Cardio and steroids?

**ARNIE83** · 04-23-2008, 07:34 AM

I've decided to take the following for my next cycle:

Test E 500mg per week for 16 weeks.
Deca 400mg per week for 15 weeks.

i will be training four times a week:

tuesday - chest + triceps
Thursday - back + biceps
saturday - shoulders
sunday - legs

the question is regarding the amount and kind of cardio i should do to maintain condition, i don't men to get ripped but to stop the "smooth" look.

I'm thinkin of fast walking/ exercise bike first thing in morning 5 times a week for approx 45 mins?

what do you guys think?
any suggestions?

**iagainsti** · 04-23-2008, 11:08 AM

A good clean diet high in protein combined with cardio 5x week for 45mins should be golden. If you follow a low carb diet try and keep your cardio low intensity keeping your HR under approx 130bpm as not to burn muscle.

**jAcKeD!!!!** · 04-23-2008, 11:15 AM

fast pace walk or bike is useless. 20mins after workout while your heartrate is up on the elipitcal /cross trainer is key

**CheddaNips** · 04-23-2008, 11:20 AM

you should stop the deca 2 weeks before the test.

**RBD85** · 04-23-2008, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by jAcKeD!!!!

fast pace walk or bike is useless. 20mins after workout while your heartrate is up on the elipitcal /cross trainer is key

why do you say fast pace walking and biking is useless?? I can get my heart rate up to the same pace doing these as i would an eliptical...

**jAcKeD!!!!** · 04-23-2008, 11:25 AM

yes but 45 mins compared to only 20mins after your heartrate is already up after workout.. elipitcal you get the full movement as you are movin both your arms and legs as to sittin on a bike or arms to your side walking.

**tripmachine** · 04-23-2008, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by RBD85

why do you say fast pace walking and biking is useless?? I can get my heart rate up to the same pace doing these as i would an eliptical...

i agree... my HR gets up to the level I want just as easy walking/biking as anything else.... I can get it up to 180 walking if i wanted but i try to avoid that ;] incline - 10 speed adjustable til appropriate HR is reached....

**Lemonada8** · 04-23-2008, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by iagainsti

A good clean diet high in protein combined with cardio 5x week for 45mins should be golden. If you follow a low carb diet try and keep your cardio low intensity keeping your HR under approx 130bpm as not to burn muscle.

it doesnt have to be under 130, actually its usually above 130... u gotta do some math and find ur zone... its at like 70-85 % u wanna keep ur HR in...

220 - your age = max HR
max HR x .70 = lower end of your range
max HR x .85 = upper end of your range

**OnT** · 04-23-2008, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

it doesnt have to be under 130, actually its usually above 130... u gotta do some math and find ur zone... its at like 70-85 % u wanna keep ur HR in...

220 - your age = max HR
max HR x .70 = lower end of your range
max HR x .85 = upper end of your range

That sounds about right I usually try to keep mine at 140 -155 and I'm 47. I do 20 minutes at upper end HR right after every workout 5 days a week.

Diet is key though cals in and cals out is what makes you lean.

**jstraw428** · 04-23-2008, 12:23 PM

All i do is walk on an incline, and the recumbant bike......and the last competition i was in, i went on stage at 3.5%.......as long as it gets your heart rate up to the level it needs to be at to acheive your goals, your good to go....

**Raw Deal** · 04-23-2008, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by iagainsti

A good clean diet high in protein combined with cardio 5x week for 45mins should be golden. If you follow a low carb diet try and keep your cardio low intensity keeping your HR under approx 130bpm as not to burn muscle.

IMO..thats alot of cardio....i do it 3 times a wk tops Bro, 20 min or you start in on muscle mass........

**OnT** · 04-23-2008, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by jstraw428

All i do is walk on an incline, and the recumbant bike......and the last competition i was in, i went on stage at 3.5%.......as long as it gets your heart rate up to the level it needs to be at to acheive your goals, your good to go....

Dude what's your cutting diet I'd love to try it?

**iagainsti** · 04-23-2008, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Raw Deal

IMO..thats alot of cardio....i do it 3 times a wk tops Bro, 20 min or you start in on muscle mass........

Im 38 and have never really had a great metabolism so I feel I have to work harder then most to stay lean. I usually do 4-5 50 min sessions a week, so to each their own. Again if your running over 130 bpm, once the glycogen is burned from your muscle your body will break down muscle instead of fat as a fuel source and this is especially true on low carb diets. If you just want to burn fat -you can go longer and not interfere with muscle breakdown by low level intensity cardio. Its true HIT cardio burns more cals but the make up of the cals is all wrong.

**Lemonada8** · 04-23-2008, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by iagainsti

Again if your running over 130 bpm, once the glycogen is burned from your muscle your body will break down muscle instead of fat as a fuel source and this is especially true on low carb diets. If you just want to burn fat -you can go longer and not interfere with muscle breakdown by low level intensity cardio. Its true HIT cardio burns more cals but the make up of the cals is all wrong.

this is not true...

with training muscles, they store more glycogen in the muscles and triglycerides than untrained muscles, the FFA's are better mobilized and more accessible to trained muscles, the muscles ability to oxidize fat increases with training, and muscles reliance on fat stores first conserves glycogen during prolonged exercise.

protein is the LAST source of energy that the body uses because
A) it only has 4 cal/ g, fat has 9 cal/g
B) the amine (NH3) group on the amino acid is hard for the body to break apart because they cannot be oxidized, then keto acids are left in the body... basically this whole process is a last ditch for energy...
C) the muscle glycogen that is stored in the muscle is for the fast glycolytic, and the fast oxidative glycolytic muscles... cardio in a HR aobut 60-75% of max HR WILL NOT ACTIVATE these muscles... cardio in that HR will activate the slow oxidative muscles, which will oxidize carbs completely, and oxidize fats...
D) slow twitch muscles use oxidative phosphorlation which will oxidize fat, because thats the only way that fat can be used for energy... oxidation...
E) if you want to get really techinical with it... a .7 of a persons RER is using 100% fat and 0% CHO... but a average RER at rest is about .78... so its hard to get a RER at .7... but a RER at .85 will use roughly 50-50 carbs/fat - so if you are in a carb defecient diet... you will have to use more fat than carbs

so you have to be WAY above a 130 HR to even begin to think about burning the proteins from the muscles... and its going to get the protein from the diet before muscle... the only time it gets protein from the muscles is in times of starvation and extreme malnutrition

**BIGDOGIRISH** · 04-23-2008, 08:45 PM

Whats the verdict on cardio before breakfast????

**RBD85** · 04-23-2008, 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by BIGDOGIRISH

Whats the verdict on cardio before breakfast????

just started doing it last week I will let you know if I waste away into looking like a staving child in a third world country...

I did it a long time ago when I was like 15 before I really had any mass and I lost a lot of weight and got skinny. Also had a buddy that did it and got really lean so i'll see.

**BIGDOGIRISH** · 04-24-2008, 03:33 AM

more views please

**OnT** · 04-24-2008, 07:39 AM

Originally Posted by BIGDOGIRISH

Whats the verdict on cardio before breakfast????

I like the idea, I usually have a protein shake no more than 110 cals and 3 carbs 10 mins before a morning work out. By the time I'm finished lifting, my HR and glucose levels are prime for burning fat so I get on the elliptical for 5-10min and switch to the treadmill to keep my body guessing for another 10 mins or so, total of 20 mins at high end HR. But all that is chet without proper diet. Don't forget to ingest the right amount carbs and protein pwo or you're wasting your time.

**ryanryan** · 04-24-2008, 07:50 AM

if you did cardio before breakfast you'd have no food in your stomach and you've starved yourself for about 8 hours (assuming you sleep properly) so you'd be much more likely to burn muscle than if you did the cardio after you'd got some energy from food.

**OnT** · 04-24-2008, 08:06 AM

Originally Posted by ryanryan

if you did cardio before breakfast you'd have no food in your stomach and you've starved yourself for about 8 hours (assuming you sleep properly) so you'd be much more likely to burn muscle than if you did the cardio after you'd got some energy from food.

Body always burns sugar first - a light shake pre-workout with some carbs is enough for that to happen after you have depleted that by lifting, the body switches over to burning fat so 20mins of cardio at high end HR will not burn enough fat for the body to switch from burning fat to burning muscle.

That said, more than 20 mins and you could be asking for trouble.

**ryanryan** · 04-24-2008, 08:10 AM

yeh and try to keep the whole workout under 45mins so you dont start releasing cortisol

**OnT** · 04-24-2008, 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by ryanryan

yeh and try to keep the whole workout under 45mins so you dont start releasing cortisol

45min is all I do. On days that lifting requires more time, I do 12min of cardio or less; sometimes no cardio at all depending on the time need for lifting. Keep in mind for this to work, you have to be in the gym 5-6 days a week.

**Lemonada8** · 04-24-2008, 10:09 AM

if you work out in the morning, dont be scared to get some good carbs.... cause you will burn them off hella quick when u lift then do cardio... so i'd advise eat before cardio... at least something w/ some carbs..
cause u need carbs to help fuel lypolysis...

**RBD85** · 04-24-2008, 10:22 AM

I agree if you do workout in the morning you need to eat before you lift but I dont believe its the same for morning cardio..

**iagainsti** · 04-24-2008, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

this is not true...

with training muscles, they store more glycogen in the muscles and triglycerides than untrained muscles, the FFA's are better mobilized and more accessible to trained muscles, the muscles ability to oxidize fat increases with training, and muscles reliance on fat stores first conserves glycogen during prolonged exercise.

protein is the LAST source of energy that the body uses because
A) it only has 4 cal/ g, fat has 9 cal/g
B) the amine (NH3) group on the amino acid is hard for the body to break apart because they cannot be oxidized, then keto acids are left in the body... basically this whole process is a last ditch for energy...
C) the muscle glycogen that is stored in the muscle is for the fast glycolytic, and the fast oxidative glycolytic muscles... cardio in a HR aobut 60-75% of max HR WILL NOT ACTIVATE these muscles... cardio in that HR will activate the slow oxidative muscles, which will oxidize carbs completely, and oxidize fats...
D) slow twitch muscles use oxidative phosphorlation which will oxidize fat, because thats the only way that fat can be used for energy... oxidation...
E) if you want to get really techinical with it... a .7 of a persons RER is using 100% fat and 0% CHO... but a average RER at rest is about .78... so its hard to get a RER at .7... but a RER at .85 will use roughly 50-50 carbs/fat - so if you are in a carb defecient diet... you will have to use more fat than carbs

so you have to be WAY above a 130 HR to even begin to think about burning the proteins from the muscles... and its going to get the protein from the diet before muscle... the only time it gets protein from the muscles is in times of starvation and extreme malnutrition

I agree with you to a point. We 1st need to clarify some things for the sake of arguement. Im a firm believer in that the human body has a "set point" for BF% levels. This set point is a survival mechanism and everybodies will be different. With strict diet and excercise mine appears to be about 15%. I can readily shed fat with a proper diet and any type of cardio and exercise up this point as long as I stay consistant. I strive for around 12% and its very very difficult for me to achieve. 12% may seem high for most people but I feel I look very good at this level and since I dont compete, I dont feel I need to go any lower.

Now since this is a site dedicated to bodybuiding I approached my original answer towards the bodybuilding athlete trying to get beyond their bodies setpoint bf%. You stated "the only time it gets protein from the muscles is in times of starvation and extreme malnutrition." Well the body will sense lower then extreme bodyfat (past the setpoint) and since the body doesnt care if you have six pack abs and uses fat as a means of survival it will do exactly that-hoard fat stores and breakdown muscle for fuel. Since most bodybuilders run some sort of low carb diet and want to get past their setpoint.

I'm gonna steal a quote from Dave Palumbo whom I feel has some wacky ideas reguarding AAS usage, but feel is the man concerning diet and nutrition.
"High Intensity Cardio -While it's true that HIT cardio may burn more calories, the quality of the calories is all wrong. When intesity level increases heart rate to over 70% of max (around 120-140 bpm) the body stops using fat and starts using carbs as a fuel source. In the absence of carbs (usual precontest diet) the body will turn lean muscle tissue into glucose and use that for energy. The whole purpose of doing cardio for the physique athlete is to maximize fat burning; not to lose lean muscle tissue."

Sorry this is so long winded but any person sitting at 30% BF will lose fat thru any means of excercise and diet. Its the final couple of percentage points that can get a little tricky.

**Lemonada8** · 04-24-2008, 10:45 AM

can u send me a link from the dave palumbo thing? i'm kinda interested in reading that...
its just hard for me to think that the body will use its own tissue before using food in the diet....

and ok the whole set point does make sense... so... ditto on most

**iagainsti** · 04-24-2008, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

can u send me a link from the dave palumbo thing? i'm kinda interested in reading that...
its just hard for me to think that the body will use its own tissue before using food in the diet....

and ok the whole set point does make sense... so... ditto on most

I read his monthly articles in Muscular Development magizine so no link. MD does have a discussion board of its own and I know he posts alot on there but I dont freq their board too often. I know alot of top tier professional bodybuilders are jumping on his bandwagon. Again his AAS theory seems wack to me but the man knows his shit with the human body and diet. If you dont read MD I would suggest it-its a very pro AAS mag with top notch pro advice.

**iagainsti** · 04-24-2008, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

can u send me a link from the dave palumbo thing? i'm kinda interested in reading that...
its just hard for me to think that the body will use its own tissue before using food in the diet....

and ok the whole set point does make sense... so... ditto on most

I read his monthly articles in Muscular Development magizine so no link. MD does have a discussion board of its own and I know he posts alot on there but I dont freq their board too often. I know alot of top tier professional bodybuilders are jumping on his bandwagon. Again his AAS theory seems wack to me but the man knows his shit with the human body and diet. If you dont read MD I would suggest it-its a very pro AAS mag with top notch pro advice.