then

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 02:45 PM

get them from ar then!

will be on ya doorstep in 5days.

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 02:47 PM

ar where?

**Facecrash** · 12-17-2007, 02:47 PM

go to ar.r dude. it's worth it, even if it's 4-5 week after cycle, do pct.

**powerliftmike** · 12-17-2007, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by shifty_git

then why would you give a woman who had breast cancer and estrogen when estrogen feeds the cancer?

nolva and clomid (both being serms) are artificial, so not an estrogen but competes with estrogen and binds to estrogen receptors and mimic / allow estrogen like effects in some tissues, and block the receptors in other tissues to stop estrogen effects.

nolva and clomid do not contain estrogen.

clomid and nolvadex are technically synthetic estrogens. calling them just estrogens would kind of like calling trenbolone a testosterone tho.

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 02:53 PM

cant find it in ar

**flex25j** · 12-17-2007, 02:55 PM

i see it now but its taking me in circles

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by powerliftmike

clomid and nolvadex are technically synthetic estrogens. calling them just estrogens would kind of like calling trenbolone a testosterone tho.

Thats what i was trying to get. lol (post 15)

So they compete with natty estrogen but are altered (artificial) to have the desired effect.

If (for a very basic example) the receptors were a round hole, the estrogen and the nolva/clomid need to be a round peg to fit.
Yet then the rest of compoud is altered to block / exaggerate certain effects once its in place.

so therefore nolva / clomid are not a natural form of estrogen?
That correct?

**shifty_git** · 12-17-2007, 03:20 PM

Visual example....

So even though the binding part of the compound fits the receptor the rest of the compound doesnt necessarily have the same chemial make-up and effects.

**kfrost06** · 12-19-2007, 09:36 PM

Originally Posted by powerliftmike

clomid and nolvadex are technically synthetic estrogens. calling them just estrogens would kind of like calling trenbolone a testosterone tho.

thats a good analogy but slightly off and heres why, many people mistakenly assume estrogen is a molecule like testosterone is. That is if you say testosterone you are talking about a specific molecule with a specific structure where as with estrogen it is a class or group of molecules which consist of almost a countless amount of molecules that act on ERs(estrogen receptors). The three main endogenous estrogens are estradiol, estriol, and estrone.

Now to be very specific one could say exogenous estrogen, synthetic estrogen, or even xenoestrogen, phytoestogen, mycoestrogens or pharmaceutical estrogens. At one time SERMs were referred to as anti-estrogens because of their antagonists properties on certian ERs, i.e. in the mammory glands. However it is no longer referred to as an AE in the medical circles because most SERMs including nolva and clomid have agonists properties on the ERs, that is they activate the ERs and initiate gene transcription. Also, at one time Pluto was a planet but now it is not so basicly it's all in the name. The reason I reffered to them as estrogen is because they bind to all the ERs in the body and with the exception of the ERs in the mammory gland where the co-activators can not bind, they activate gene transcription and the person will experience estrogenic effects from the compound.

**kfrost06** · 12-19-2007, 09:45 PM

Originally Posted by shifty_git

Thats what i was trying to get. lol (post 15)

So they compete with natty estrogen but are altered (artificial) to have the desired effect.

If (for a very basic example) the receptors were a round hole, the estrogen and the nolva/clomid need to be a round peg to fit.
Yet then the rest of compoud is altered to block / exaggerate certain effects once its in place.

so therefore nolva / clomid are not a natural form of estrogen?
That correct?

Not sure why you messaged me to tell me I was wrong nor do I care but correct the pharmaceutical drug nolva/clomid are not natural estrogen and neither is the testosterone you inject natural testosterone. Read the above post for a better description. I think your going along the right path with the diagram and I have a perfect diagram on my other computer that helps you visualize how the SERM works to prevent breast cancer or gynocomastia. I post it up tomorrow when I can.