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Milk Thistle is a liver protectant.. you take it during a cycle.
Don't advise people to take it after a cycle that is pointless.
There are Liver Purifiers and Liver Protectants.
Milk Thistle is a protectant! take it during your cycle.
After your PCT is finished...then you can switch to purifiers.
The reason being is nolvadex affects the liver as well so keep
taking it until PCT is completed.
Then you switch to a Liver Purifier.
So what's a liver purifier??
it helps the regeneration of impaired liver cells as well as detoxifying hepatic toxin, improving liver functioning.Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbanzo Dude
look for something that will secrete bile check the health store... i use boldocynara
and also drink dandelion root coffee or tea.
dandelion, burdock, artichoke are some i can think of off hand...you will see some
products with milk thistle in it, that is fine..but it shouldn't be used as the primary
source for cleansing the liver..use that for protecting.
milk thistle also help regenerate the liver as well thats why in germany they use it for cirrosis so takin while on cycle is the best but takin it after can be just as effective but you are right in the sense of taking for cycle and pct but there are studies that use after a load on the liver its effectiveness is very good... dont get me wrong takin it the whole time is the best way
yes the whole time you can use it but it is primarily a protector...when you want to clean
the liver you will come across other products that work with milk thistle to purify.
As dandelion is a great purifier but not as good of a protector...so they will mix
the dandelion with the milk thistle.
So i figure the best way to do it..is keep the protector Milk Thistle...throughout the cycle...
then after you can continue the milk thistle but throw in some burduck and dandelion
as well.
The products you buy will probably have 3 or 4 herbs this is the best way to go..
just like how you stack juice..you can stack herbs.
This is what i use...and I'm not on a cycle yet..lol!
BOLDOCYNARA FROM A. VOGEL A HERBAL FORMULATION FOR OPTIMUM DIGESTION.
The effects of today's diet from trans fats, fried foods, pollutants, and additives wreak havoc on our liver and may contribute to some digestive concerns. In Boldocynara Artichoke, Milk thistle, Dandelion and others work to help detoxify the liver and stimulate the production of bile, thereby improving digestion. Particularly useful for those concerned with liver or gall bladder disorders, Boldocynara has as well been helpful in relieving nausea and loss of appetite. [LIQUID]
EACH ML CONTAINS:
Fresh Organic Artichoke herb 0.467ml
Milk Thistle fruit 0.319ml
Fresh wild dandelion root & herb 0.12ml
Boldo leaf 0.07ml
Fresh organic Peppermint leaf 0.03ml
Alcohol content = 61%
It is in a tincture...you take 10-15 drops ...salivate and swallow in a small amount of water.
Again I would use this after the cycle is over..this is more in the detox category...rather than protective.
One thing i must tell you about herbs. You do not keep taking them. You use it
for the term and be done with it.
Don't train your body to rely on these things.
I have been unable to find any scientific or medical journal/article that actually proves that milk thistle helps. Most publications come to a conclusion that milk thistle does not help liver function. The few publications that have viewed milk thistle favorably has stated that at best it may help liver function when taken in large dosages over prolonged (years) periods of time. Hence, taking it during a cycle will do absolutely nothing.
If you have any credible scientific or medical evidence that states otherwise I would love to read it. Every single doctor I have asked about this, and the countless number of searches I have done on my school's medical library (and the access to we have to almost every other medical publication online) has yielded absolutely no evidence to support milk thistle does anything for your liver.
Take when on any cycle or just an oral.. ? and how many mgs of it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Deen54
my blood work never reflected what milk thistle could do.
What you think of this study buddy?http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0504003425.htm
who me?Quote:
Originally Posted by goose4
No,LOL.Clinical efficacy of milk thistle is not clearly established. Interpretation of the evidence is hampered by poor study methods and/or poor quality of reporting in publications.so it is pushed by the boards and crooks like roberts the `sup industry` down are throats.At best,is associated with few, and generally minor, adverse effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by lex57
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by goose4
oh :wg:
I have to agree, there are no clinical studies that prove the efficacy of milk thistle, the only studies that say milk thistle MAY help are done by the companies and their affilitates. But there are products on the market that do cleanse/protect the liver, and most of these can be found in your diet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nstart
see if your school may have this book, Pharmacology, kee, hayes, mcquiston, copyright 2006.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nstart
"Milk Thistle (Silybum marianum)
This herbal extract has the remarkable ability to prevent damage to liver cells and stimulate regeneration of liver cells. These findings have been validated by research. Milk thistle is widely used in Europe to treat hepatitis, cirrhosis, and fatty liver associated with drugs and alcohol. Pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics are not known." p.172
then table9-2 p.178
"Milk thistle
class I herb
seeds of dried flowers
actions and uses: increased regeneration of liver cells; increases antioxidant activity uses: liver disease (hepatitis) choleocystitis, psoriasis.
dosage: cap/tab: initially 500 mg divided in 3 doses for 6-8 weeks. with improvement: 120-240 mg/day in 3 doses; may take 7-10 days for effect; 4-8 weeks if liver diseased with alcohol.
interactions: avoid use in preganacy,lactation, in children. herb does not reverse cirrhotic liver changes but disease may slow with increased quality of life.
precautions: none known
side/adverse affects: nausea vomiting, and menstrual changes."
and i can assure you this has nothing to do with any companies or affiliates.
and could you post some things related to this,"Most publications come to a conclusion that milk thistle does not help liver function."
i have seen it said it that there is no evidence to support for sure, but i have not seen it said that milk thistle does not help liver function for sure......so if you could i would like to read that. i have access to many publications also so author and page number would do.
Did you come to this conclusion via actual study based results, or mere popular theory based on reputation? If the former, please cite these studies as I've performed rather exhaustive multi-journal searches that returned only anecdotal or at best peripheral evidentiary support. If the latter, then you might want to downgrade it from a protectant to a cleanser, which is its historical property since ancient Greece…and even this goes unproven with regard to aas use.Quote:
Originally Posted by Deen54
Thus, I’m in agreement with Goose, Nstart and Lat there are plenty of studies but no valid findings.
-----------------
Lex,
Your AHRQ info (http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/epcsums/milktsum.htm) has a link at the end that cites an evidence report which, and I quote concluded:
Quote:
Conclusions. Milk thistle's efficacy is not established. Published evidence is clouded by poor design and reporting. Possible benefit has been shown most frequently, but inconsistently, for aminotransferases, but laboratory tests are the most common outcome measure studied. Survival and other clinical outcomes have been studied less, with mixed results. Future research should include definition of multifactorial mechanisms of action, well-designed clinical trials, and clarification of adverse effects.
Milk Thistle: Effects on Liver Disease and Cirrhosis and Clinical Adverse Effects http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/bv...er.29128<br />
ok but do you dismiss the entire article because of this? because here is another quote from that very article:Quote:
Originally Posted by magic32
Findings
Mechanisms of Action
Evidence exists that milk thistle may be hepatoprotective through a number of mechanisms: antioxidant activity, toxin blockade at the membrane level, enhanced protein synthesis, antifibriotic activity, and possible anti-inflammatory or immunomodulating effects.
i was on meds that i had to get blood work done monthly. I added milk thistle and never say any changes. Its over rated on the boards IMO
Take 750 mg before you drink, and the hangover is reduced alot. So it has to do something good...
basically i walked into this health store and i know a guy in there that has his PHD.
he explained to me the difference. He said Milk thistle will help protect your liver
Then he said to cleanse the liver to take dandelion...and he
suggested i take the boldocynara...so i bought it and i noticed the difference.
Hey sometimes i eat and my body feels sluggish i take this stuff and everything
feels better my appetite, digestion...it's not a placebo I am feeling.
I also tried the dandelion root tea and when i am hung over and drink this stuff.
I feel great plus i have read some liver detox books and they recommend it.
I am 37 and went to my doctor i have done juice in my 20's ..anadrol, dball. sus, omnadren, test cyp, deca
oct 2007 he said my liver is in great shape. I told him... i drink alot you sure?
he said my liver assays are normal.
So i am sticking to what works for me.
i will say nothing is a miracle cure..you have to give things time..there are no overnight
miracles. But give it a chance and stay with it.
A little protection is better than none.
Quote:
Originally Posted by goose4
MINE NEITHER BUT I TAKE IT ANWAY JUST IN CASE MY LIVER VAJUES ARE HIGHER. I USE 9 X 175MG CAPSULES
i've only ever took it once and it gave me the shits lol suppose it was cleaning me out
And therein lies the problem!Quote:
Originally Posted by lex57
How can a sole source hold two diametrically opposing truths to be self-evident? In other words, if single study can't manage cohesiveness, much less validity, how can multiple ones POSSIBLY do so? Based on the abundance of studies run, there should be a VAST and SOLID body of clinical evidence to support or oppose its perceived properties, but there isn't. Congruently, even if it works well for environmental and normally consumed impurities/toxins, we still cannot simply infer the same effect with regard to pharmaceutical manufactured drugs.
FOR THE RECORD:
I'M A PROPONENT OF MT AND ON IT RIGHT NOW, BUT I DON'T WANT PEOPLE BELIEVING UNSUBSTANTIATED PROPAGANDA THAT IMPLIES PROTECTION, WHEN AT BEST THEY'RE ONLY RECEIVING A GENTLE CLEANSING!!!
[QUOTE=magic32;3998170]And therein lies the problem!
How can a sole source hold two diametrically opposing truths to be self-evident? In other words, if single study can't manage cohesiveness, much less validity, how can multiple ones POSSIBLY do so? Based on the abundance of studies run, there should be a VAST and SOLID body of clinical evidence to support or oppose its perceived properties, but there isn't. Congruently, even if it works well for environmental and normally consumed impurities/toxins, we still cannot simply infer the same effect with regard to pharmaceutical manufactured drugs.
:lol::lol
This study doesnt say whether or not it used just plain old milk thistle or the standardized extract? Their is a type of milk thistle, "Maximum milk thistle", it is, how should I say, more bioavailable than your regular standardized milk thistle by 8 to 10 times. Taking 2 caps of maximum milk thistle 3 times aday is equivalent of taking 20 caps 3 times a day of standardized. I take this product as I have hep c from a blood tranfusion I had to have when I was having surgery back in the early 80s before they knew to check blood donors for aids and hepc. My liver enzymes were always high, in the 100s. After taking max MT for several months, my enzymes were still a little high, but not near what they were before. I have bloodwork done every 6 months and on several occasions, my levels were within normal range. Max MT is a little more spendy, but worth every penny.Quote:
Originally Posted by goose4
Every single one uses the word "may" or they state there is no definitive conclusion. Your links are just like many other articles. There are absolutely no indisputable findings that milk thistle helps the liver.Quote:
Originally Posted by lex57
Just for future reference, I prefer articles or journals that were accepted by well established medical or scientific publications.
That is one text book that states that. How are you sure the author is correct? There is so much information out there that contradicts this.Quote:
Originally Posted by lex57
How would you like to see these publishings? They are all either pdf files or articles that cannot be replicated. If you have access to a school's medical library (on the computer) just search for the term "Milk thistle" and you'll find tons of articles showing no benefit.
if there are tons will you show me one that states there is for sure no benefit ?thanks. if there are tons i am sure you can find some somewhere that can be replicated. and how are you so sure that the authors are correct? just wondering. and maybe you should tell the poster dn1024 to stop the milk thistle. i am sure he will listen to you also because what you have read and cannot show anyone else. that is rather conveniant. and how would the article from the department of health and human services not be "accepted by well established medical or scientific publications" i guess "nstart" is a scientific publication. no he is a guy with an opinion just like me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nstart
and there are no definitive conclusions or indidputible findings that milk thistle does not help the liver.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nstart
and here is a list of supps you take daily:
Yes, Here is my list:
Daily Supplements That I have been taking for more then a year:
Green Source Dietary Supplement Multivitamin
Calcium Citrate (calcium + vitamin D, Magnesium, Zinc) - 500mg
Flax Oil - 3000mg
***** 3 Fish Oil - 1000mg
CoQ-10 - 100mg
CarniPure L-Carnitine - 500mg
DHEA - 50mg
Alpha-Lipoic acid – 300mg
Carnosine – 100mg
Green Tea Extract – 500mg
L-Arginine - 500mg
Proscar/Propecia - 1mg
Before Bed (I have been on this for years):
Melatonin - 3mg
Unisom Sleep Gels - 50mg
Tylenol PM Simply Sleep - 25mg
and you wanna talk about milk thistle!!!!? ok lets dog milk thistle but half of the stuff you take here is no more medically proven or disproven than milk thistle but you still take it....... but i am sure you dont take all this for some reason or another now.:aajack:
Wow lex57, people on here do call you an asshole, and for a while I didn't see a reason but I can clearly see it now.
You bring in the supplements I take to just attack me. Really lame if you ask me. This has absolutely nothing to do with this thread what so ever.
I am going to tell you once more how to find this information. Log into your school's online resource catalog and go to the medical section. Then search for the phrase "milk thistle" and read a couple of articles. Better yet, just read the conclusion if you want. It is as simple as that. I don't have a way to extract to the articles and send them to you. Most are read only files that cannot even be printed.
I can't deal with people like you. Instead of trying to discuss this maturely, you bring in what supplements I take to try and discredit me and change this from the topic of milk thistle to the supplements I take. I am not a doctor nor do I claim to be one. I am simply reiterating what the articles I have read state. If you decide not to believe this, then by all means continue on.
I like beer
milk thistle liquid...
any suggestions on dosage ?
good postQuote:
Originally Posted by Nstart
glad someone came in and put this broscience spread in this thread to an end..
if you wanna waste your money on milk thistle for your cycle because company X or whatever says it will help detox your liver, go ahead.
This is all big business. Medical research has shown that Milk Thistle
improves many areas but they say there is not enough research to conclude if it works
or not.
So i have concluded that they don't want to say for fear that people will resort
to herbs and millions of dollars will be lost because the pharmaceutical companies
would love to discredit all herbs.
So they can have all of us fools hooked on pharmics.
strong conspiracy........................Quote:
Originally Posted by Deen54
wow are you gonna cry because i am pointing out the truth? so now i am an asshole because of something that you posted and i merely copy and pasted, how is it attacking you to copy a post you made? and i bring in the supps you take once again because they are no more proven or disproven than MT. i thought i made that clear. no personal attack just facts that you posted. your defense mechanisms a weak bro. but as i figured you cannot produce one thing to back up your claims. but i expect as much from you. with all of the tons of things you say at your schools medical library but none exists on the internet huh? please until you post something relevant that backs it up give us all a break. wow could you state anything more obvious that i am an asshole? i dont care if i am a prick. you cant deal with people like me because i am not a sheep. anyone with any sense or knowledge reading this thread knows that if what you say is correct then you can find some scientific proof to back it up on the net. hell i could probably find proof that aliens exist. so please, you are only amusing me. i know you are still mad at me because i caught you lying about your cylcle history when you first started out here, and i wasnt gonna bring it up, but i will , and your vast knowledge of 6 months of aas use is well beyond my roughly 15 years, but i will not trivialize this with facts, we'll just listen to you. can you give me more advice please? and now i will ask for the third time in this post will you please post some facts. i know the internet is only a few pages but you should be able to find something. oh and how come you never answer one question i ask you? nevermind i know why...........:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nstart
I done just this last night and it worked a treat. So much so i was up after 5-6 hours sleep, had a light breakfast and went to train my back and traps. Felt great toQuote:
Originally Posted by g0dsend
I regularly take Dandelion root 3 x per day, but i think it was the ammount i used prior to the drink that worked.