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Thread: first cycle eq and test

  1. #1
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    first cycle eq and test

    Hey guys wanted to say hello! I am a fresh member.
    Wanted to know what everyone thinks of this cycle. First off Ive had issues with winstrol in the past giving me heart palpitations! So I am taking this one slow. I am a third year pharmacy student and have done a lot of research, but practical knowledge is the best. I am fully aware of the risks in doing a cycle, but am willing to take them to see some results. So here it is.

    300mg EQ/200mg Test E per week for 10 weeks
    10mg of Nolvadex per day
    12.5mg of HCTZ per day to limit water weight

    Stop the EQ one week prior to test then after 2nd week off of test I up the Nolvadex to 20mg/day and add 100mg clomid/day for 1wk, then 50mg/day for 1-2 more weeks as needed.

    I am 5' 9 170lbs at 7.5% body fat with a 23 bmi...looking to get to about 5% and 185. You guys think that its possible. I have gone from 160-->178 in the past on NO2 and creatine supps and a strict diet (only took 10 weeks). I think that even a light cycle like this might work pretty well?

    THANKS GUYS

  2. #2
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    How old are you?

    Taking Nolva on cycle is a bad idea...

    100mgs of Clomid is too high IMO... 50 is just fine...

    200mgs of Test is a waste... So is 300mg of EQ!

    How long is this intended cycle supposed to be?

  3. #3
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    i run 100mg clomid and 20mg nolvadex ed for 30 days for pct..
    i also run nolvadex on cycle.. opinions on this will vary..the debate on running it or not during cycles has been going on for years.. i choose to run it as a preventave measure. help keep problems from happening rather than reacting to them once they are there.
    the possible loss of gains is slim if any imo..
    as for the low dose cycle. here is a little info..

    Posted by BASK8KACE on sculptedbyiron

    Low dose cycles--Truth and myth.
    If you've read some of my posts on other boards, you probably already have seen that I advocate suggesting low doses for beginners . Why jump into 600mg per week of test as a first or second cycle when it is highly likely you will get great gains using 200-300mg (in initial cycles)?

    I keep seeing people write that 200mg of testosterone per week does nothing more than shut down a man's natural test production and bring him near "normal levels"--this is not quite correct. This incorrect statement has endured probably because someone wrote down thier idea/theory of what happens in the body, it sounded good, and other people repeated it. But, it is not correct. (I explain why it is incorrect below).

    I was paranoid about side effects of testosterone on a normally functioning body, so I had my blood levels checked while on 200-250mg per week. The results of the tests indicated that the amount of testosterone in my blood was more than twice the high end of the normal range (The normal free testosterone range is 50.0-210.0 pg/ml*. My levels were found to be near 550 pg/ml). I also talked to my doctor and UPJOHN nurses a lot about using testosterone at these doses. Here's a brief bit of what I've learned from my doctor, the UPJOHN nursing staff (UPJOHN was the original manufacturer of Depo-testosterone a.k.a Testosterone Cypionate. The rights of Depo-testosterone was sold to PFIZER which now produces it under the name PHARMACIA), and professional medical documents:

    *--NOTE: pg/ml is the correct unit notation.

    Using a long acting ester testosterone (CYP and ENAN) does not mimic the normally functioning male body's circadian rhythm (daily rise and fall of testosterone). Testosterone, in a normally functioning body, does not explode up to high levels then gradually fall over a 1-2 week period as it does when injecting a testosterone such as CYP or ENAN. On the contrary, the body produces a small amount each day which is far below 200mg (It's around 10mg). That small amount is concentrated at the beginning of the day and then falls low by the end of the day. This process repeats itself every day and by the end of two weeks, a normally functioning body produces approximately 140mg of testosterone (appx. 70mg per week).

    The use of long acting esters are in theory supposed to slowly release the testosterone over a two week period, but this is not quite what happens. To keep it simple, the delay of the esters actually allows large amounts of testosterone to build up--especially if you are taking 200mg every week as opposed to once every two weeks (biweekly) which is what the dose is supposed to be. (I'm simplifying here). Remember the "normally functioning" male produces only (appx.) 70mg per week (=140mg per two weeks). The dose doctors are recommended to perscribe is 200mg every 2 weeks (biweekly), but they tend to give 200mg every week.

    So, it is fallacious reasoning to compare the TOTAL amount of testosterone produced in daily spurts in a normally functioning body over a 2 week period to the same amount of testosterone injected in one shot at the beginning of a week and reshot every week (before the previous week's dose is used up). The latter case (injections once per week) results in an overlap and build up of dose which causes the levels of testosterone to be HIGHER than normal. (Remember the shots should actually be 200mg every TWO weeks--not every week). These excess levels of testosterone are sufficient to build lean body mass faster than the "normally functioning" male.

    In other words: addding up what the average male body produces per week then comparing that to the amount that is shot every week is like comparing apples to oranges. There is a whole diferent set of advantageous reactions happening in the body when it is given a full
    2-week load (200mg) at the beginning of a week as opposed to getting naturally occuring, small, daily spurts of appx 10mg over the same period of time (2 weeks).

    This is why a low dose cycle can yeild REASONABLE gains. Understand, I'm not talking mega-huge-fast gains. I'm talking noticably-faster-than-normal gains, which when coupled with a strict diet, sufficient rest and an excellent bodybuilding work ethic, can yeild large, solid gains (especially early in a person's cycle experience).


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulciber View Post
    i run 100mg clomid and 20mg nolvadex ed for 30 days for pct..
    i also run nolvadex on cycle.. opinions on this will vary..the debate on running it or not during cycles has been going on for years.. i choose to run it as a preventave measure. help keep problems from happening rather than reacting to them once they are there.
    the possible loss of gains is slim if any imo..
    as for the low dose cycle. here is a little info..


    haha so basically youre saying the complete opposite of what im saying?

    Lol

    I find it kinda funny that the article says truth and myth, yet it is all opinion based information...

    IMHO, 300mgs of Test is not enough to yield gains that MOST people want out of running a cycle. Will you get gains from it? Sure you will!

    But 500mgs is generally accepted as the norm in most circles...

    And Nolva in cycle is a bad idea(again IMHO)

    If taken with tren\deca or drol it will INCREASE sides.
    Nolvadex is also TOO anti-catabolic.

    If your goal is to limit estrogen related sides, Arimidex @ .25mg ED is the way to go...

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by pharm-muscle View Post
    Hey guys wanted to say hello! I am a fresh member.
    Wanted to know what everyone thinks of this cycle. First off Ive had issues with winstrol in the past giving me heart palpitations! So I am taking this one slow. I am a third year pharmacy student and have done a lot of research, but practical knowledge is the best. I am fully aware of the risks in doing a cycle, but am willing to take them to see some results. So here it is.

    300mg EQ/200mg Test E per week for 10 weeks
    10mg of Nolvadex per day
    12.5mg of HCTZ per day to limit water weight

    Stop the EQ one week prior to test then after 2nd week off of test I up the Nolvadex to 20mg/day and add 100mg clomid/day for 1wk, then 50mg/day for 1-2 more weeks as needed.

    I am 5' 9 170lbs at 7.5% body fat with a 23 bmi...looking to get to about 5% and 185. You guys think that its possible. I have gone from 160-->178 in the past on NO2 and creatine supps and a strict diet (only took 10 weeks). I think that even a light cycle like this might work pretty well?

    THANKS GUYS

    bump the EQ TO 400MG WK
    and TEST to 500mg WK

  6. #6
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    yes, my opinion differs from yours.. there is no "golden rule"
    hope that isnt a problem..
    but i do agree on the dosing..i personally wouldnt run such a low dose but that is up to the individual. he seems interested in running a low dose cycle and the info posted may be of some benefit to him.

    is the concern about running nolvadex with tren/deca related to progesterone, progesterone related gyno, increased prolactin levels ???

  7. #7
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    The results of the tests indicated that the amount of testosterone in my blood was more than twice the high end of the normal range
    doubling test levels are not a big deal. running nolvadex alone had been shown to increase test levels up to 140% supraphysiological levels are what we are after.

    The latter case (injections once per week) results in an overlap and build up of dose which causes the levels of testosterone to be HIGHER than normal.
    its not like 250mg is being stacked upon 250mg. this is fallacious thinking.

    ill agree with war4BTT.

    nolva on cycle is a waste. there is no need for it. not to mention it is bad on lipids and toxic to the liver.

    lowering IGF (no matter how minimal) is never a good thing for muscle growth.

    500mg test
    400mg EQ

    stop the EQ a week early like you mentioned. then PCT starts 2 weeks after last test injection.

    a SERM and AI should be the base of your post cycle (IMO) and 50mg of clomid is fine. any higher and you will more than likely recieve diminishing returns.

    as for the AI i would choose aromasin. this way you can use it on cycle if needed and it can be combined with tamox post cycle. also easier on lipids and lowers SHBG.

    my 2 cents...

  8. #8
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    nolvadex actually has a positive effect on lipid profile..\

    At clinically administered doses, the plasma half-lives of anastrozole (1 mg once daily), letrozole (2.5 mg once daily), and exemestane (25 mg once daily) were 41-48 hours, 2-4 days, and 27 hours, respectively. The time to steady-state plasma levels was 7 days for both anastrozole and exemestane and 60 days for letrozole. Androgenic side effects have been reported only with exemestane. Anastrozole treatment had no impact on plasma lipid levels, whereas both letrozole and exemestane had an unfavorable effect on plasma lipid levels. In indirect comparisons, anastrozole showed the highest degree of selectivity compared with letrozole and exemestane in terms of a lack of effect on adrenosteroidogenesis.
    Last edited by Mulciber; 09-11-2008 at 09:53 PM.

  9. #9
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    also.. SHBG will already be very low. You want to have more SHBG in PCT as it has several roles in testosterone synthesis.
    SHBG also plays a crucial role in test synthesis by increasing cAMP in leydig and Sertoli cells, and increasing androstendione transport into cells and test transport out of cells to increase andro-to-test conversion.

  10. #10
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    just wanna say one thing.. people need to keep an open mind.. not just soak in 1 freakin study someone posts and continues to post at noisome.. need to consider other alternatives..read both sides.. i dont care what study you post i can post one to conflict..the trick is to read everything..read between the lines and figure out for yourself what you think is going to work best for you.. just because someones opinion differs from yours isnt a sign of disrespect, its just a different opinion.. see to many people getting their panties in a bunch when someone disagrees.. maybe instead of getting puffed up check it out..do some research and see where he is coming from..its not gonna hurt.

    JMHO

  11. #11
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    I am 26
    Thanks guys...looking to ere on the cautious side so I might bump the eq to 400, but I only have 2000mg of test e so 200mg a week is the highest I can run for 10 weeks. I was doing the nolvadex as a preventative measure....the last thing I need is to get gyno!! I am willing to sacrifice some gains to be cautious....but if after 4-5 weeks my gains are minimal I might cut the nolvadex
    I will lower the clomid because of the light cycle and the extra side effects that higher levels might bring. Yeah nolva is good for lipid panel! Anyway...appreciate all the info!!!

    You guys think the combo of test 200/wk and 400 of eq would give me moderate to good results...Is that extra 100mg eq really worth it?
    Unfortunately we have not covered autonomics and hormones yet so I have been having to sift the the bs, opinions, and "medical literature" which we all know can be biased too/

  12. #12
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    [QUOTE=Mulciber;41***03]nolvadex actually has a positive effect on lipid profile..\

    you are right about this. i misspoke. not sure what i was thinking.


    (1) The nonsteroidal inhibitors letrozole (Femara) and anastrozole (Arimidex) bind reversibly to the cytochrome P450 moiety, exposing the enzyme-binding site. Because androstenedione can attach to the binding site and displace the drug, their action is reversible and may ultimately lead to an increase in aromatase activity.
    (2) The steroidal inactivator exemestane (Aromasin) binds irreversibly to the enzyme, thereby reducing aromatase activity. Despite these subtle differences in mechanisms of action, the third-generation aromatase inhibitors and inactivators are equally effective in decreasing serum concentrations of estradiol and estrone and are superior to tamoxifen in postmenopausal women, both as initial hormonal therapy for advanced disease and possibly as adjuvant therapy as well.[1] Conclusions about the clinical effectiveness of the selective estrogenreceptor modulators (SERMs) and antiaromatase agents are derived from independent studies and different cohorts of patients. Most of the available toxicity data on antiaromatase

    +1 for aromasin

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulciber;41***87
    just wanna say one thing.. people need to keep an open mind.. not just soak in 1 freakin study someone posts and continues to post at noisome.. need to consider other alternatives..read both sides.. i dont care what study you post i can post one to conflict..the trick is to read everything..read between the lines and figure out for yourself what you think is going to work best for you.. just because someones opinion differs from yours isnt a sign of disrespect, its just a different opinion.. see to many people getting their panties in a bunch when someone disagrees.. maybe instead of getting puffed up check it out..do some research and see where he is coming from..its not gonna hurt.

    JMHO
    couldnt have said it better myself. well said. after my previous post i was gonna say something along the same lines.

  14. #14
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    ...and after i found a study that showed conflicting results then the one you posted!


    j/k

  15. #15
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    I agree on the arom and arim over nolva...dont have any tho! The LH and FSH stimulation effects of Tamoxifen are what I am looking for and the blocking of circulating estrogen on my tits!!! Because I cant get my hands on the aromatase inhibitors the serm will have to do I guess....Ill just remove it if my gains are slower than I want at 4-5wks.

    Again I appreciate all input...I could just go with my education and research...but no medical research has been on proper steroid abuse!! This is where you guys come in...thanks a bunch!

    Two more years than you guys can come to me for all medicine related questions.
    Actually if anyone has any q's on drugs that the MD has prescribed dont hesitate to ask...Ive 2 years to PhD so I do now a descent amount.

  16. #16
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    1-12 Test e 500mg/wk
    1-12 eq 400mg/wk
    1-6 Anavar 80/80/80/100/100/100

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