Little help with cycle

[mayhemike]

I am 30 years old 5'10 185 lbs. 20% body fat and have been working out for about a year and a half. (I have taken EQ for 6 weeks, been 6 months since then)
I am looking for a cutting cycle, I am currently taking 3 weeks of clen(ramping up), and 3 weeks of t3then another cycle of clen ramping up. After this cycle I wanted to take tren, winny, and maybe a little test. I don't want to get big at all, I really want to shred all of this access fat. Any advice on the stack as far as doses?

[soccer#3]

theres an unwritten rule that not to touch gear until u hit 15% or less in bf. i'd suggest cardio and a good diet as of right now. then u finally decide to cycle, i wouldnt touch tren on the first cycle. matter of fact, i wouldnt touch tren until 3-4 cycle. but thats just me. once ur ready for a real cycle, a simple test e cycle for 10-12 weeks is highly recommended as a first cycle. good luck

[breakbones]

^^^Yup^^^

[juicenchris2989]

yes that is the rule of thumb but ive seen countless numbers of ppl going from 20 or 21 bf down to 17 even low 16 with a cycle its not recommend the lower the bf the better results your going to get but i personally think with 20 bf you can still get away with it but looking at your proposed cycle wouldnt use the winny i feel that for that to have good affects your gonna need lower bf . btw sorry to let you know but your 6wks experiment with EQ was a waste you gotta run eq atleast 10 12 wks

[justincredible]

I agree with everyone so far...and disagree somewhat, as well. Yes, you absolutely need to commit yourself 100% right away to a diet and a cardio regime that is going to shed a bit more of your body fat before you even start a cycle. And even when you're on cycle, you can still to some extent dictate the type of results that you acheive with your diet, and the way you train. Most people on this board will tell you that tren is not a good choice for a first cycle, and for the most part I agree with that. However, as with anything else...different people handle the sides of tren differently than others. And when it comes down to it, there's only ONE way to find out how YOUR body is going to react to the sides, and that's obviously to do it. A lot of people come on this board looking for advice, and end up doing whatever they want anyway, REGARDLESS of the legitimate good advice that was given to them. The 19 year olds who are asking what a good cycle would be don't want to hear people tell them that they need to wait a few years before they do a cycle, you know? In fact, 5 times ouf of ten, they probably already have the pin in their ass before they even log out. So it's one thing to give the RIGHT advice, and another thing to give SAFE advice for the people who AREN'T going to listen to something that they want to hear. ME PERSONALLY...if I could go back and do my FIRST cycle over again...it would most definitely include tren. At a relatively small dosage, but it would be there for sure. My body handles the sides very well compared to others that I've read about and talked to. So, in summary...I would work your ass off, eat right and continue training with good fat burning cardio until you drop to below 15% Body Fat. After that, I would do exactly what you are ALREADY planning (thinking) that you want to do. Test Prop, Tren, and winny. That's only ME though. That's just what JC would do... (Justincredible)

[longhorn814]

since youve never done a real cycle..6 weeks of Eq is worthless..all you need is 500mg/wk of test e for 10-12 weeks followed by a PCT starting 14 days after your last shot of test e..diet dictates what kinda of results you get..not the number of compounds..besides if you start taking a bunch of compounds youve never taken before and you start getting sides, how will you know what is causing them?

[mayhemike]

well for the most part youre right I do plan ondoing something anyway. Havent checked my body fat in sometime and I will make sure that I get to 15% beforehand. Given my stats and my desire not to get big, how much do you recommend of each on a cycle?

[mayhemike]

well for the most part youre right I do plan ondoing something anyway. Havent checked my body fat in sometime and I will make sure that I get to 15% beforehand. Given my stats and my desire not to get big, how much do you recommend of each on a cycle?

[longhorn814]

well for the most part youre right I do plan ondoing something anyway. Havent checked my body fat in sometime and I will make sure that I get to 15% beforehand. Given my stats and my desire not to get big, how much do you recommend of each on a cycle?

see my previous post..nothing more than 500mg/wk of test e..no need for other compounds since youve never really run anything before...you can easily cut on test only..its all dependant on your diet

[justincredible]

The problem that I have in trying to suggest dosages to you is your desire to NOT get big...and only burn body fat. In which case I would have to question why you're even wanting to stack in the first place. If removal of body fat is your primary goal, then I would suggest sticking with your Clen/T3 cycles and making sure your diet and cardio are in right on. If you felt it necessary to take any compound at all then I would agree with Longhorn and just take 500mg/wk of test to prevent your clen/T3 from being catabolic. You can say "Cutter, or Bulker" but when it comes down to it, it's possible to cut and bulk on the same hormones. But the idea of doing a 3 compund cycle to "Not get big at all", as you stated, whether your intent is to "cut" or not, is really kind of ...

[mayhemike]

thanks again for the advice I will start running 1st in the morning,do you guys recommend interval running? jump rope? what can I do besides eating of courseto speed this up?

[Kale]

thanks again for the advice I will start running 1st in the morning,do you guys recommend interval running? jump rope? what can I do besides eating of courseto speed this up?

A.M. Fat Burn
Author: Tom Venuto
Date: Aug 01, 2001

Even though morning cardio has been embraced by bodybuilders as a "tried and true" fat loss technique, there is definitely not a unanimous agreement about its effectiveness, especially in the scientific community. Most competitive bodybuilders are die-hard advocates of doing cardio first thing in the morning before eating their first meal. They believe it will cause them to mobilize more stored body fat and increase their metabolic rate all day long. There’s quite a bit of scientific literature supporting the a.m. fasted cardio theory, but generally, the exercise physiologists and scientists tend not to buy it. They subscribe to the energy balance hypothesis, which states; as long as you burn more calories than you consume in each 24 hour period, then the time of day you burn them doesn’t matter, nor does whether you burn them from fat or carbohydrate.

If you have even the most rudimentary understanding of human physiology and physics, you have to concede that the timing of your cardio is not the most important factor in fat loss. When you do your cardio won’t make or break you. Simply doing it whenever it’s convenient and following a mildly calorie restricted diet is what’s important. However, there’s a very strong case for doing fasted a.m. cardio and if you want to gain every legal and ethical advantage possible in your quest to get leaner then it’s definitely something you should take a closer look at.

The argument in favor of fasted early morning cardio goes something like this:

1. When you wake up in the morning after an overnight 8-12 hour fast, your body’s stores of glycogen are somewhat depleted. Doing cardio in this state causes your body to mobilize more fat because of the unavailability of glycogen.

2. Eating causes a release of insulin. Insulin interferes with the mobilization of body fat. Less insulin is present in the morning; therefore, more body fat is burned when cardio is done in the morning.

3. There is less carbohydrate (glucose) "floating around" in the bloodstream when you wake up after an overnight fast. With less glucose available, you will burn more fat.

4. If you eat immediately before a workout, you have to burn off what you just ate first before tapping into stored body fat (and insulin is elevated after a meal.)

5. When you do cardio in the morning, your metabolism stays elevated for a period of time after the workout is over. If you do cardio in the evening, you burn calories during the session so you definitely benefit from it, but you fail to take advantage of the "afterburn" effect because your metabolic rate drops dramatically as soon as you go to sleep.

Research supports this theory. A study performed at Kansas State University and published in Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise showed that a kilogram of fat is burned sooner when exercise is done in the fasted state in the morning than when it’s done later in the day. The researchers measured respiratory gas exchange, caloric expenditure and carbohydrate and fatty acid metabolism, and found that the amount of fat burned during aerobic exercise amounted to 67% of the total energy expenditure in the morning after a 12 hour fast. This is substantially higher than the 50% expenditure achieved when the same exercise was done later in the day or after eating. A similar study from The Journal of Applied Physiology looked at the effects of aerobic exercise on lipid oxidation in fed versus fasted states. The researchers concluded, "our results support the hypothesis that endurance training enhances lipid oxidation in men after a 12 hour overnight fast." Yet another scientific paper, Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss," reports, "The ability of exercise to selectively promote fat oxidation should be optimized if exercise is done during morning fasted metabolism."

Despite the fact that increased fat burning from morning aerobics seems logical and is backed by research, the majority of scientists and exercise physiologists vehemently deny its effectiveness. They are quick to point out that you can find a study to support almost any theory you want to advocate. Interestingly though, even the most dyed in the wool academics agree that you’ll burn more fat in the fuel mix as compared to sugars. The real controversy lies in whether this fact has any impact on overall fat loss in the long run.

Exercise Physiologist Greg Landry, MS, author of "The Metabolism System for Weight Loss and Fitness," explains, "I agree that you burn a fuel mix that is a little higher in fat if you’re exercising on an empty stomach. However, I think the real question is, does that matter? I believe we have a ‘pool’ of calories stored in different forms in the body (fat, glycogen, etc.), so ‘burned’ calories all come from the same pool. Thus, it really doesn’t matter that the fuel mix has a little more fat in it at a given time. If it’s pulling from fat stores at that time, then it’s pulling less from glycogen stores and thus future consumed calories will be a little more likely to be stored as fat because glycogen stores are a little fuller. So it’s all a wash."

Lyle McDonald, an expert on bodybuilding nutrition and author of "The Ketogenic Diet," agrees. He argues that the body will compensate later in the day and is simply "too smart" for strategies like this to ever work: "All that research says is that you burn a greater proportion of fat this way, which I agree with 100%," says Lyle. "The majority of research shows that as far as real world fat loss goes, it doesn’t really matter what you burn. Rather, 24-hour calorie balance is what matters. Because if you burn glucose during exercise, you tend to burn more fat the rest of the day. If you burn fat during exercise, you burn more glucose during the day. The end result is identical. If that weren’t the case, then athletes like sprinters who never ‘burn fat’ during exercise wouldn’t be shredded. Basically, they burn so many calories that they remain in balance and don’t gain any fat. So, while morning cardio probably provides some psychological benefits to bodybuilders who are programmed to do it that way, I can’t say that I think it will result in greater ‘real world’ fat loss, which is what matters."

When it comes to "real world" fat loss, few people have more experience than Chris Aceto. A successful bodybuilder and nutritionist to some of the top pro bodybuilders in the world, Aceto is a firm believer in morning cardio. He unequivocally states, "The fastest way to tap stored body fat is to do cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach."

Aceto believes that looking at calories only in terms of energy in vs. energy out is "limited thinking." He asserts that there are more factors involved in "real world" results than just energy balance. This all comes back to the old argument, are all calories created equal? "Absolutely not!" Aceto declares. "A calorie is not just a calorie and exercise physiologists ‘freak out’ when they hear this."

"These guys are working from the assumption that it’s just a matter of calories in vs. calories out, period," Chris continued. "With that line of reasoning, they’d be forced to say that if I consume nothing but candy bars and Coca-Cola, and take in 100 calories less than maintenance, I’d lose weight. We know it’s not that simple. You also have to account for ratios of carbs, protein, and fat. Then there’s meal frequency too: From real world results we know you put down more muscle mass from 5 or 6 meals a day than from 3 meals a day. There are more things involved than just calories."

Whether or not morning cardio in the fasted state increases "real world" fat loss is still the subject of controversy, but there are many other reasons you might want to consider making it a part of your daily routine. Landry, despite his doubts about whether the fuel source matters, admits, "If I had to pick a single factor I thought was most important in a successful weight loss program, it would have to be to exercise first thing in the morning."

Here are some of the additional benefits of doing cardio early in the morning:

1.It makes you feel great all day by releasing mood-enhancing endorphins.

2. It "energizes" you and "wakes you up."

3. It may help regulate your appetite for the rest of the day.

4. Your body’s circadian rhythm adjusts to your morning routine, making it easier to wake up at the same time every day.

5. You’ll be less likely to "blow off" your workout when it’s out of the way early (like when you’re exhausted after work or when friends ask you to join them at the pub for happy hour).

6. You can always "make time" for exercise by setting your alarm earlier in the morning.

7. It increases your metabolic rate for hours after the session is over.

Of all these benefits, the post-exercise increase in your metabolic rate is one of the most talked about. Scientists call this "afterburn" effect the "excess post-exercise oxygen consumption" or EPOC for short.

Looking only at the number of calories and the type of calories burned during the session doesn’t give you the full picture. You also need to look at the increased number of calories you continue to burn after the workout is over. That’s right - work out in the morning and you burn calories all day long. Imagine burning extra fat as you sit at your desk at work! That’s the good news. The bad news is, the degree of EPOC is not as great as most people think. It’s a myth that your metabolism stays elevated for 24 hours after a regular aerobic workout. That only happens after extremely intense and/or prolonged exercise such as running a marathon.

After low intensity exercise, the magnitude of the EPOC is so small that its impact on fat loss is negligible. Somewhere between 9 and 30 extra calories are burned after exercise at an intensity of less than 60-65% of maximal heart rate. In other words, a casual stroll on the treadmill will do next to nothing to increase your metabolism.

However, EPOC does increase with the intensity (and duration) of the exercise. According to Wilmore and Costill in "Physiology of Sport and Exercise," the EPOC after moderate exercise (75-80%) will amount to approximately .25 kcal/min or 15 kcal/hour. This would provide an additional expenditure of 75 kcal that would not normally be calculated in the total energy expended for that activity. An extra 75 calories is definitely nothing Earth shattering. However, it does add up over time. In a year that would mean (in theory) you would burn an extra 5.2 lbs of fat from the additional calories expended after the workout.

One way to get a significant post exercise "afterburn" is high intensity interval training (HIIT). HIIT is done by alternating brief periods of high intensity work (85% or more) with brief periods of lower intensity work. Studies on the effects of HIIT have demonstrated a much higher EPOC, which can add substantially to the day’s calorie expenditure. In one study, scientists from the University of Alabama compared the effects of two exercise protocols on 24-hour energy expenditure. The first group cycled for 60 minutes at a moderate intensity. The second group performed HIIT, cycling for two minutes at high intensity followed by two minutes at a low intensity. The group that performed the HIIT burned 160 more calories in 24 hours than the low intensity group. That means the HIIT group would burn an extra 11.8 pounds of fat in one year if they did HIIT five days a week instead of conventional training.

Ironically, weight training has a much higher magnitude of EPOC than aerobic training. Studies have shown increases in metabolic rate of as much as 4-7% over a 24-hour period from resistance training. Yes - that means bodybuilding does burn fat – albeit through an indirect mechanism. For someone with an expenditure of 2500 calories per day, that could add up to 100 - 175 extra calories burned after your weight training workout is over. The lesson is simple: Anyone interested in losing body fat who is not lifting weights should first take up a regimen of bodybuilding, then – and only then – start thinking about the morning cardio!

A common concern about doing cardio in the fasted state, especially if it’s done with high intensity, is the possibility of losing muscle. After an overnight fast, glycogen, blood glucose and insulin are all low. As we’ve already concluded, this is an optimum environment for burning fat. Unfortunately, it may also be an optimum environment for burning muscle because carbohydrate fuel sources are low and levels of the catabolic stress hormone cortisol are high. It sounds like morning cardio might be a double-edged sword, but there are ways to avert muscle loss.

All aerobic exercise will have some effect on building muscle, but as long as you don’t overdo it, you shouldn’t worry about losing muscle. It's a fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But you are constantly breaking down and re-building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover" and it’s a daily fact of life. Your goal is to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay anabolic and you gain or at least maintain muscle.

How do you build up more muscle than you break down? First, avoid excessive cardio. Aceto suggests limiting your cardio on an empty stomach to 30 minutes, and then it would be "highly unlikely that amino acids will be burned as fuel." He also mentions that "a strong cup of coffee should facilitate a shifting to burn more fat and less glycogen. If you can spare glycogen, you’ll ultimately spare protein too." You might also want to consider experimenting with the thermogenic ephedrine-caffeine-aspirin stack (or it’s herbal equivalent).

Second, give your body the proper nutritional support. Losing muscle probably has more to do with inadequate nutrition than with excessive aerobics. Provide yourself with the proper nutritional support for the rest of the day, including adequate meal frequency, protein, carbohydrates and total calories, and it’s not as likely that there will be a net loss of muscle tissue over each 24-hour period.

Third, keep training with heavy weights, even during a fat loss phase. Using light weights and higher reps thinking that it will help you get more "cut" is a mistake: What put the muscle on in the first place is likely to help you keep it there.

Still petrified of losing your hard-earned muscle, but you’d like to take advantage of the fat-burning and metabolism-boosting effects of morning cardio? One strategy many bodybuilders use is to drink a protein shake or eat a protein only meal 30-60 minutes prior to the morning session. The protein without the carbs will minimize the insulin response and allow you to mobilize fat while providing amino acids to prevent muscle breakdown.

In conclusion, it seems that morning cardio has enough indisputable benefits to motivate most people to set their alarms early. But let’s talk bottom line results here: Does it really result in more "real world fat loss" than aerobics performed at other times of the day or after eating? I have to believe it does. Experience, common sense and research all tell me so. Nevertheless, this will obviously continue to be an area of much debate, and clearly, more research is needed. In the meantime, while the scientists are busy in their labs measuring respiratory exchange ratios, caloric expenditures and rates of substrate utilization, I’m going to keep waking up at 6:00 AM every morning to get on my Stairmaster.

References

1. Aceto, Chris. Everything you need to know about fat loss. Club Creavalle, Inc. (1997).

2. Bahr, R. Excess post-exercise oxygen consumption – Magnitude, Mechanisms and Practical Implications. Acta Physiol Scand. Suppl. (1992) 605. 1-70.

3. Bergman, BC, Brooks, GA. Respiratory gas-exchange ratios during graded exercise in fed and fasted trained and untrained men. Journal of Applied Physiology. (1999) 86: 2.

4. Brehm, B.A., and Gutin, B. Recovery energy expenditure for steady state exercise in runners and non-exercisers. Medicine and Science in Sports and Exercise. (1986) 18: 205,

5. Brybner, BW. The effects of exercise intensity on body composition, weight loss, and dietary composition in women. Journal of American College of Nutrition, (1997) 16: 68-73

6. Landry, Greg. The Metabolism System for Weight Loss. Greg Landry. (2000).

7. Maehlum, S., etc al. Magnitude and duration of post exercise oxygen consumption in healthy young subjects. Metabolism (1986) 35 (5): 425-429.

8. McCarty, MF. Optimizing Exercise for Fat Loss. Medical Hypothesis. (1995) 44: 325-330

9. McDonald, Lyle. The Ketogenic Diet. Morris Publishing, (1998).

10. Melby, C. et al. Effect of acute resistance exercise on post exercise energy expenditure and resting metabolic rate. J Applied Physiology, (1993). 75: 1847-1853

11. Wilmore, Jack, Costill, David. Physiology of Sport and Exercise. (1999) 2nd ed. Human Kinetics

12. Tremblay, A, et al, Impact of exercise intensity on body fatness and skeletal muscle metabolism. Metabolism (1994) 43: 818-818

13. Treuth, M.S., Hunter, G.R., & Williams, M. Effects of exercise intensity on 24-h energy expenditure and substrate oxidation. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise. (1996) 28, 1138-1143

14.Wilcox, Harford & Wedel. Medicine and Science in Sports & Exercise, (1985) 17:2

[BEAMERMAN]

this is what i would do run my ass of every ****ing day.

[justincredible]

Kale, Very interesting Read, man...

[Kale]

this is what i would do run my ass of every ****ing day.

That is a very inefficient way of burning fat. Do some research

[mayhemike]

thanks again for the advice I will start running 1st in the morning,do you guys recommend interval running? jump rope? what can I do besides eating of courseto speed this up?

[mayhemike]

That article answered all my questions thanks again to everyone for your help

[mayhemike]

I do plan on eventually taking what I have winny trenbolone and test. my questionis after the ten weeks testhow should I stackthe other two how many mgand how often

[justincredible]

I do plan on eventually taking what I have winny trenbolone and test. my questionis after the ten weeks testhow should I stackthe other two how many mgand how often

What ester of tren do you have? And what strength? Winny 50mg?

[mayhemike]

t3000, and the winny only thing I know is I might wind up drinking due to the dartmarks

[longhorn814]

I do plan on eventually taking what I have winny trenbolone and test. my questionis after the ten weeks testhow should I stackthe other two how many mgand how often

run the test for 10 weeks and doa proper PCT..wait a few months and get you will be ready to add another compound to your cycle..

[justincredible]

t3000, and the winny only thing I know is I might wind up drinking due to the dartmarks

I think you're confused man...why don't you enable your Private Messages and send me one. I can help you get it firgured out easier. I don't know what the h*ll kind of tren you're talking about. Tren Acetate? Enanthate? 3000?!?!? do you even know? You don't know the strength of your winny? Hmmm...

[mayhemike]

what is doa?

[mayhemike]

what is doa?

[mayhemike]

it is acetate the name it is t400 sorry I amat work and doing all this from my phone

[mayhemike]

what is doa?

[longhorn814]

what is doa?

i meant "do a proper cycle"..i just forgot to hit the space bar..

[mayhemike]

what is doa?

[mayhemike]

I think you're confused man...why don't you enable your Private Messages and send me one. I can help you get it firgured out easier. I don't know what the h*ll kind of tren you're talking about. Tren Acetate? Enanthate? 3000?!?!? do you even know? You don't know the strength of your winny? Hmmm...

man I ve been trying to senda private message how do I change it ,or will it even let me since I am new

[green22]

you havent been training long enough to use, plus 20% is to fat. try training and dieting for 4-5 years clean, then think about using.