Can you gain muscle in a calorie deficit?

**ramsay_1** · 12-22-2007, 07:49 AM

When I start my new lean cycle in feb consisting of

500mg Test pw
600mg EQ pw

and im doing 5 days 40mins low intensity cardio on empty stomach.

I want to know should I keep my cals at maintenance OR less to gain muscle and keep the fat off? Im looking to keep my six-pack, add little size and bring my viens out. I will be running an AI through out to minimise bloat. Any other help to achieve my goals?

thanx

**ramsay_1** · 12-22-2007, 09:31 AM

bump

**redz** · 12-22-2007, 09:42 AM

im no expert but that is waisting what you are using. You should get celnbutrol or something like that to lose weight and then get on the juice

**ramsay_1** · 12-22-2007, 10:25 AM

I dont need to lose weight bro im 10% bf. Im just looking at how I can minimise the bloat and keep what i have while adding muscle. This is my 3rd cycle aswell

**redz** · 12-22-2007, 10:32 AM

You should be fine with the eq, there are other things that help with bloat like arimidex you could take on cycle. I just don`t think no eating at any point is a good idea while on cycle.

**redz** · 12-22-2007, 10:42 AM

actually now that I think about it Nolva is probably better than arimidex in that factor but arimidex is probably better for preventing bad gyno sides.

**fLgAtOr** · 12-22-2007, 10:53 AM

Originally Posted by ramsay_1

When I start my new lean cycle in feb consisting of

500mg Test pw
600mg EQ pw

and im doing 5 days 40mins low intensity cardio on empty stomach.

I want to know should I keep my cals at maintenance OR less to gain muscle and keep the fat off? Im looking to keep my six-pack, add little size and bring my viens out. I will be running an AI through out to minimise bloat. Any other help to achieve my goals?

thanx

I think you're on the right track. You will actually want to be in a calorie SURPLUS. But in order to make sure that the gains will be clean, your diet will need to be clean.

The AI (armidex, letro or aromasin ) is a great choice as well... Minimizing bloat reaquires lowering estrogen systemically, not just at the breast tissue (nolva for example). Just remember to use as little as possible, some estro is good for proper bodily functions like immune system, etc.

Go post your diet up in the respecting forum and let those guys beat you up a little bit. The rest looks pretty good though from your post.

How's the PCT look?

**ramsay_1** · 12-22-2007, 11:17 AM

Thanx flgator not sure redz knew what he was on about. Im going to go with the cycle and like you said run a low dose of an AI because i know estro helps with your gains aswell.

Ive been tweeking my diet for the last few months, finding out what works for me so I should be ok while on cycle. Going to keep my protien high with moderate carbs and fats. I just need to find a good balance of cardio, diet and gear where I can gain the most muscle while keeping my bodyfat low and minimising the bloat

thanx for the help

**mx3** · 12-22-2007, 12:04 PM

I think tren ace or npp, prop and maybe some winni would better suit your needs. If Im correct you want to gain weight minimize bloat and not add fat. its all diet dependant but any of those listed compounds will harden you up and add muscle while minimizing bloat. and adding an ai thoughout will help as well.

**millionairemurph** · 12-22-2007, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by fLgAtOr

I think you're on the right track. You will actually want to be in a calorie SURPLUS. But in order to make sure that the gains will be clean, your diet will need to be clean.

The AI (armidex, letro or aromasin ) is a great choice as well... Minimizing bloat reaquires lowering estrogen systemically, not just at the breast tissue (nolva for example). Just remember to use as little as possible, some estro is good for proper bodily functions like immune system, etc.

Go post your diet up in the respecting forum and let those guys beat you up a little bit. The rest looks pretty good though from your post.

How's the PCT look?

^^^^ i agree here. By definition, a calorie deficit is less than one needs to function. So No, you cannot gain muscle that way.
I also agree with the statement that estrogen needs to be lowered systemically. Too many are parroting that nolva needs to be used, when in fact an ai would "cure" the root problem instead of blocking one facet of the negative sides to estrogen.

**MaGiCJNG** · 12-22-2007, 02:28 PM

Which ai would you recommend millionaire? Arimidex , aromasin ? I took letro before and dont like it.

**JAY_WD** · 12-22-2007, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by ramsay_1

When I start my new lean cycle in feb consisting of

500mg Test pw
600mg EQ pw

and im doing 5 days 40mins low intensity cardio on empty stomach.

I want to know should I keep my cals at maintenance OR less to gain muscle and keep the fat off? Im looking to keep my six-pack, add little size and bring my viens out. I will be running an AI through out to minimise bloat. Any other help to achieve my goals?

To achieve your goals, diet will def be the key!

thanx

IMO, firstly i would run Clen during cycle 2weeks on 2weeks off.
I would run an AI throughout to minimise bloat.
I would go into a calorie deficit each day but keep my diet very high in protein and healthy fats. Supplementing with alot of Amino acids will be a good idea to preserve muscle tissue while you are running o a calorie defecit.
Carbs only to be consumed first thing in morning and pre/post workout.

**Amorphic** · 12-22-2007, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by JAY WD

IMO, firstly i would run Clen during cycle 2weeks on 2weeks off.
I would run an AI throughout to minimise bloat.
I would go into a calorie deficit each day but keep my diet very high in protein and healthy fats. Supplementing with alot of Amino acids will be a good idea to preserve muscle tissue while you are running o a calorie defecit.
Carbs only to be consumed first thing in morning and pre/post workout.

i disagree.

if your diet is in check along with proper cardio, fat loss should be easily attained on this cycle. lets not forget that test is capable of burning fat. Clen is a waste imo.

running an AI without signs of gyno or high estrogen isnt a great idea for a few reasons, mainly, you are sacrificing gains on your cycle, and seconly, that estrogen is important for all bodily functions as flagator stated.

running a caloric deficit is a poor choice, you need fuel for your body to grow, regardless of fat loss goals, you arent helping yourself by eating less than the maintenance requirements for your size (and hopefully new size to come)

**RBIZZY** · 12-22-2007, 07:45 PM

to your question about A.I.'s i like aromasin . i think it works better than arimedex, but either one would be a good choice!

**Amorphic** · 12-22-2007, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by RBIZZY

to your question about A.I.'s i like aromasin. i think it works better than arimedex, but either one would be a good choice!

i think it would also be largely cycle dependant as well. aromasin would be overkill for say a test only cycle.

**JAY_WD** · 12-22-2007, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by Amorphic

i disagree.

if your diet is in check along with proper cardio, fat loss should be easily attained on this cycle. lets not forget that test is capable of burning fat. Clen is a waste imo.

running an AI without signs of gyno or high estrogen isnt a great idea for a few reasons, mainly, you are sacrificing gains on your cycle, and seconly, that estrogen is important for all bodily functions as flagator stated.

running a caloric deficit is a poor choice, you need fuel for your body to grow, regardless of fat loss goals, you arent helping yourself by eating less than the maintenance requirements for your size (and hopefully new size to come)

Amorphic not trying to flame...just want to get a better understanding.

Lets remember that his goal is to gain muscle and keep the fat off.

I agree 100% that if your diet is in check along with proper cardio, fat loss should be easy. But wouldnt the Clen further enhance his fat burning potential not to mention the added anti-catabolic properties. Wouldnt this help at all? Especially if he is going into a calorie defecit. It will help to preserve muscle.

The only reason i suggested not to run an AI was because he wanted to keep his bloat down. Yes he will be sacrificing his gains but its not to say that he wont gain anything at all. He says in his orig post that he wants to gain a little muscle but keep fat down.

I understand that the body needs fuel to grow thats why i suggested he take his higher calorie meals containg carbs early morning and pre/post workout when he is in his most anabolic state.
If he was to run into a calorie defecit, what would you suggest for maximum fat burning/muscle preservation. Maintenance?

Like i said, not trying to flame...just want to understand a little better.

**RBIZZY** · 12-22-2007, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by Amorphic

i think it would also be largely cycle dependant as well. aromasin would be overkill for say a test only cycle.

yeah your right.... maybe at a lower dose than normal it would be okay, aromasin is just so damn expensive.... i find that proper pct is more or just as expensive as a cycle...

**mario_ps2** · 12-22-2007, 08:47 PM

Well I have heard and read a lot of good stuff when taking tren a or e. That it's even possible to gain muscle in a calorie deficit! It is that powerful!!

tren users ... any

**Amorphic** · 12-22-2007, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by JAY WD

Amorphic not trying to flame...just want to get a better understanding.

Lets remember that his goal is to gain muscle and keep the fat off.

I agree 100% that if your diet is in check along with proper cardio, fat loss should be easy. But wouldnt the Clen further enhance his fat burning potential not to mention the added anti-catabolic properties. Wouldnt this help at all? Especially if he is going into a calorie defecit. It will help to preserve muscle.

The only reason i suggested not to run an AI was because he wanted to keep his bloat down. Yes he will be sacrificing his gains but its not to say that he wont gain anything at all. He says in his orig post that he wants to gain a little muscle but keep fat down.

I understand that the body needs fuel to grow thats why i suggested he take his higher calorie meals containg carbs early morning and pre/post workout when he is in his most anabolic state.
If he was to run into a calorie defecit, what would you suggest for maximum fat burning/muscle preservation. Maintenance?

Like i said, not trying to flame...just want to understand a little better.

dont worry, you're not flaming bro.

Personally for me, i did not like clen. It works great for some and does very little for others. I dont think the endless shakes and headaches are worth it for fat loss.

if i was running a cycle to lose fat on a deficit, it would be tren , due to its powerful effects on nutrient partitioning.

**JAY_WD** · 12-22-2007, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Amorphic

dont worry, you're not flaming bro.

Personally for me, i did not like clen . It works great for some and does very little for others. I dont think the endless shakes and headaches are worth it for fat loss.

if i was running a cycle to lose fat on a deficit, it would be tren, due to its powerful effects on nutrient partitioning.

I hear ya brother! Cant wait to start next cycle Prop/Tren A/Winny

**ramsay_1** · 12-22-2007, 10:23 PM

Thanks v.much for the feedback guys. Taking into account what you have all said i think im going to run maintenance or just over for my calories, having pro + carb meals for breakfast and PWO the rest being pro + fat. I would love to run a prop, tren , winny cycle but i have used tren and winny and broke out in acne sooooo bad off them both. Hopefully using test and EQ I should be ok, plus im going to still be on accutane while on cycle. With regards to the AI I think im going to run a really low dose from the beginning because if my diet and training are spot on I still think ill enjoy my gains without estro.

cheers

**ShadetreeJones** · 12-22-2007, 11:50 PM

What if you run a little Primo with a lower calorie diet to prevent catabolic breakdown if you are just trying to add a little mass and not become circus big?

Say for instance, Test e/c;, Primo with a super clean diet, and some Deca to keep joints comfy and add just a little oomph to the cycle?

**ramsay_1** · 12-23-2007, 07:31 AM

I just wana keep it simple bro, primo is too expensive and adding deca is a waste of time, all your asking for is to be shut down for longer and possible deca dick

**equipped** · 12-23-2007, 09:16 AM

Agree, use clen , Keep your cardio in check and it's all about what KIND of calories you are taking in/leaving out. You Have to have calories. If you want to lose weight, take a hard look at first at what you are/aren't eating and then look at your cardio.

**ShadetreeJones** · 12-23-2007, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by ramsay_1

I just wana keep it simple bro, primo is too expensive and adding deca is a waste of time, all your asking for is to be shut down for longer and possible deca dick

Why shut down longer? Thats why I would keep it at 250/300 mgs a week.
Like 500-600 mgs Test e, 300-400 mgs Primo, and 250-300 mgs of Deca .

Is Primo known shut you down?

**Amorphic** · 12-23-2007, 02:50 PM

100mgs of deca will shut you down fully within a day, so that is most likely ramsays reasoning behind not wanting to use it

from the deca profile:

a simgle measly 100mg injection of Deca caused a total (100%) reduction of natural testosterone levels, and it took roughly a month to return those testosterone levels to baseline! All from 100mgs of Deca

**IntenseAthlete** · 12-23-2007, 08:33 PM

anavar will it work

If you want to know about gaining mass while staying lean then read this thread has some interesting posts

**fLgAtOr** · 12-23-2007, 10:22 PM

I think most are missing the point.

The goal is to GAIN muscle while keeping bf% the same. He could technically gain a pound of muscle and a pound of fat and keep the same bf% (just for the sake of the example).

This is what is refered to as a "lean bulk". He will gain muscle with hopefully a smaller amount of bf and his bf% (at best) will go down. He will be bigger and leaner. The compounds will aid this process, but the majority of it will be based on caloric choices...but only in a muscle building environment.

Those speaking of "building in a calorie deficit" should really only be possible with certain compounds (tren )....and even then its not really efficient....