Test Prop or Cypionate cycle

**BBall6** · 07-16-2008, 11:10 AM

Stats:
6'3" 210 14% BF 26 yrs old
Have been working out for 12+ yrs, played college football from 2000 - 2004 and am planning a cycle to do in about 2 months.

Diet has been fairly clean and very consistent for the past 4-5 months and I have been taking protein, vitamins, fish oil, green tea, glucosamine, ZMA, BCAA's, creatine etc. for the past several months. I have also tried PSlin, Powerfull and some other supplements.

Current training is : Monday-chest/tris, tues: back/bis, wed

ff, thurs: shoulders/tris, fri: legs/bis
Abs 3 times a week, calves when I don't play basketball that night.

I want to have all my ducks in a row before starting this.

I would like to do an 8-12 week cycle 200 mg twice per week
PCT would be:
Weeks 1-4: Post Cycle Support, ZMA
Weeks 3-5: Lean Xtreme
Weeks 4-7: 6-oxo and active Xtreme

Considering the above PCT how much and when should I use Nolvadex as I understand that that has its own sides too and does no good to take more than what is needed. 10 - 20mg per day starting a week before the end of the cycle?

I plan to keep a very clean diet as my goals for the cycle are to gain very lean maintainable muscle/strength and long term goal is to get back down to the 10% BF range while continuing to build muscle.

I am definitely open to suggestions and modifications for both the actual cycle and PCT. This is just what I found through a few months of searching to be one of the safer 1st cycles to start with to see how my body reacts.

When I do start the cycle, I will do a weekly log for anyone who is interested and for personal motivational purposes.

I will have a buddy doing this same cycle so it should help to keep each other on track during this, especially during the PCT when we try to keep our gains.

Thanks in advance for any advice,

John

**duggadoo** · 07-16-2008, 11:22 AM

pct needs alot of work no over the counter supp is sufficient for a pct with aas.... you need a SERM and an AI research abit and come bck with a good planned pct but test cyp for 10-12 weeks at 400mgs a week would be a good beginners cycle

**one8nine** · 07-16-2008, 11:26 AM

you look like you are on great track for a cycle
prop is shot every day, you say you want twice a week
you need test cyp, or enanthate
i recomend enanthate personally

i recomend this as a cycle outline
weeks
1-10 test e 2x wk, 250mg each shot
1-12 letro .25mg ed/eod
13-16 nolva 20-40mg ed
13-16 proviron 50mg ed

**BBall6** · 07-16-2008, 11:45 AM

Thanks guys,

If I change up the PCT to one8nine's suggestion, would any of the other OTC products I mentioned even be worth taking? I still plan to take the vitamins, fish oil, glucosamine, green tea etc. unless there is something specifically I shouldn't take while I'm on cycle.

I am also getting a blood test next month too so I can have a pre-cycle baseline to compare to sometime after the PCT is done.

**XD40** · 07-16-2008, 11:53 AM

You are miles ahead of all the other new guys!!! you will not need to add thoes OTC suppliments with the pct one8nine lined out for you...continue to research as you near your cycle and you will have great success with this cycle bro...

**JiGGaMaN** · 07-16-2008, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by BBall6

Thanks guys,

If I change up the PCT to one8nine's suggestion, would any of the other OTC products I mentioned even be worth taking? I still plan to take the vitamins, fish oil, glucosamine, green tea etc. unless there is something specifically I shouldn't take while I'm on cycle.

I am also getting a blood test next month too so I can have a pre-cycle baseline to compare to sometime after the PCT is done.

No, buy food.

**Lemonada8** · 07-16-2008, 01:05 PM

the only thing you really should take thats OTC is supps for your diet, like protein and multivit....

you want to avoid creatine because that will help you hold extra water and the test itself will do that...

as for PCT, a simple test cycle, you can get away with a simple nolva pct.. for 4 weeks at 40/20/20/20 mg ed, (so for week 1 its 40mg ED, week 2 20 mg ed, etc)

as for which test to use... some recommend the longer esters cause u dont have to shoot as much, but the downside of that is that you dont feel any effects untill week 5-6... prop is felt within 1 week most of the time, and i know from my experience, that i dotn wanna be shooting for 6 week sbefore i feel some sort of a kick.... JMO...

esp if u are wanting to cut also, prop is the best test to cut w/... as long as your diet is good (that is the big key part), you can cut down while gaingin some good size and strength... the only bad thing about prop is you have to shoot ED...

as for your workout, since you are goin on cycle, i'd look into doin a 3 day split instead of what you have... but if it works for you, go for it, just knw that your recovery will be much better on cycle, which allows you to work them out 2x a week....

unless you are goin for a pure bulk, working the main bodyparts 1x a week isnt goin to cut you up or much, you will get some size, but as for getting down to 10%BF, it would be very hard to do tthat...

also i'd incorporate some cardio in the morning, on a empty stomach becasue that will A) stretch you out and b)burn some good calories before you eat anyting which will help you drop that bf.... also, when you do your cardio, make sure your HR isabout 65-75% of ur max HR... thatwill be mroe in a fat burning zone.... you can check out the workout forum for any questions you have about that...

best of luck and happy growing

**XD40** · 07-16-2008, 01:12 PM

Great advice lemonada !!!

**BBall6** · 07-16-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by XD40

You are miles ahead of all the other new guys!!! you will not need to add thoes OTC suppliments with the pct one8nine lined out for you...continue to research as you near your cycle and you will have great success with this cycle bro...

Thanks, I have been trolling through threads and logs for the past few months now and it seems like the more I learn the more questions I have. I just went ahead and decided to go ahead and register and see if I could start to put together a good complete 1st cycle based on what i have learned so far and have it fine tuned by you guys before beginning it so there shouldn't be any major surprises.

**BBall6** · 07-16-2008, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

the only thing you really should take thats OTC is supps for your diet, like protein and multivit....

you want to avoid creatine because that will help you hold extra water and the test itself will do that...

as for PCT, a simple test cycle, you can get away with a simple nolva pct.. for 4 weeks at 40/20/20/20 mg ed, (so for week 1 its 40mg ED, week 2 20 mg ed, etc)

as for which test to use... some recommend the longer esters cause u dont have to shoot as much, but the downside of that is that you dont feel any effects untill week 5-6... prop is felt within 1 week most of the time, and i know from my experience, that i dotn wanna be shooting for 6 week sbefore i feel some sort of a kick.... JMO...

esp if u are wanting to cut also, prop is the best test to cut w/... as long as your diet is good (that is the big key part), you can cut down while gaingin some good size and strength... the only bad thing about prop is you have to shoot ED...

as for your workout, since you are goin on cycle, i'd look into doin a 3 day split instead of what you have... but if it works for you, go for it, just knw that your recovery will be much better on cycle, which allows you to work them out 2x a week....

unless you are goin for a pure bulk, working the main bodyparts 1x a week isnt goin to cut you up or much, you will get some size, but as for getting down to 10%BF, it would be very hard to do tthat...

also i'd incorporate some cardio in the morning, on a empty stomach becasue that will A) stretch you out and b)burn some good calories before you eat anyting which will help you drop that bf.... also, when you do your cardio, make sure your HR isabout 65-75% of ur max HR... thatwill be mroe in a fat burning zone.... you can check out the workout forum for any questions you have about that...

best of luck and happy growing

Thanks, I left creatine out of the listed on cycle supplements b/c I had read several places what you are telling me.

As far as the PCT is concerned, I would like to have everything on hand just in case, but if the nolva is likely to be sufficient for a test only cycle I might go that route. From what I've read, overdoing a PCT isn't beneficial. Shouldn't I still take the letro throughout most of the cycle to help keep away water retention?

How viscous is the prop? My buddy has done a deca cycle before and acted like it was some pretty thick ****. I don't think I would have a problem shooting everyday if it would go through a smaller needle, but he acted like he needed some pretty serious hardware to get the deca job done and said he had to push so hard on the syringe that he thought it would explode. Would the common 23awg 1.5" do it for the gluts and 1" 25 awg for anywhere else or would I need something larger? I've read using an 18 - 20 awg to draw from helps (I think this is what he was shooting with). Also how sore does this make most people. Can you shoot the same place every 4 days or so?

I don't have a problem working everything twice a week while on cycle, it just seems a little to frequent for my muscles to get a complete workout right now. Should I keep the 3 day split going after the cycle as well and for how long?

Would cardio in the evening be detrimental to my success as I love playing basketball and when I used to play about 5 times a week, I was at my leanest 10-11% but was only about 190 lbs? I do weights in the afternoon if that helps answer my question.

**Lemonada8** · 07-16-2008, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by BBall6

Thanks, I left creatine out of the listed on cycle supplements b/c I had read several places what you are telling me.

As far as the PCT is concerned, I would like to have everything on hand just in case, but if the nolva is likely to be sufficient for a test only cycle I might go that route. From what I've read, overdoing a PCT isn't beneficial. Shouldn't I still take the letro throughout most of the cycle to help keep away water retention? you should only take letro if you are worried about gyno..... if you do prop you wont get much water retention, besides its ur diet anyways but people take it to keep water retention down but thats for long esters (enth, cyp)

How viscous is the prop? My buddy has done a deca cycle before and acted like it was some pretty thick ****. I don't think I would have a problem shooting everyday if it would go through a smaller needle, but he acted like he needed some pretty serious hardware to get the deca job done and said he had to push so hard on the syringe that he thought it would explode. Would the common 23awg 1.5" do it for the gluts and 1" 25 awg for anywhere else or would I need something larger? I've read using an 18 - 20 awg to draw from helps (I think this is what he was shooting with). Also how sore does this make most people. Can you shoot the same place every 4 days or so? i currently am on a test prop cycle, i homebrewed it with grapeseed oil and i use a 25g 1" needle.... and i have zero pain, and i shoot my left delt, bi, chest, both quads for my injection sites..... i have also shot calves, tri's and glutes... glutes is the worst IMO... and ishoot ED

I don't have a problem working everything twice a week while on cycle, it just seems a little to frequent for my muscles to get a complete workout right now. Should I keep the 3 day split going after the cycle as well and for how long? yeah, you keep lifting but once your muslces get in shape at the new stregnth fromt he test, it will be easier to maintain it.... thats when people recommend taking creatine it will help keep your muscles bloated like they were on cycle... because the test help you build that muscle, and now u have to maintain it w/ diet and good working out... so you want to keep working out hard... and do that the best way u can...

Would cardio in the evening be detrimental to my success as I love playing basketball and when I used to play about 5 times a week, I was at my leanest 10-11% but was only about 190 lbs? I do weights in the afternoon if that helps answer my questionyeah, do them and then on days u dont, do regular cardio.....

in bold above... u got the basics

**BBall6** · 07-16-2008, 02:21 PM

Thanks,

I know you said prop would be the best for lean gains/cutting, but how much different would the results be doing Enanthate ? How about taking letro with that?

Just trying to weigh the options and possibly give myself more time in between shots on my 1st cycle until I know the areas that work best for me if Enanthate is a suitable alternative for my goals.

**Jfew44** · 07-16-2008, 02:23 PM

There's really no need to shoot in the same spot more than once a week. If you are doing test prop you def want to have 4 or more inj sites. My favs are delts and quads. I use a 1" needle as well. I agree with Lemonada, I really hate glute shots. I can't seem to twist around enough to do it properly. Good luck with whatever you decide

**Lemonada8** · 07-16-2008, 09:04 PM

yeah, but your diet has to be alot better... but still attainable w/ test enth...

**Rock-Solid** · 07-16-2008, 09:06 PM

Shoots in the quad are most effective, gults and shoulders are good also!

**BBall6** · 07-17-2008, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Lemonada8

yeah, but your diet has to be alot better... but still attainable w/ test enth...

I really think I am leaning towards something that only needs to be done twice a week just to be able to have more time getting acquainted with the injecting.

Something I didn't mention or anyone else is using HCG . Will I rebound ok with just nolva, creatine and dieting or should I take anything to jump start my own test?

I've also seen people using clen to help maintain gains? Should I be interested in this or is it not necessary with my cycle?

**BBall6** · 07-17-2008, 03:25 PM

Just looked at one8nine's original post again and suggested proviron and it is supposed to help burn fat and increase natty test so I will see if I can get my hands on some of that unless HCG or clen or something else may be better, but the proviron seems to be in line with my goals.

**BBall6** · 08-09-2008, 11:14 AM

Update:

They guy I'm planning on getting my gear from is really persuading me to do a prop cycle which seems to be the recommended thing on here and more in line with my goals if I can handle the ED dosing.

Here is my question. If I go out of town on the weekend will I need to take everthing with me to be sure to dose everyday or would a dose friday afternoon and another dose sunday night screw up my blood levels for the cycle?

Should I do a larger dose on Fri to keep more in my system on sunday since it has a 3 day half life and then a larger dose on sunday to jump start myself for the week?

Also, he said he probably can't get proviron so is there something else you reccomend I take in addition to the nolva to get my natty test back up and maintain my gains?

Would 12 weeks still be a good cycle on prop or should I cut back to 8-9 since I don't have the 5 wk load up phase where I don't notice much gains on something like enth?

Thanks

**one8nine** · 08-09-2008, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by BBall6

Update:

They guy I'm planning on getting my gear from is really persuading me to do a prop cycle which seems to be the recommended thing on here and more in line with my goals if I can handle the ED dosing.

Here is my question. If I go out of town on the weekend will I need to take everthing with me to be sure to dose everyday or would a dose friday afternoon and another dose sunday night screw up my blood levels for the cycle?

Should I do a larger dose on Fri to keep more in my system on sunday since it has a 3 day half life and then a larger dose on sunday to jump start myself for the week?

Also, he said he probably can't get proviron so is there something else you reccomend I take in addition to the nolva to get my natty test back up and maintain my gains?

Would 12 weeks still be a good cycle on prop or should I cut back to 8-9 since I don't have the 5 wk load up phase where I don't notice much gains on something like enth?

Thanks

if you hhaaavvee to then just skip a day dont make it a habit though
can you deal with ed injects??
aromasin 50mg clomid 25mg instead

**football3355** · 08-09-2008, 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by XD40

You are miles ahead of all the other new guys!!! you will not need to add thoes OTC suppliments with the pct one8nine lined out for you...continue to research as you near your cycle and you will have great success with this cycle bro...

I agree...those OTC supps are dust in the wind compared to nolva or clomid....especially when using aas. Also, even if you did use a light cycle for a first time like I am soon, I would NEVER trust "GNC" (OTC) buyable products instead of the real SERMS or AI's. But thats just me........

**BBall6** · 08-10-2008, 12:50 PM

Thanks for sticking with me guys with all these questions. I'm just trying to make sure there are no surprises along the way.

As far as the injections go, I'm confident I can do the gluts and quads on my own, but the delts might be a little bit of a concern to me. I've read the injection guides and was wondering how important it is to stretch the skin with the other hand and how much support does the suringe need? Will it stay put long enough to draw back on the plunger and then switch around to administer it?

For you guys that do ED injections, do you do them yourself or have someone inject for you? That will probably be one of my largest deciding factors.

**one8nine** · 08-10-2008, 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by BBall6

Thanks for sticking with me guys with all these questions. I'm just trying to make sure there are no surprises along the way.

As far as the injections go, I'm confident I can do the gluts and quads on my own, but the delts might be a little bit of a concern to me. I've read the injection guides and was wondering how important it is to stretch the skin with the other hand and how much support does the suringe need? Will it stay put long enough to draw back on the plunger and then switch around to administer it?

For you guys that do ED injections, do you do them yourself or have someone inject for you? That will probably be one of my largest deciding factors.

i do them myself
i dont take them seriously though
take a shower
swab the vial
swab my skin
draw, switch needle
aim at the general area
shoot

i dont even aspirate personally. and if you got 1.5" of needle in your muscle it will hold the syringe up with no hands

**BBall6** · 08-12-2008, 03:19 PM

Well, now that I got a good plan laid out, it turns out that both of the people that I thought could get me something legit are coming up empty handed. So looks like I will stay natty for a while as I have no problem being patient in order to make sure I get some legit gear and to stay out of trouble from the law (don't need to do anything desperate).

I'm posting a new 3-4 day split routine in the workout section that I am planning on switching to for a while if anyone wants to help critique that.
Here is the link:
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...67#post4129067

**BBall6** · 08-15-2008, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by one8nine

if you hhaaavvee to then just skip a day dont make it a habit though
can you deal with ed injects??
aromasin 50mg clomid 25mg instead

My buddy is still waiting to talk to another couple of guys he knows, so I'm not out yet, but while that is going on I am trying to get together all of my PCT so I will have it whenever I do get some gear.

Here is what I can get from a research lab that was recommended to me by my friend:

Anastrozole - arimidex
Letrozole
Tamoxifen - nolva
Toremifene

If he can get me test - e, I think that would be my 1st choice and it sounds like it would be a good idea to take Letro .25 ED/EOD during the cycle to help keep out water retention etc.

Clomid is back-ordered, but if I get nolva for pct should I use arimidex with it if I can't get aromisin? I've been reading a lot about the different compounds and see the benefit of aromisin and how well it works with nolva and how it doesn't run the risk or having a rebound, but if I can't get it, should I use arimidex and how much for how long?

Thanks