Nolvadex CAN be use with 19nors...

[roid_rage]

Well, again, sorry if I post info from other forum, but I happen to have great admiration for William Llewellyn, and this is what he said about Nolvadex and 19nors.


Nolvadex & Progesterone

"Nolvadex is usually useful for gyno regardless, as progesterone and estrogen both play synergistic roles here, and estrogen is necessary for progesterone to impart notable cell growth. If you antagonize estrogenic stimulation with nolvadex, it is usually sufficient to mitigate gyno even when being exacerbated by progestational steroids."

Well, lots of ppl keep repiting thins without even knowing what their talking about, I've asked several times 'cause I know loooots of ppl who are taking deca and using nolva and not getting any gyno or worsting existing gyno... (though there may be lots of ppl who do get it worse)

What do you guys have to say about that opinion? (not putting the link so ppl dont think I'm mkt william's site.)

[jstraw428]

It is not guaranteed to give you gyno or worsen existing gyno by taking Nolva and a 19-nor.......most of us are saying, that it increases the chances that gyno could appear from the combination of these two.....

Some people dont develop gyno, no matter what they take.....they are the lucky ones.....

[roid_rage]

yea bro, but imtalking here about the regular ppl, the ones that can get gyno...

["Maximus"]

Well, again, sorry if I post info from other forum, but I happen to have great admiration for William Llewellyn, and this is what he said about Nolvadex and 19nors.


Nolvadex & Progesterone

"Nolvadex is usually useful for gyno regardless, as progesterone and estrogen both play synergistic roles here, and estrogen is necessary for progesterone to impart notable cell growth. If you antagonize estrogenic stimulation with nolvadex, it is usually sufficient to mitigate gyno even when being exacerbated by progestational steroids."

Well, lots of ppl keep repiting thins without even knowing what their talking about, I've asked several times 'cause I know loooots of ppl who are taking deca and using nolva and not getting any gyno or worsting existing gyno... (though there may be lots of ppl who do get it worse)

What do you guys have to say about that opinion? (not putting the link so ppl dont think I'm mkt william's site.)

Ok, I will try to summ. this for you as I see that you just copy and pasted this from the net and did not think about what it actually meant:

This means that Nolva is perfectly fine for the athlete who's worried about the sides of 19nors and don't mind including Nolva to prevent the sides. However, the results it will be great -synergistic- but won't be as great as if you waited to use the Nolva for your PCT, as a base, after your cycle!

Also, I haven't seen anybody around here saying Nolva is not good to treat gyno sides...

["Maximus"]

yea bro, but imtalking here about the regular ppl, the ones that can get gyno...

Oh ok... agreed w/you!

[roid_rage]

Ok, I will try to summ. this for you as I see that you just copy and pasted this from the net and did not think about what it actually meant:

This means that Nolva is perfectly fine for the athlete who's worried about the sides of 19nors and don't mind including Nolva to prevent the sides. However, the results it will be great -synergistic- but won't be as great as if you waited to use the Nolva for your PCT, as a base, after your cycle!

Also, I haven't seen anybody around here saying Nolva is not good to treat gyno sides...

This my friend HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PCT OR WHATSOEVER... This has to be with ppl (lots of them, and include ME) SAYING that Nolva should NOT be use while on 19nors, and a respectfull guys saying it can. No more no less.

Nor I said ppl says nolva is not good for test related gyno, I think I made my self pretty clear, 19nors.

By the way, I just dont go around copy pasting everything I find, I have asked so many times in different forums why is that ppl keep on saying that 19nors should not be use along with nolva... and if you look around, you will find like 1000 post here and other forums of ppl saying the same thing, while very few really know and explain why is that. PPl will say, 'cause nolva binds to the prog. receptor and that makes gyno worse... well most ppl dont even know what that means... I was just going around boards and found something is pretty interesting to debate, and opinion coming from a guy that is very well known and respect in the roid world...

Just starting some threat to discuss something more interesting that how much test and deca or tren should I be using for my cycle.

[jstraw428]

19-nor and nolva is istant gyno for me.......

[roid_rage]

19-nor and nolva is istant gyno for me.......

you meant isnt gyno for me... or instant gyno for me... hu?

[jstraw428]

sorry, it is instant gyno for me....if i combine the two....

[roid_rage]

sorry, it is instant gyno for me....if i combine the two....

thanx bro, not getting back to the discussion, in your first post it seems like "it could" but now, you said "instant"... may I know why? or did you have a personal experience on that?

[one8nine]

first, regarless of whether or not its true of false that nolva increases progesterone related side effects, it should not be used on ANY cycle.
muscle growth is based on the tearing down and rebuilding of muscle, nolvadex greatly inhibits muscle to break down in the first place, therefore inhibits overall growth. For ths reason, endurance athletes use it alone to decrease muscle fatigue.

second, whether or not nolvadex causes increased side effects, its still not a great choice because we have BETTER choices. letro is much more effective in controling gyno/estrogen/progesterone, why use a sub par tool?

third, i do believe that nolvadex stimulates pgr. this theory is based on the idea that by crushing estrogen, progesterone related side effects are impossible.

fourth, even if this was true, that means one would need a dosage of nolvadex so intense that estrogen is crushed COMPLETELY, which is unhealthy and will inhibit gains further

[roid_rage]

first, regarless of whether or not its true of false that nolva increases progesterone related side effects, it should not be used on ANY cycle.
muscle growth is based on the tearing down and rebuilding of muscle, nolvadex greatly inhibits muscle to break down in the first place, therefore inhibits overall growth. For ths reason, endurance athletes use it alone to decrease muscle fatigue.

second, whether or not nolvadex causes increased side effects, its still not a great choice because we have BETTER choices. letro is much more effective in controling gyno/estrogen/progesterone, why use a sub par tool?

third, i do believe that nolvadex stimulates pgr. this theory is based on the idea that by crushing estrogen, progesterone related side effects are impossible.

fourth, even if this was true, that means one would need a dosage of nolvadex so intense that estrogen is crushed COMPLETELY, which is unhealthy and will inhibit gains further

Thanx bro!

Now, well, is not always a choice bro... in some countries, like southamericans, letro is not a choice, and adex only to rich ppl...

Now, yeah, that's pretty much what the theory says... What I dont agree with what you say, is that the dosis should be high in order to crush estrogens, no matter how much nolva you take, well estrogens wont be crush, they will just not get to bind the the receptor... Now, what william says is that with getting estrogens out of battle, even if the roid causes progesterone activity is not enough to create prolactin problems...

[one8nine]

Thanx bro!

Now, well, is not always a choice bro... in some countries, like southamericans, letro is not a choice, and adex only to rich ppl...

Now, yeah, that's pretty much what the theory says... What I dont agree with what you say, is that the dosis should be high in order to crush estrogens, no matter how much nolva you take, well estrogens wont be crush, they will just not get to bind the the receptor... Now, what william says is that with getting estrogens out of battle, even if the roid causes progesterone activity is not enough to create prolactin problems...

good point on availability

im having a little problem understanding your english in the last part though.

["Maximus"]

Agree with you... don't take my copy/paste comment as an offense to you! Actually, I gave you my answer because it seems like you're making a reference of using them while one is on a cycle. Right?

In any case I like your argument, so I would like to add that we could say that nolva is like a close relative to estrogen and it could potentially interact with a 19nor (like Deca) to produce
some form of gyno.

19nors don't convert to estrogen, we all know that. However, 19nors are known for causing other types of gyno because of over production of progesterone/prolactin levels in the body. Progesterone amounts in excess amount, as you might be aware, can cause (not the regular type of gyno, like tits) your nipples to grow big and produce milk.

To bottom line is that this is not a 19nors problem directly. The problem is when too much estrogen is present, which it could come from 19nors, and 19nors must be taken with Test based cycles, and Tests would do convert to estrogen. Nolva is estrogenic, thus will look for the right receptors to bind to.

19nors are derivatives from DHEA, which is a main component in test development. Think about it for a minute, 19nors bind to test receptors and if you add to the mix a serm like nolva, your homone production (lh) will be mass produced. You add to this SHGB/estrogens, trying to bind with the receptors the serm is also trying to bind to.

[roid_rage]

good point on availability

im having a little problem understanding your english in the last part though.

crap..sorry, show me what you dont understand I'll try to make it clear...

["Maximus"]

Ahh, the man himself had already spoken..189!

Good argument RR!

[one8nine]

crap..sorry, show me what you dont understand I'll try to make it clear...

the entire paragraph. are you saying that only a small dosage is needed?

[roid_rage]

Agree with you... don't take my copy/paste comment as an offense to you! Actually, I gave you my answer because it seems like you're making a reference of using them while one is on a cycle. Right?

In any case I like your argument, so I would like to add that we could say that nolva is like a close relative to estrogen and it could potentially interact with a 19nor (like Deca) to produce
some form of gyno.

19nors don't convert to estrogen, we all know that. However, 19nors are known for causing other types of gyno because of over production of progesterone/prolactin levels in the body. Progesterone amounts in excess amount, as you might be aware, can cause (not the regular type of gyno, like tits) your nipples to grow big and produce milk.

To bottom line is that this is not a 19nors problem directly. The problem is when too much estrogen is present, which it could come from 19nors, and 19nors must be taken with Test based cycles, and Tests would do convert to estrogen. Nolva is estrogenic, thus will look for the right receptors to bind to.

19nors are derivatives from DHEA, which is a main component in test development. Think about it for a minute, 19nors bind to test receptors and if you add to the mix a serm like nolva, your homone production (lh) will be mass produced. You add to this SHGB/estrogens, trying to bind with the receptors the serm is also trying to bind to.

Good point bro... I'll think about it later and post something, gotta go now...

[one8nine]

Agree with you... don't take my copy/paste comment as an offense to you! Actually, I gave you my answer because it seems like you're making a reference of using them while one is on a cycle. Right?

In any case I like your argument, so I would like to add that we could say that nolva is like a close relative to estrogen and it could potentially interact with a 19nor (like Deca) to produce
some form of gyno.

19nors don't convert to estrogen, we all know that. However, 19nors are known for causing other types of gyno because of over production of progesterone/prolactin levels in the body. Progesterone amounts in excess amount, as you might be aware, can cause (not the regular type of gyno, like tits) your nipples to grow big and produce milk.

19nors stimulate receptors, they do not produce more progesterone. meaning your body reads 5mg as 20mg, but in reality you still only have 5mg.

To bottom line is that this is not a 19nors problem directly. The problem is when too much estrogen is present, which it could come from 19nors, and 19nors must be taken with Test based cycles, and Tests would do convert to estrogen.

did you just say 19nors can make too much estrogen present?

Nolva is estrogenic, thus will look for the right receptors to bind to.

when you say "estrogenic" do you mean it binds to estrogen receptors? od do you mean it increases estrogen related side effects?

19nors are derivatives from DHEA, which is a main component in test development. Think about it for a minute, 19nors bind to test receptors and if you add to the mix a serm like nolva, your homone production (lh) will be mass produced.

are you saying the combination of 19nor/nolva INCREASES lh output?

You add to this SHGB/estrogens, trying to bind with the receptors the serm is also trying to bind to.

what are you getting at with this part?




sorry to be difficult im just not fully understanding what you mean in some parts

["Maximus"]

Yeah, got my eyes tired at putting my thoughts/reasoning together...


Ok, from top to bottom:

1) 19nors stimulate receptors, that's what was meant... just typed as it came to me.
2) No, 19nors inderectly could easily assist in estrogen production as they must be used along with a Test base... please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
3) Yes, I meant estrogenic = binds to ERs. Again, I typed as I had it in my head...sorry mate.
4 & 5) No, what I meant was that when a serm or tamoxifen (like nolva) is used, it helps to elevating fsh/lh production levels. If free strogen just happen to be readily available, it will fight the serms ability to bind to ER (estrongen receptors). Again, correct me if my logic is wrong on this.

[one8nine]

okay
in that case i agree
just misread

good post bro! (bad engligh )

["Maximus"]

okay
in that case i agree
just misread

good post bro! (bad engligh )

Can't quite get used to the posting thing just yet... sometimes, I just don't spell right nor double check the grammar to make sure it's readable and that it makes sense to others... just a learning process lol!

[roid_rage]

Yeah, got my eyes tired at putting my thoughts/reasoning together...


Ok, from top to bottom:

1) 19nors stimulate receptors, that's what was meant... just typed as it came to me.
2) No, 19nors inderectly could easily assist in estrogen production as they must be used along with a Test base... please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
3) Yes, I meant estrogenic = binds to ERs. Again, I typed as I had it in my head...sorry mate.
4 & 5) No, what I meant was that when a serm or tamoxifen (like nolva) is used, it helps to elevating fsh/lh production levels. If free strogen just happen to be readily available, it will fight the serms ability to bind to ER (estrongen receptors). Again, correct me if my logic is wrong on this.

Bro, about 4-5, While on cycle, tamoxifen or any other serm, would help to rise the fsh/lh production, but I dont see how is that going to give you prolactin issues...

[roid_rage]

up....

[dec11]

so nolva is safe to use with a deca AND test cycle? if not what do I use for gyno?

[roid_rage]

so nolva is safe to use with a deca AND test cycle? if not what do I use for gyno?

I guess it is...

[Knockout_Power]

heh, this is always my point. So much conflicting statements or people miswording their messages so the readers get confused. From what I gather, it is safe to run during cycle.