Looking for solid advice here!

[firedawg64]

I am a 43 y/o male. I weigh 207 lbs (as of today) and presently have 10 % body fat (skin fold test). I've cycled 2 times before and had good results with test, deca cycles. However, my preparation in pct was horable. I want to get it right this time! I've been spending my share amount of time reading drug profiles trying to do this on my own. I've picked a few brains and now decided on the following...any and all critques are welcome.

My goal moderate quality muscle gain lean BF%

wk 1-10 100mg test blend EOD
75mg tren EOD
hcg early (end wk2) 2 X 1000iu
hcg mid cycle (end wk4) x 2 1000iu
wk 8-11 50mg winny ED
pc start 2 weeks after last test inject = hcg x 2 1000iu
nolva starting 1 wk after last hcg intake 20mg daily for 2 weeks

Does this pct sound reasonable?

[WARMachine]

I dont agree with running HCG throughout the cycle.

If that is indead tren ace you have it needs to be shot ED not EOD.

Thats again, a horrible PCT.

Youre gonna need an AI if you intend on using Tren. And you should have Letro handy for on cycle gyno.

[Mulciber]

not sure what your test blend is so not sure when you should start pct.
hcg through the cycle is fine.. actually a good idea imo.. makes recovery later on easier.
i prefer both clomid and nolvadex for pct 100/20 for 30 days.
make sure you have enough nolvadex for pct as well as during cycle if gyno symptoms arise.

["Maximus"]

Agreed w/BT..

However, I'll give you my personal points on few things...

1) 100mg Test blends; not bad. However there are more suitable substitutes that'll give you better stables plasma levels.

2) 75mg Tren. Which esther of the drug are you looking at? I'm assuming you'll be using Ace to go along with TBlends, right? If that's the case, ED pinnings for both the TBlends and Tren A = better sides prevention and plasma levels.

3) HCG on cycle, imo, is a waste. Why? Because during cycle your test levels are sky high, thus no need to kickstart test production yet. I suggest you to determine the last week when your andro levels will still be high and then start hcg ancillary therapy on that week. This is why you'll see members suggesting to start hcg theraphy at low dosages (1000ius/wk) two weeks before last inject through 2 weeks into PCT ancillary drug theraphy (Nolva/Clomid) starts.

4) Your weakest point I see so far, is your PCT. You need to do more research on this. You need progesteron control for this cycle. This cycle is very suppresive, as you're using a test/19nors/dht and your PCT is POORLY planned yikes! I strongly recommend you the following:

a. Get a strong AI/SERM, like Letro, and keep it on the side in case gyno becomes a problem.
b. Get Proviron for your PCT at 50mg ED for PCT weeks 1-4. Also, if you can afford it, try to get Proviron on cycle instead of anything else (like Adex).
c. You need Clomid to supplement that Nolva; Nolva alone for PCT = you've done or have no knowledge about PCT.

["Maximus"]

Also, forgot to mention that 19nors (tren) dht (winny) = progesterone sides! So my take on getting a much stronger and better PCT protocol. If you don't, I see you losing 90% of your gains more or less made on cycle; I might be streching it here, but there's a huge probability for this if PCT is only based on hcg + Nolva alone. Also, you can compliment the on cycle AI/Serm w/Arimidex in case you can't get Proviron.. but Proviron will be my #1 best for on cycle AI and Letro in case the gyno/progesteron really gets out of control.

goodluck

["Maximus"]

Also, why the 75mg of Tren for a first timer Tren user like you? Sides will be noticeably much higher at that dosage... I suggest to drop it back to 50mg! If everything works as expected, then bump the dosage accordingly but imo, I would leave it at 50mg.

[WARMachine]

Very nice grasshopper! ^^

[LATS60]

I dont agree with running HCG throughout the cycle.

If that is indead tren ace you have it needs to be shot ED not EOD.

Thats again, a horrible PCT.

Youre gonna need an AI if you intend on using Tren. And you should have Letro handy for on cycle gyno.

Iv'e never thought about using an AI with tren, why would this be needed?

["Maximus"]

@LATS,

To prevent Progesteron related sides fron the Tren! For some users this is not a problem, but others have reported milking tits during Tren & a DHT (winny) cycle... this is why you need an AI/SERM.

["Maximus"]

Very nice grasshopper! ^^

I'm just jumping around!

[Reed]

Your so smart Max. You will be watching over me once I get into all of this craziness.

[Mulciber]

i dont believe using hcg during a cycle is a waste at all.. keep from suffering testicular astrophy and recovery post cycle is much easier.

[LATS60]

@LATS,

To prevent Progesteron related sides fron the Tren! For some users this is not a problem, but others have reported milking tits during Tren & a DHT (winny) cycle... this is why you need an AI/SERM.

I think i'm with you, there's me thinking tren,, no aromatization, why use an aromatase inhibitor. I didn't know that it helped with prolactin sides, cheers.

[Mulciber]

lactation is prolactin related not progesterone.. thus caber or bromo..
ai/serm will do nothing for lactation.. b6 however has been shown to help with this.. want to see a study on this too

jez

[LATS60]

lactation is prolactin related not progesterone.. thus caber or bromo..
ai/serm will do nothing for lactation.. b6 however has been shown to help with this.. want to see a study on this too

jez

Thank god for that, thought i was losing my mind.

["Maximus"]

Your so smart Max. You will be watching over me once I get into all of this craziness.

nah, I just did lots of reading and research like for 3months straight before jumping here... then, I'm doing my own research w/my own cycling experiencing, and then I'm taking the advice of knowledgeable peeps that know their stuff really well! but then, other people would say this is BS and copy and paste from bs you find around the net... and I just laugh, because I don't think they know what Research truly means or if they think that 'PubMed' really means public medicine.. lol!!!

In any case, my brother.. you know that family comes first....ALWAYS!!!

["Maximus"]

... that's right is prolacting/progesterone!

Thanks for catching that one Mulciber.. I'll edit later!

[Mulciber]

... that's right is prolacting/progesterone!

Thanks for catching that one Mulciber.. I'll edit later!

uh huh

[WARMachine]

Iv'e never thought about using an AI with tren, why would this be needed?

I was refering to needing an AI in PCT. Not on cycle.

You need Letro when using Tren/and or Deca.

It covers both estro/prolactin sides...

Max just got a little confused is all...

(Grasshopper, i see i still have work to do. :

Master has spoken -- )

["Maximus"]

However, if the OP adds the Proviron and the last 4 weeks of winny that should control progestin levels (prevent milking), to an extent. RAISED progesterone levels, could cause a flare up in gyno.

And yes, the Caber/bromo is good and would do a better job at keeping prolacting levels under control. Like I said, the OP has done poor research on PCT and sides on a cycle like this one.

The Caber/bromo is another beast that he has to think about getting if prolacting levels flares up which is the case on a Tren cycle.

[Mulciber]

You need Letro when using Tren/and or Deca.

It covers both estro/prolactin sides...

please explain..

["Maximus"]

uh huh

Thx for that catch!

[Reed]

nah, I just did lots of reading and research like for 3months straight before jumping here... then, I'm doing my own research w/my own cycling experiencing, and then I'm taking the advice of knowledgeable peeps that know their stuff really well! but then, other people would say this is BS and copy and paste from bs you find around the net... and I just laugh, because I don't think they know what Research truly means or if they think that 'PubMed' really means public medicine.. lol!!!

In any case, my brother.. you know that family comes first....ALWAYS!!!

Yeah I'm all Reeding knowledge at the moment thats it, kinda sad. Thats why I don't post much b/c experience touts over anything else. I have good knowledge just would feel more comfortable posting if I had plenty of experience, know what I mean.

Anyway join Team Reed and you can help me on my future endeavors as a competitive bb. haha. I start my first season next year, you know the stats. Its nice to have someone watch over you.

[LATS60]

I was refering to needing an AI in PCT. Not on cycle.

You need Letro when using Tren/and or Deca.

It covers both estro/prolactin sides...

Max just got a little confused is all...

(Grasshopper, i see i still have work to do. :

Master has spoken -- )

Oh, that wasn't clear, only trouble is now i'm even more confused.

[Mulciber]

i dont care how high your progesterone levels..progesterone itself will not cause gyno.. cirlulating estrogen must also be present to cause gyno.. so keeping estrogen levels in check solves the problem..
progesterone,prolactin,igf,gh and estrogen all work together to cause gyno..

[firedawg64]

Thanks to all!

Looking into proviron now.

["Maximus"]

please explain..

Mainly to combat Tren/Deca caused gyno! AAS elevated prolecting levels, which in turns raises Progesterone levels. If progesteron levels are high, then gyno has a great chance of developing.

["Maximus"]

It's k...

Prolacting levels are raised, due to Tren usage. This causes progesterone levels to raise in the body. As the progesterone levels are raised and the exo Test you're injecting aromatizes to Estro, that would create the perfect system for a miriad of sides... bloating, cough, etc., most profoundly of all these is the known "Tren Gyno".

This is why one must take precautions, like keeping your Proviron for estro control on a test/tren cycle.. adding the winny HELPS but does not prevents prolecting levels from elevating progesterone...

Now, if progesteron becomes a problem you'll need to have a caber/letro to combat sides. Caber is to Tren, as Letro/Nolva is to Gyno... got it?

sorry for the mild confusion... my connection is getting resetted every 30secs, don't know why.. so I would post and then get my reply ereased or if I try to quick edit, it won't go through! suks

[Drake Hotel]

i dont believe using hcg during a cycle is a waste at all.. keep from suffering testicular astrophy and recovery post cycle is much easier.

I agree on that. The balls respond better to stimulation by LH if they're bigger. Obviously hCG use during cycle is not to keep testo up (why would one care about on cycle anyway), but to keep the balls big in anticipation of the cycle end.

[Mulciber]

prolecting levels?
shoot me with straight progesterone.. i dont care.. if im keeping estrogen in check i wont get gyno.
now i do run b6 at 200mg to help keep prolactin levels in check so lactation does not occur. bumping it to 600 if lactation begins will usually stop it but if it dont then ill go with the caber.. again, the elevated prolactin levels cause the lactation..but not gyno

[WARMachine]

i dont care how high your progesterone levels..progesterone itself will not cause gyno.. cirlulating estrogen must also be present to cause gyno.. so keeping estrogen levels in check solves the problem..
progesterone,prolactin,igf,gh and estrogen all work together to cause gyno..

just because you control your estrogen DOES NOT MEAN you are fully protected from the side effects from progesterone. and vice versa!

[Mulciber]

I agree on that. The balls respond better to stimulation by LH if they're bigger. Obviously hCG use during cycle is not to keep testo up (why would one care about on cycle anyway), but to keep the balls big in anticipation of the cycle end.

exactly

["Maximus"]

prolecting levels?
shoot me with straight progesterone.. i dont care.. if im keeping estrogen in check i wont get gyno.
now i do run b6 at 200mg to help keep prolactin levels in check so lactation does not occur. bumping it to 600 if lactation begins will usually stop it but if it dont then ill go with the caber.. again, the elevated prolactin levels cause the lactation..but not gyno

Bingo, this is why you need your Proviron on cycle! and I agree w/you on the B6... you do this IM or oral?

[WARMachine]

This could all be simply avoided with the use of letro on cycle...

[WARMachine]

Caber and Bromo cover progesterone sides.

Adex, aromasin, proviron cover estrogen sides.

Letro covers both

["Maximus"]

I agree on that. The balls respond better to stimulation by LH if they're bigger. Obviously hCG use during cycle is not to keep testo up (why would one care about on cycle anyway), but to keep the balls big in anticipation of the cycle end.

I agree... however, just note that if you use too much of a good thing... you'll end up desensitizing LH hormone and further hindering means wating even longer to return to homeostasis. This is why I wrote "last 2 weeks on cycle and 2 weeks on PCT"... but you can do as you please and think is right and better for your body!

Keep us posted!

[Mulciber]

Bingo, this is why you need your Proviron on cycle! and I agree w/you on the B6... you do this IM or oral?

oral..

and this is why i run an ai from the beginning.. keeping estrogen under control from the beginning.. i prefer adex.. personally i think letro is to strong, you want to try and keep estrogen within normal range..not almost eliminate it.. i dont care what your running if estrogen is under control your good.. now if your not running an ai from the beginning and estrogen spikes you want to keep whats there from binding so nolvadex would be the best bet.. an ai would stop more conversion to estrogen but will do nothing for the circulating estrogen already present.. nolvadex will work in days where an ai would take weeks.. meanwhile the gyno symptoms progress

["Maximus"]

just because you control your estrogen DOES NOT MEAN you are fully protected from the side effects from progesterone. and vice versa!

This is so true! Right on BT.

["Maximus"]

True, Mul.. I find letro to be too strong, so I prefer Proviron. I've heard of Arimidex but I've never try it before so I can't speak from experience using it.

I'm thinking about doing B6 IM too..along w/my tren shots don't know if that's a green light though.

[BG]

i dont believe using hcg during a cycle is a waste at all.. keep from suffering testicular astrophy and recovery post cycle is much easier.

^^^I agree and at his age it would be a great idea, stopping it 2 weeks before pct. Some bad advice going around.

Plus milking tits has a clinical name, its called lactating, you'll sound abit smarter next time using it