safest steroid for first cycle?

[Damien]

hey all im just wondering what would be the safest steroid to use for a first cycle?

im 17... before i get flamed, lemme present my case:

ive been working out for 2 years.... so no im not a newbie... ive learnt about dieting, working out, and the whole works... so dont tell me go fix my diet first.... basically my point is this: ive worked my ass off and gotten no where, so I figure its time to even the odds on my crappy genetics... im pretty sure my test levels are below average my voice sounds like a 13 year olds, it takes me like 4 or 5 days to recover, im not nearly as aggressive as id like to be, and most of all my lifts suck ass: after 2 years working out, this is what i have to show
bench: 135 x 8?!?
barbell curls: 45 x 10
chins: cant do more than 5 without assistance...i use that freakin machine, and i end up needing up to 90 lbs of assistance...

yeah and it goes on and on.... all i hear on boards is about 13 year olds starting out and benching like 300 so im tired of being in the shadows... my genetics suck total ass, and im going to do something about it... anyways that wasnt the point of this thread....
back to the question now- given that im 17, what is the safest steroid cycle I could use to start out? im looking for overall mass and strength..

[Mastiff]

Damien, Could you go take a look at the "Can a 17 year old open a PO Box" thread? Here is the link.
http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...threadid=36271

You, especially, should not do roids. This is because, although you are 17, it sounds like your body is maturing slower than normal. Its like you have the body of a 14 year old. I know that this sucks the big one. I was in the same boat. I was 5'5" and I looked 2-3 years younger than I was. I was strong, but I was tiny. I took roids. I'm 51 years old now, still 5'5". I totally screwed up my endocrine system, which has devastating health effects. Go read that thread, then get back to me.

[bigceps]

Don't do it. You are too young. You can try to tell someone experienced about your diet and workout. You may think that you have learnt enough about natural training, but i suggest you to take some assistance, there are always more to be learnt. If you have not grown and gained well while body-building naturally, you even may not gain with roids. Besides, 17 is a very young age, you may end up f*cking your health.

[hammerhead]

Unfortunately you're not seeing the big picture.

At your age you do not have the decision available to just run out and try a steroid cycle and if I like it i'll do more and then once I get big enough i'll stop taking them and i'll work out hard enough to keep the gains oh if I could just get a little bigger ... Unfortunately at your age your body is going through alot of changes. This is an important period in your life. Don't get pissed at us it's the way the human body works. You need to go through a puberty-like stage that will change you. It may not happen for years. It may not happen for another 5 years who knows. But it will happen and it will make things alot better. Some people are late bloomers. It happens. But if you do steroids now there are 3 things that are guaranteed to be true:

(1) if it works - you'll love it and want to do more and more so don't talk about only doing a little and stopping when you get "big enough" - it's addictive as hell - especially to us thin hard-gainers
(2) you'll lose whatever you gain when the juice wears off because you haven't developed the natural test levels to maintain that mass and at your age your metabolism just about guarantees you'll have a real hard time keeping any amount of muscle mass created from exogenous anabolics
(3) you'll never know what your body would've become without the steroids because your natural progression will stop - where you are now is what body you will live with for the rest of your life. learn to really like it buddy it's yours forever - either learn to like it or be prepared to stay on steroids for life.

Why do you care about what's the safest steroids for your first cycle anyway??? You're planning to be on steroids for the rest of your life whether you know it or not.

ANAVAR is what you should take - it has the least effect on closing the growth palates - it does suppress your natural test levels and it will screw up your endocrine system but at least you might actually grow a little taller or wider and not be locked into your current body size forever.

Remember one thing: the rest of your life is a long long time buddy

[hammerhead]

That was the harsh-reality check "dad talk" you already know. Sorry but I had to say it - it's an age thing.

I'd like to say that I completely understand what you're going through. I hate to just post only that though - I want to be helpful and preaching to you what you already know probably isn't helping you much. I'm going to post another thread - this one's yours - with the story of what happened to me - i'll get that thread out there sometime today - I was in your shoes and I chose to use steroids. Read that thread please.

[Warrior]

If you think you might have a clinical problem go to your primary care provider and ask them fr a test. Just tell the doc what you told us.

[Carlos_E]

Damien, also read this thread:

http://www.anabolicreview.com/vbulle...threadid=35824

[Compendium]

You are definately a newbie and you need to train naturally and eat more. You are the reason steroids are looked down upon.

[Red Ketchup]

I have to agree with Warrior on this one...

If you're 17 and feel your developement is lagging behing a lot, talk to your family doctor about it.

I've been working with teens at outdoors programs for 10+ years and and had one of them who was around your age looked like he hadn'd really grown much since he was 14... ends up he had a thyroid problem. Proper medication and he shot up and bulked within months (it was eerie!).

So, I concur with the others here, stay away from the juice *FOR NOW*. If you don't have a medical problem, juice might cause one. If you DO have a hormonal problem, then the last thing you want to do is "self medicate" and make things worse in the long run.

My 2 cents worth...

[Madmax]

hey bro, im 22 and when i was 17 i was in your shoes. relax give it some time. your still young don't mess your test up now, your to young. everyone wants to get big and theres a lot of pressure to do roids. but wait till your in your 20's. i did and my gains are better for it now. be patient. don't worry what other people are doing or lifting. focus on yourself the gains will come in time until then lift hard take the right supplements and then in a few more years think about juicing. Madmax.

[Agenor]

I know it sounds crapy, but DON'T DO IT. You're way too young. Give your body a chance to develop to it's max. All you can do is to continue to train hard and eat right. That way your body will get far more than if you start messin' with roids and with your body's functions while you're still developing. If you want try the natural stuff- creatine, glutamine..., but don't do the hormones.
And you know what- don't miss enjoying other sports while you're young. There'll be a lot of time to pump Iron later.
take care bro.

[Damien]

damn... well although i disagree with the whole "too young" stuff, i think i will ask the doctor for a test... is there anyway i can do this without my parents finding out? they have a tendancy to blame anything bad that happens to me healthwise on my lifting.... BTW this anavar interests me....i havent grown at all since i was like 14... i think putting a couple inches on would be quite nice... well anyways thanks for the info everyone

[hammerhead]

Damien - why don't you take the smart approach here - the goal is to gain right? You're convinced that gear is the answer. Ok - maybe you're just looking for the easy way out and are too young to realize the consequences. Maybe you just really do honestly believe you can't get any stronger or bigger without gear.

The smart approach is to try to fix what's broken the natural way. Try eating the right diet and doing the right routine for awhile and see what happens. You'll be truly amazed.

You can and will gain and keep more with the right diet and the right routine even without gear than you will taking gear and eating what you're eating now and doing your current routine. I know this is true because you just told us at the top of this thread that whatever your diet and routine may happen to be - IT ISN'T WORKING.

Guess what? Even on gear IT STILL WON'T WORK.

Gear doesn't put the size on you. Diet does.

Yes Damien - you will get stronger and bigger on gear and then you'll lose it after you stop taking the gear - I know this for sure - because you've already told us that your diet and routine - absent of gear - doesn't work.

No - your body will not gain some magical ability to maintain more muscle for the rest of your life just because you took a bottle of anavar when you were 17.

No flame intended - I'm trying to get you to see the big picture here. Fix your diet and routine first. Get a little older and maybe one day you'll be able to take gear and keep the gains.

What do you eat on a normal day? What, how much and when? What is your routine? Be honest and you can learn something. It won't be what you came here expecting to get but hey - life deals the cards - better learn to play with what you get.

[celly510]

ive known people that have huge growth spurts around your time in life. my buddy was 5"7 and looked like a girl when he was 17. now hes 20 is 6'2 and looks like a model for GQ. i shit you not. go to the gym and use creatine if you want to but put the roids off for a while.

[Ex_banana-eater]

i wouldnt go with anavar, personally. it can be more liver toxic than any oral except anadrol.
There IS estrogen aromatisation with anavar, but it is slight. however if you are taking 30-40mg a day it will be a larger amount of aromatisation
AND- your HPTA will be effected.

my advice:
go with 1-test
no aromatisation at all
no liver toxicity
take it in two week cycles, so the HPTA is effected very little.

[fiz]

you worked our ass off and got no where? then you didn't learn enough, or you did learn enough just aren'y doing it

don't fuck with roids that young.. your hormones are too unbalanced.. maybe your'e still in the late stages of puberty if your voice is still high

my advice to you is exactly what you dont wanna hear.. eat and lift

pro-hormones may help, but thats the farthest i'd take it. 1-ad and 4-ad have worked well for me

[Ex_banana-eater]

Originally posted by fiz

maybe your'e still in the late stages of puberty if your voice is still high

early stages

[Maytag]

what do you eat? exactly what does your diet look like?

what is your daily nutritional break down?
how many grams of protein?
how many grams of carbohydrats?
how many grams of fat?

lets see the nutritional analysis you did on yourself

4-5days to recover is VERY typical do you expect to be able to hit the same muscle group 3x a week and get gains?

as you can see im a new dude....i don't have anything agaist steroids but im personally dedicated to life long natural bodybuilding.....i've been reading the board for quite a while but i've had it with you young chaps wanting to take steroids....Thats why i registered for an account hehe

i think what you are saying is just a load of BS....sorry to be so blunt

[Mastiff]

re: i wouldnt go with anavar, personally. it can be more liver toxic than any oral except anadrol.


Ex-banana, could you let me know where you got that information? One of the medical uses of anavar is to heal damaged livers. It has been shown that of all the 17aa's available, anavar goes thru the least change passing thru the liver. That means it takes less processing, and the processing of 17aa's is what damages the liver. I'd appreciate your getting back to me. Thanks.

[hammerhead]

Regarding hepatatoxicity - from everything i've read winstrol, anavar, oral turinabol and proviron are quite mild (although potentially harmful if taken for a long time without cessation). Dianabol and halotestin get alot rougher and anadrol is downright nasty. I've seen older folks take long cycles of deca/anavar because it's so mild - even for old folks. It's hard for me to believe that anavar is anywhere near - or even on the same scale - as anadrol in hepatatoxicity or in any other class of side-effects. I'm just as curious as you are mast - i'm planing on taking anavar next spring - if there's data out there I don't know about .....

[Ex_banana-eater]

most of the cycles of anavar related to teenagers where in amounts of 5-10mg a day. with that said, it still increased clinical markers of liver values. now use a bodybuilders dosing: 30-40 mg, and you are likely to get much more of a negative impact on your liver.
here is a little bit of stuff i threw together... couldnt find any of the good studies... just some comparing oxymethalone to oxandralone....only one anavar study.

...Anadrol has been (back) on the market for over one and one half years now, and we have been surprised that we have not had even one report of elevated liver enzymes from HIV(+) men who call our hotline. We have had males who have had some side effects, including primarily water retention and acne, but we have also had males who have had no problems, only glowing praise that Anadrol was the only steroid that helped them gain weight after severe weight loss, and it was the only steroid besides testosterone that improved their libido and energy. (August, 1999: We now have one report of a negative effect on the liver that appears to have been caused by an interaction with specific AIDS medications


...Data from a multi-site dose-ranging study of Oxandrin(Anavar) presented by Dr. Carl Grunfeld at the Geneva AIDS Conference stated that Oxandrin caused elevations of SGOT and SGPT when used in 40 and 80 mg doses. It has been suggested that Oxandrin may interact with the 3A4 P450 enzyme system that metabolizes protease inhibitors while this does not appear to be the case with Anadrol.(1) In comparison, Anadrol did not cause elevations of these enzymes in the Hengge study at a daily dose of 150 mg.(2) It may be that Oxandrin has more potential for liver toxicity than Anadrol when a person is using protease inhibitors.

1. Thacker DL, et al. Metabolism of an anabolic androgenic steroid, oxymetholone by human cytrochrome p450s. Clinical Pharmacology and Therapeutics. 1999;65(2): Abstract number 75.
2. Hengge, UR, et al. Oxymetholone promotes weight gain in patients with advanced human immunodeficiency virus infection. Brit J Nutr (1996) 75:129-138.

...While oxymetholone is considered to be a harsh steroid with a high potential for side-effects, the subjects were reported to have no significant problems with liver function, water retention, virilization, and several side-effects thought to be associated with its use, at a dose that is three times what many bodybuilders would use, for considerably longer than they would generally use it.

[Ex_banana-eater]

i remember reading on EF that a guy was using doses of 40-50 a day, and he got his liver tested and the clinical markers were jacked up like crazy on the test.

IMO, anavar is poop. hella expensive, and the lowest gains.

[Mastiff]

Thanks, Ex-Banana. The one study on oxandralone mentioned that there was an interaction between it and protease inhibitors that caused the liver toxicity. That is a concern to Aids patients, not the general bodybuilding populace. I have always thought that the liver damage caused by Anadrol was overstated. My brother takes 150mg/day for anemia, and his liver values are not elevated beyond the normal range. We don't know what else the guy on EF was taking, and we don't know if he had liver damage from something else.
I definitely agree, anavar is hellishly expensive. I find it a lot better than poop, however. You make quality gains on it, it gives you great strength gains. It is not a big mass builder. It is excellent following d-bol or anadrol, to help you keep the gains you've made. The strength gains make for harder workouts, which also improves gains. The other place that it shines is the lack of androgenic side effects and, if you will pardon me, lack of liver toxicity. From what I understand, it is the best roid (safest) out there for the female bodybuilder. I think in its place it is great. Huge mass gains is definitely not one of them.

[hammerhead]

One of the main reasons I recommended anavar is that Damien is 17 years old - it's a case of someone who is still growing. What anavar means to the older BB is a different thread. But thanks for the info. BTW i'm planning on using anavar in a cuting cycle.

[Iron horse]

personaly, I started a bit young as well, not as young as you, but still young.


here's what I find that I was able to deal with, but some of my friends couldnt: hairloss, acne, coming off - depression, no pump feeling

as soon as one of my friends cycles stopped, he got the zero pump thing for three days after and couldnt handle it. So he went and did another cycle right away so he didnt have to face having low test levels for a little longer. He was on clomid too and just couldnt wait. Its very hard on the mind, it took a lot of dicipline to wait a proper amount of time. And most young guys have already a bunch of stresses: school, family life, rules with parents, girlfriends, friends, general insecure feeling... etc. I could go on for a while..

IMO, the mental part is something you wouldnt want to face/experience untill you really had two feet on the ground. When your not insecure about yourself, you have convidence in your life and who you are and understand the fact you have to "come off" for a certain amount of time.

[Agenor]

good idea- write what you eat and how you work out so maybe we can help you out
.

[ripsid]

Damien, deffinately read the link posted by Mastiff! Also, there's a good chance you're a late bloomer bro! Just relax and work your ass off! Don't mess with the gear bro. Hell, I'm 3...3 (f3ck I hate saying that!) and I haven't done it yet! Listen here's a story about SID the Teener!
I was killing myself in the gym and I was 125 when I was a freshman...4 years later after killing myself in the gym I was...135! Dude! Relax! I was 135 I was benching over 260 and eating those weight gainers 5 a day! eating like a f3cking horse! Nothing! I'm no f'n arnold now but I was in the Navy and I went from 135 to like 185 190 in the next 2 years! I was strong as f3ck! and finally gained I was 20! Just relax! man I came home on leave and my pop was like are you on steroids? I was like nope, all I did was eat EVERYTHING! and workout! Give it time bro! Relax ask the pro's or anyone it takes more than 2 years to get big! It's not in a pill or a needle, it's below your sternum! Put your TIME in and it'll happen. Trust me man, I'm 3....3 and I can't get the look I want but I'm working my ass off! Hell when I was 20 I was bigger than I am now! and I do it right now as far as diet and supp's! and I struggle to gain. Now I do my research and try to do it right. NOW not then! Use your head man! It's not worth it YET. YET!

[Damien]

*sigh*...you guys are depressing me...i have soo much stress in my life.. i feel like im failing at everything- school, women, the works.... my only outlet is the gym, and it just really pisses me off to "fail" at this too.... but fine whatever ill reconsider this when im 18.. im pretty disappointed i dont see a magical boost in strength and size coming on any time soon but ill hope for the best

[Mastiff]

Damien, haven't you been reading this thread? There is not one thing said about not gaining big time. You've had very knowledgeable bro's lined up waiting to tell you how to get really huge. You can get big naturally. Like Maytag said:

what do you eat? exactly what does your diet look like?

what is your daily nutritional break down?
how many grams of protein?
how many grams of carbohydrats?
how many grams of fat?

lets see the nutritional analysis you did on yourself

4-5days to recover is VERY typical do you expect to be able to hit the same muscle group 3x a week and get gains?

We know how to get muscle gains on roids. Its the same way you get them without roids. All the roids do is make the gains faster, at least till you get to your genetic limit. Tell us what you are doing. We will tell you what changes to make. There is no need to sigh and quit. Thats a childish reaction. Focus your energy on getting big naturally. Then when your hormones have settled down, you'll be ready to go to town. You need to find out the best combination of diet and exercise that works for your body.

[Damien]

okay... well right now im doing my first cutting cycle... im trying to do a keto diet

so i get like 1 gram of protien per lb of bodyweight...the rest of my calories are obviously from fat... i take 20 grams of carbs pre workout, 30 post workout

i try to do about 6 working sets per myscle group.... for 2 weeks i work at high reps (8-12), and then for the 3rd week i use low reps for strength (4-6).... then i switch routines and do another one of htese 3 week cycles...then i take a week off, and then change routines and start the cycle again

[bulkmeUP]

personally, I think you should invest in some supplements

these normally do wonders when combined

- Tribulus, Red clover
- Creatine
- Flax seed oil
- L-Glutamine

and of course Whey protein.

if you don't gain at least 1kg in a month, you're not eating enough...

oh yeah, if you feel your test levels are so low, get a blood test

[Mastiff]

You definitely are not getting enough protein. You want to have protein in your bloodstream at all times. Eat 6 to 8 small meals, high in protein, daily. Take a lot of protein drinks between meals and at bedtime. If you happen to wake up at night take another one. Cut out most of the fat. Eat clean, go for the nutrient dense foods. Don't eat fast foods. You should be eating 5,000-6000 ca/day at your age. Don't go for a cutting diet now. Muscle requires more calories to maintain than fat, therefore when you get more muscle your BMR goes up, which makes it easier to cut. What are your stats? It is possible that you are overtraining. Cut back on the number of sets you do, and work each bodypart only once a week. We don't know how well your body rebuilds yet, this has to be fine-tuned for the way your body works. Everybody is different. Also, make the base of your workout routine heavy squats and deadlifts. I have to go offline now, I won't be back for a few days. I'll PM you when I get back to see how you are doing. Good luck.

[Ex_banana-eater]

what does your post workout nutrition look like?

[fLgAtOr]

Damien,

Bro, you strike me as quite knowledgable. BUT! In short, here's my opinion (also a hardgainer). If you (at 17) can't make gains naturally, then you won't be able to with AS. Please understand that everyone on this thread is trying to help you. Listen to them!

Take it from someone who has been there:

Everytime you get impatient and are certain that you want to use AS, get on this board and READ! I guarantee that you will wait another day, week, or month when you realize that there is so much more you DON'T know. I am constantly blown away with sooooooo much info...

Hope this helps bro...

PS. The question isn't IF you are going to use, it is WHEN.

[calirj0]

Im surprised no one has mentioned this yet with regards to his training routine. I'm sorry, I know everyone is different and must I say I have very poor genetics - You really do'nt get much worse then mine. But i've able to make great gains through persistence, and that persistence certainly isnt 6 working sets per body part. When I started out, for the first 3 months (when I knew nothing) I used to do a minimum 18 sets per body part, with intensity unmatched. I agree that this was too much, and changed my routine after I learned a little more. One thing I DO know is that regardless of genetics, you simply cannot grow doing six sets per body part, it simply isnt enough. So many parts of your body have multiple axis on which they move, and the key is not hitting 6 sets with the same movement (which is overtraining) But hitting each area of each muscle from different angles for 3 sets each, occasionally 6 sets each.

For example, If I'm doing chest on a given day, I'm definately doing 3 sets flat exercise, 3 sets incline, 3 sets decline, and 3 sets of some kind of flye movement. Shoulders needs 4 angles, back needs at least 4 angles, bis/tris have different heads, ect. The point here is that 6 working sets will not give you overall development, and I am cetain that it is overall development which lifts heavier weights. Your bench doesnt go up from training flat bench, it goes up from training ant. delts, long head of tri's, lower lats, and yes - flat bench.

Do more sets, more angles - Your recovery time won't increase if you tax different parts of the muscle with different movements.

And, of course, theres nothing wrong with some whey, glutamine, and even the Media's scapegoat, our good friend creatine. IMO, any other supplements which claim to build muscle may just due that, but certainly not at the rate which justifies the cost.

~ Cali

[Maytag]

Originally posted by Damien
okay... well right now im doing my first cutting cycle... im trying to do a keto diet

so i get like 1 gram of protien per lb of bodyweight...the rest of my calories are obviously from fat... i take 20 grams of carbs pre workout, 30 post workout

i try to do about 6 working sets per myscle group.... for 2 weeks i work at high reps (8-12), and then for the 3rd week i use low reps for strength (4-6).... then i switch routines and do another one of htese 3 week cycles...then i take a week off, and then change routines and start the cycle again

you're expeting leaps in strength on the Ketosis diet?

up that carbohydrate intake then we're in business

without supplying your body with enough glucose (in your case WAY too little), OFCOURSE you're not gonna make gains

im your typical Asian, small, short (5'6) genes with fast metabolism...i trained for months without gains....thats untill i start learning about nutrition...after doing a nutritional analysis on myself i found that i was only getting in about 100g of carbohydrates into my daily diet ( too little)......

now im sitting at 195lbs starting to get ready to go into my cutting phase to prep for my comp, chugging down ablmost 5000kcals a day with 60% (750g-800g) of that being carbohydrate

[Maytag]

and about your workout routine

don't change your routine untill your confident with your diet...use your workout as a baseline to measure your progress....don't let yourself slide in weight and reps from the previous workout...if you do you KNOW you are not getting enough nutrients into your body and probably not enough rest as well....you should ALWAYS see progress...every week....yes naturally!

the sure fire way of determining if you diet is working for you is strength increase....strength increase doesn't necessarily mean adding on more weight evey workout...it also means that you are able to feel that muscle better with that weight and that you can do a few more reps or maybe your stick point is improving

you said you haven't moved up the amts of weight you can lift by very much these last few years.....but have you notice your muscle getting fuller?

[Agenor]

Does your cutting cycle mean you're dieting? Why are you dieting for? Dou you want to get bigger or smaller?Mastiff made few good points about how your nutrition should be. As more clean calories you get the better for you ,and increase the protein. Why did you choose a keto diet? Maybe your bad feelings about your life partly come from the keto diet. It's a big stress for an organism- It takes time for an organism to swich it's metabolism to fats and oils. the depletion of carbos and ketosis can make you really depressed and feeling like you don't have any energy left.
Try this: Post wotk out SHAKE: 40g of whey protein and 50g of glucose (+creatine and glutamine if you use them) right after your w-out. This should be the most important meal in your day.
EAT big and clean.

[hammerhead]

You're 17. You live with Mom and Dad right? Your ability to eat what you want to eat is limited right?

Try this: a protein shake every morning as soon as you get out of bed. Shoot for 60 grams of protein per shake. Mixing some milk in your shake is not a bad idea with you being 17 and still growing.

For each of breakfast, lunch and dinner try to get 100 grams of mostly complex carbohydrates. That's like 8 slices of bread or 4 potatoes. Try to eat at least one pound of lean meat every day. Keep the sugar down. Avoid fats like mayo, butter, salad dressings, chips, candy. Nuts are a good source of fats. Avoid fried foods. Gravitate towards baked and grilled.

Get another protein shake in you at bedrime.

You're trying to get 400 grams of carbohydrates a day. 300 grams of protein and no more than about 80 grams of fat. That's only 3500 calories a day. If you're not getting that minimum amount then you're wasting your time in the gym and you're sure as hell going to waste the gear if you take any.

That's not as much as what you really ought to be eating. This is just a simple living-with-Mom diet that's easy and makes a good starting point.

Here's one day's worth of eating to serve as an example:
6:00AM - protein shake
8:00AM - 2 bagels, fruit juice
12:00AM 3 roast beef sandwiches (no mayo) + beef stew with rice
5:00PM 16oz grilled chicken breast, 9oz pasta with marinade and 2 cups steamed brocolli
8:00PM nuts and fruit
10:00PM protein shake

That's nowhere near what I eat or what you should be eating it's just a starting point.

[Damien]

lol...well i gotta say you guys have convinced me.... as soon as im done cutting im gonna try this advice.. personally i dont think 4000 cals is needed apart from working out i dont do that much physical activity... anyways ill try again after i finish cutting....but if i dont see results i will be very tempted to use a mild AS cycel... plus ill be 18 so i think that makes it more reaonalbe....anyways thanks everyone for the advice