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  1. #1
    ktothec112 is offline New Member
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    Does anybody just do 1-2 cycles and then train naturally?

    I am considering doing 1-2 cycles, starting in a few months when school is over and I'll have more time to lift, then going back to training naturally for the rest of my life. Maybe 1 more for a total of 3, tops.

    I hear people say all the time "once you turn to darkside you never go back. after you see how strong these compounds are mentally and physically you will never train naturally again."

    I am 185 and have been gaining extremely slowly for the past two years, despite eating 4500 cals a day & training like a beast. My eventual goal would be to be around 200-210 @ 10% bf. After I reach this point, I would continue to train naturally just as hard as ever and try to gain if possible, but be content with just maintaining. Is this possible, or will I eventually lose what I gained on cycle. If so, how much?

    stats:
    5'11"
    185lbs.
    12% bf
    23 years old (will be 24 at time of cycle)
    training for 10 years total, 7 with proper diet and training

    Cycle I am considering:
    Test-e 500mg week
    Letro .25 mg ed

    PCT:
    HCG (2 weeks before PCT, 2 Weeks into PCT)
    nolva (5-6 weeks)

    Has anybody here, or does anybody know someone, who has done 1-2 cycles and then quit gear forever & continue to train naturally? And kept 90% of what they gained on cycle?

  2. #2
    Amorphic's Avatar
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    the transition is a tough one. if you do a couple cycles and stop you will eventually no matter what return back to the size your body is capable of (this is keeping in mind that you trained to reach your genetic limit before taking aas)

    within 6 months to a year you will be back to normal. your cycle looks good, letro is overkill though, nolva or arimidex should be all you need to keep your estrogen in check and only needs to be taken when you start feeling estrogen sides.

    pct could benefit from some aromasin as well

  3. #3
    ktothec112 is offline New Member
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    OK. Let's say 185 is not my maximum genetic potential. Let's say my max is 210 that I could get to NATURALLY. So are you saying that if I use gear to get up to 210 (my genetic max), I will eventually go back down to 185, right back where I was before using gear? If so, how do you know this? Have you personally whitnessed this happen to someone?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktothec112 View Post
    OK. Let's say 185 is not my maximum genetic potential. Let's say my max is 210 that I could get to NATURALLY. So are you saying that if I use gear to get up to 210 (my genetic max), I will eventually go back down to 185, right back where I was before using gear? If so, how do you know this? Have you personally whitnessed this happen to someone?
    im 5'10, and i found around 210-215 is the heaviest i can get without just adding fat. when i started cycling i went to 225. i came off and went back down to 210.

    so if i stopped cycling for a year or more i would stay around 210 since thats all my body can handle naturally. when you add aas to the mix you go beyond your natural potential, and once you're over the natural threshold you're going to have to keep cycling to keep the gains.

    obviously proper diet and pct are critical in this as well

  5. #5
    nhl1 is offline Associate Member
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    I'm going to reply because you are at about the exact situation I was in 3 years ago.

    I'm 6'00", and was at a plateau of 185.

    But then with creatine, and promatrix primobolan (a formerly legal prohormone) I was able to climb up to 210 with about 15% bf.

    Thats the maximum limit that my bodies naturally producing testosterone will hold. And thats what its all about. Your muscles feed, exist, grow, live, etc... from testosterone, so unless you are manually pumping it, or a similar hormone into your body, youre eventually going to be back to what you're body can naturally support.

    Don't listen to any of these clowns who say no way you can just eat 6,000 calories a day with 350 grams of protein a day and maintain all of your aas gains. It chemically, genetically, and physiologically doesnt work like that.

    Especially not test based gains, I dont see why people some people say those are the easiest to keep. That has got to be one of the most absurd statements Ive ever heard.

    Now as to what the limit is that your bodies naturally producing testosterone level is, who knows. You could be 225, 220, or 190. Only your body knows. And thats why people keep cycling. To keep what they had or to get back what they lost. Its extremely addicting, lol.

    But the point is you'll never really know until you see for yourself, your body has a weight it wants to be at, and is always fighting towards it. Thats just genetics. Take a look at your parents though and you can get a better idea.

    Also, in my opinion, test is not the compound to use for the most keepable gains, like I said. There are several others that are much more keepable. Im sure you may hear otherwise but I dont buy it.
    Last edited by nhl1; 10-29-2008 at 12:19 AM.

  6. #6
    nhl1 is offline Associate Member
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    Also, even though I've never tried it, because I haven't felt the desire to shell out $2k for a supply and when I was ready I couldn't find it. Anyways, my point is!

    hgh

    Anytime you grow naturally or with aas you are simply expanding your muscle cells.

    Hgh gives you more muscle cells, permanently. And thats why the gains don't go away. So I've been told, and read at least.

    That might be something else for you to consider.

  7. #7
    GT2's Avatar
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    I haven't heard of any SERIOUS trainer who has cycled, and then stopped.

    I bet when you started bodybuilding you just wanted to "tone up" (which is what most people want out of it, they don't want to be "too big" which is a joke in itself), but look what happened, that went out the window and you wanted to get bigger and bigger.

    What makes you think steroids are any different? You will get bigger, and you will want to get bigger and bigger. I don't see anyone doing 2 cycles, getting awesome results, and saying "that's enough for me". Are you kidding me?

    Just something to consider.

  8. #8
    T_Own's Avatar
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    ^^ some people can actually be content with their body if thats what they had in mind. i can very easily see running 1-2 cycles for the aesthetics mainly, then continuing to workout for fun later in life. i know for sure that wanting to be 20-25 and big is one thing, but the business man in you does NOT want that look at 45.

    just saying that to make an argument, although i do believe its true sometimes.

  9. #9
    GT2's Avatar
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    ^^ I respect that train of thought, but I made clear I was talking about SERIOUS trainers for the exact reason that I knew someone would argue the case.

    I agree that everyday people who want to do it for aesthetics will do a couple cycles then train for fun, I won't dispute that. But I really am talking about "hardcore" (haha) trainers.

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    T_Own's Avatar
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    ahh ok i see your point now. but that still kinda goes a long with it. sometimes i am dead set on working out in any way possible, not to say i'm hard core by any means, missing a day in the gym isn't gonna kill me, but i still think that mentality changes a lot when people have to really face life and not just themselves

  11. #11
    GT2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_Own View Post
    ahh ok i see your point now. but that still kinda goes a long with it. sometimes i am dead set on working out in any way possible, not to say i'm hard core by any means, missing a day in the gym isn't gonna kill me, but i still think that mentality changes a lot when people have to really face life and not just themselves
    Yeah I respect that, and that is true. I'm only young, at university full-time, work part-time, and live with my parents, so for me, I don't have many things to worry about that's why I can devote myself quite fully to training. However, when I get a full-time job, married, kids, mortgage to pay off, it will definitely be a different story.

    But I have some food for thought...If you want something bad enough, you will do whatever it takes to get it. Even if you are busy etc, you will still put in that extra effort and sacrifice other things to achieve your goals.

    I guess it all depends on the individual and their aspirations
    Some train for fitness, some train socially, some train for a living, some train because they have goals. That's the beauty of the world, everyone is different.

  12. #12
    T_Own's Avatar
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    very true. and yes, its very nice being at school (i live away from home but the mom covers it all) and not having many worries at all.

    its also true about finding time. my dad wasn't happy with his weight (~185, 5'9) so he started running, but his jobs can be anywhere from 20 min to 2 hours away, each way, so its hard to find time in there when half your day is devoted to work. but he manages and is now lighter than me (~175 for him) and stays pretty active for his age.

    funny off-topic story: at one of his jobs, his coworker was talking about "when you get to be my age..." so my dad goes "how old do you think i am" the guy responds "35?" but its actually the reverse lol

  13. #13
    GT2's Avatar
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    ^^ Hahaha that's hilarious. I bet your dad was a happy chappy after hearing that.

  14. #14
    T_Own's Avatar
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    haha yeah he thought it was pretty funny. but if you saw him you wouldn't think he's that old either. he has 0 grey hairs, stays in pretty good shape, and doesn't act old at all. his side has good genes, his dad made it to 70s before starting to get a lot of greys.

  15. #15
    Garbanzo Dude is offline Member
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    i have a childhood friend that has only done 3 cycles.....and those have added a significant amount to his back and arms.....true he is not even close to as big as he was while on cycle....those cycles have changed his shape(grown/enlarged) the muscle to the point where can look pretty damn good working natty or just OTC supps,

  16. #16
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    five years ago, the very thought of injecting steroids was absurd to me... mostly because of all the bad rep roids were getting but also because I bought into the whole supplement-touting propaganda bodybuilding magazines were selling while all the models were actually juicers, which I didn't think they were.

    Then I met a pro BBer whom now I consider to be one of my most inspirational friends. He trained me (and himself) balls-to-the-walls for a year and made me follow a strict diet similar to his... the subject of gear NEVER came up and I but on 25lbs of muscle naturally in 18 months...but guess what, when my gains plateaued no matter what I did, I looked at him and was like, there's NO WAY i can look like him naturally and I doubt there's no way he could either.

    So I asked him and he was upfront about it. He also said that he trained me naturally for a year to see how serious I was about bodybuilding and my commitment was self evident. He knew it was just a matter of time before I would get an epiphany and realize the truth about getting massive. That's when he helped me design my first cycle.

    I still told him that I would only do one cycle because I just wanted to be buff but not as big as him, and that would be all. He looked at me and had the biggest laugh of his life. I didn't understand why then, but now I do. It's a very slippery slope once you start juicing. When you see your strength and size literally grow in front of your eyes, you realize sky's the limit. No matter how big you get, you're still your own worst critic. there's alway something more you want; bigger shoulders next time around, sweeping quads, etc... You've already got the discipline, it'd be such a waste not to capitalize on them... and the thought of getting smaller... blasphemy!

    Best part is, over five cycles later, I still think the one I'm on will be my last! Also, training with my friend and seeing how hardcore he was earned him immense respect in my eyes, and made me realize that recreational steroid users are unfairly demonized as "cheaters", those muscles don't grow on their own accord in the presence of gear, it's the discipline, training and diet that does.

    sorry for the long write, but just wanted to show the mental evol u t i o n I went through, because right now, like my friend, I am laughing my ass off at you Also, if you are gonna use gear to get to your genetic limit, it's better you do that naturally via diet/training and take the long scenic route.

    cheers
    Last edited by InsaneInTheMembrane; 10-29-2008 at 03:40 AM.

  17. #17
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    My advice would be if you're looking for long lasting gains go for HGH, anabolics are all well and good but you will loose it. Training hard and eating right may delay how quickly but eventually your body's natural testosterone levels will determine how much muscle you keep.

    Steroids are different from HGH in that steroids increase the size of muscle cells, mostly through water weight. When a person uses HGH, they gain only lean muscle mass. The weight gain is slow, usually between one and two pounds of lean muscle every two to three weeks. However, by taking HGH and developing new muscle cells, a person can alter their genetic capabilities and achieve results that wouldn’t be possible without HGH treatment!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ktothec112 View Post
    OK. Let's say 185 is not my maximum genetic potential. Let's say my max is 210 that I could get to NATURALLY. So are you saying that if I use gear to get up to 210 (my genetic max), I will eventually go back down to 185, right back where I was before using gear? If so, how do you know this? Have you personally whitnessed this happen to someone?
    any opinions on this question?

  19. #19
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    My opinion on that is that if you have been eating 4500 calories a day and 'training like a beast' as you put it and have only reached 185, then your near your natural max body weight. Think about it?!

    SOOO eventually you will probably return to 185 or there abouts!!

  20. #20
    cadet009 is offline New Member
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    Quite frankly, i do not think you have reach your max weight. how many years have you been training? Are you dedicated to training even as a recreational users, if not, then get you mind in the game. To be honest with you, I am much younger than you but i have put in 6 strenuous years to get where I am at.

    Your weight will always fluctuate up or down depending on your training or diet. I am from Africa and most of my family was genetically inherent to endurance and not mass. However, in high school (with the help of creatine and a proper training regiment) I was 6'1 225-230LB my senior year. Mind you that as a freshman in high school (fresh off the motherland) I weighted a measly 120LB. Many do not believe me when i say this, but, the food here is great and full of proteins. lol. To make a long story short, reassess your dedication to training and reach your peak until you eventually plateau and then can you consider AAS. If you are an athlete or have participate in ed competitions then it is slightly different. If you feel that you have reached your maximal gains naturally, then i recommend from what I have read, HGH especially considering your recreational status!

    It is a slow process, but worth it since you will be able to keep the majority of your gains later on. Do research on it and find out if it is your match.

  21. #21
    richtries's Avatar
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    awesome thread, food for thought . . .

  22. #22
    Doberman is offline Associate Member
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    ktotchec112

    5.11 and 185 eating 4500 kcals a day training for 10+ years!? somethings not right, what are your strength levels like i.e bench, squat and deadlift numbers? and how many grams of protien do you get in a day?
    Last edited by Doberman; 10-29-2008 at 01:31 PM.

  23. #23
    Kratos's Avatar
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    I was gonna do one or two cycles.
    Can't wait for cycle #5 now.

  24. #24
    XNathan's Avatar
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    You question is little funny...

    I had sparing partner. Not brilliant minded guy but nice guy. I trained him for one year naturaly he gained 20lbs and was in good shape but he want more so I opened him doors to ASS. He hained another 20lbs and realised that he is now in shape and size that he had in dreams and quit gym and ASS... he come back after one year he lost 35lbs and gained fat...

    You will never keep your gains from cycle even you will hard like mad and eat like nutrition god.

    I allways fall back to my 210lbs even I train good and keepmy diet in check. I can keep my weight up for months after PCT but week by week Iam going back to my genetic set point.

    From my side... if you want just one (2 or 3) cycle(s) and keep results dont do AS you will safe money, time and disappointment.

  25. #25
    gangers is offline Banned
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    if u go back down to your natural limit after usage how do old guys like hulk hogan stay big and toned???

  26. #26
    BBall6 is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by gangers View Post
    if u go back down to your natural limit after usage how do old guys like hulk hogan stay big and toned???
    One possibility is genetics, the more likely scenario is that he is still taking juice or a pro hormone

  27. #27
    gangers is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBall6 View Post
    One possibility is genetics, the more likely scenario is that he is still taking juice or a pro hormone
    yeah thats what ide say but i think guys like batista in the wwe get tested now.

  28. #28
    ALIN is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by ktothec112 View Post
    I am considering doing 1-2 cycles, starting in a few months when school is over and I'll have more time to lift, then going back to training naturally for the rest of my life. Maybe 1 more for a total of 3, tops.

    I hear people say all the time "once you turn to darkside you never go back. after you see how strong these compounds are mentally and physically you will never train naturally again."

    I am 185 and have been gaining extremely slowly for the past two years, despite eating 4500 cals a day & training like a beast. My eventual goal would be to be around 200-210 @ 10% bf. After I reach this point, I would continue to train naturally just as hard as ever and try to gain if possible, but be content with just maintaining. Is this possible, or will I eventually lose what I gained on cycle. If so, how much?

    stats:
    5'11"
    185lbs.
    12% bf
    23 years old (will be 24 at time of cycle)
    training for 10 years total, 7 with proper diet and training

    Cycle I am considering:
    Test-e 500mg week
    Letro .25 mg ed

    PCT:
    HCG (2 weeks before PCT, 2 Weeks into PCT)
    nolva (5-6 weeks)

    Has anybody here, or does anybody know someone, who has done 1-2 cycles and then quit gear forever & continue to train naturally? And kept 90% of what they gained on cycle?
    actually Ive known quite a few guys who have done similar idea,,but more like 4-8 cycles. one of my buds still looks ON but is now natural for some time.

  29. #29
    UncleD's Avatar
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    well like there saying its your genetic limitations that let you know what youll keep
    i go up to 280 somtimes with 18-20%bf on cycle bulking when i come off for 4-5 months i hold 250 -260 pretty easy im also 6'4" and have good genetics..before i juiced i was 250lbs so thats my natty limit(more like 230lbs if lean)

  30. #30
    richtries's Avatar
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    ive just been told by my bird (who is a final year medical student) that its bollox about hgh creating new muscle cells . . .

  31. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amorphic View Post
    im 5'10, and i found around 210-215 is the heaviest i can get without just adding fat. when i started cycling i went to 225. i came off and went back down to 210.

    so if i stopped cycling for a year or more i would stay around 210 since thats all my body can handle naturally. when you add aas to the mix you go beyond your natural potential, and once you're over the natural threshold you're going to have to keep cycling to keep the gains.

    obviously proper diet and pct are critical in this as well

    so say i havent reached my natural potential and i weigh in at 90kgs do a cycle test 12weeks get to 110 after pct etc i drop down to 200 and 200 is my natural limit would i keep the 10 extra kgs i gained from 190 to 200 ? as this is my natural limitor would i drop back down to 190 ?

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by XNathan View Post
    You question is little funny...

    I had sparing partner. Not brilliant minded guy but nice guy. I trained him for one year naturaly he gained 20lbs and was in good shape but he want more so I opened him doors to ASS. He hained another 20lbs and realised that he is now in shape and size that he had in dreams and quit gym and ASS... he come back after one year he lost 35lbs and gained fat...

    You will never keep your gains from cycle even you will hard like mad and eat like nutrition god.

    I allways fall back to my 210lbs even I train good and keepmy diet in check. I can keep my weight up for months after PCT but week by week Iam going back to my genetic set point.

    From my side... if you want just one (2 or 3) cycle(s) and keep results dont do AS you will safe money, time and disappointment.
    good post

  33. #33
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    if 200 is your limit and you continue to train/eat/rest properly u will stay 200 but thats all youl be till u cycle again.

  34. #34
    ktothec112 is offline New Member
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    185 is definately not my natural limit. I am still gaining, just painfully slow. I was approx. 181 around this time last year, so that's 4 pounds per year. Please don't question my diet/nutrition, it is spot on I assure you. I have been living the bodybuilding lifestyle for most of my entire life, my family and friends are all involved, i've done massive amounts of research, I know what I'm doing.

    my brother is about 220 but he's 6'2, natural, he's been lifting for about 9-10 years also. Therefore I estimate my natural limit is somewhere around the 200 range (im 5'11"), give or take a few lbs.

    let's assume for simplicity that my natural limit is 200lbs. If I juice from 185 to 200, can I train natty and maintain 200lbs.? Or is the general consesus that I will eventually shrink back down to 185 (where I had reach naturally prior to juicing)?

    As far as getting "addicted" to the incredible power of AAS, I dont see that happening to me. I do not have an addictive personality and hate drugs (dont even drink alcohol), and am very disciplined. I would be very happy at 200lbs and would not want to get any bigger than that, I don't personally don't like the Ronny Coleman / Jay Cutler look, I wanna be big, not HUGE.

  35. #35
    nhl1 is offline Associate Member
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    Yes, if your bodies natural test will support the 200 lbs you will keep it. And you can continue to train naturally from there on.

    Of course, that was my plan too. :P

  36. #36
    IamtheChitt is offline Associate Member
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    I tend to disagree with most of the comments made here. Lets assume that at the end of your cycle you weigh 200 pounds. Is this where you are saying your body cannot handle the muscle and you lose weight? Be sure to factor in the loss of water weight at the end of cycle. I would judge this as your weight after pct.

    Now in my personal experience, my first cycle I was at 160. I believe 3 cycles later I was around 190 3 months after finishing my last cycle. Please keep in mind, at this time, I was ill informed and did not have a proper diet.

    I've been through some rought times (car wreck) and was in physical therapy for a year, unable to train at all. During this time I dropped to 170, but still got comments on my muscle development. At this time, training naturally, I am at 177 with 9.8% bf, and people comment that I look better now (I much rathered being 190). Too make a long story short I do believe that I kept some of the gains that I had made while cycling even when I wasn't able to work out.

    And yes, the dark side is calling, but I really want to wait until I have reached my peak now that I have the proper diet in check.

    Sorry for the long post...

  37. #37
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    ^^ thats because you started taking steroids way before you reached your natural limit. i don't believe that anyone (barring a disease) would be limited to 160lbs. if you had made it to 190 on your own, then used steroids, i'm sure there would be a much more drastic loss and struggle to regain.

  38. #38
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    Once again what are your bench, squat and deadlift numbers? I know plenty of people who "know" what they are doing and "cant" grow and think they have reached there "natural limit" these same people have trained for years and still look and lift like shit...Im NOT saying thats you but 185 after 10 years tells me you dont know it all, no offense and are maybe looking to steroids to an answer something else could fix...
    Last edited by Doberman; 10-29-2008 at 08:27 PM.

  39. #39
    ktothec112 is offline New Member
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    havent maxed in a while, so these rough are estimates.
    bench: 285
    squat: 385
    dead: 405

    i have been training for 10 years, but 7 were with proper diet/good form on all exercises

    i admit that i have not reached my natural limit. it's possible i have as much as 25lbs. to go.

  40. #40
    IamtheChitt is offline Associate Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by T_Own View Post
    ^^ thats because you started taking steroids way before you reached your natural limit. i don't believe that anyone (barring a disease) would be limited to 160lbs. if you had made it to 190 on your own, then used steroids, i'm sure there would be a much more drastic loss and struggle to regain.
    I definitely agree with you on that note. I'm just saying that I do believe that you keep some of the size. Also, due to muscle memory, I believe that after taking AAS, it is easier to gain the muscle you once had if you take a long break.

    On another note, do you believe that testosterone is key into keeping muscle that is already gained? I would think once you lose all the water weight, that you would keep your gains as long as you kept training hard and consume enough calories (cleanly) to feed your muscle.

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