Receptor downregualtion/ upregulation

[MuscleScience]

But this process will happen whether your injecting a small or large amount of supplemental test. You can run your test at 100mg a week or 1000mg a week and the process of this negative feedback loop will take place. You can also run a cycle for 2 weeks or 12 weeks and the process will still be the same. As you said prior, if you are introducing supplemental test. your leydig cells will stop producing testosterone no matter the cycle length or dose of testosterone. Please correct me if I am wrong. That's why we run PCT so as to stimulate those leydig cells. I know this is simplified but isn't that the just of it.

Its not a simple matter of time, the duration that your body stops producing its own natural testosterone will cause changes in the leydig cells. If the cells are inhibited from functioning they will undergo atrophy. The longer they are suppressed the longer it takes for them to hypertroph and start producing testosterone again. This is why long cycles are harder to recover from than short cycles.

Its no different than muscle disuse atrophy, when you put your leg in a cast the muscles will shrink. The longer the cast is on the more muscle mass is lost thus the longer the recovery.

PCT causes a large and sudden increase in LH to stimulate the leydig cells to basically jump start testicular hypertrophy.

[Gym Freak]

Its not a simple matter of time, the duration that your body stops producing its own natural testosterone will cause changes in the leydig cells. If the cells are inhibited from functioning they will undergo atrophy. The longer they are suppressed the longer it takes for them to hypertroph and start producing testosterone again. This is why long cycles are harder to recover from than short cycles.

Its no different than muscle disuse atrophy, when you put your leg in a cast the muscles will shrink. The longer the cast is on the more muscle mass is lost thus the longer the recovery.

PCT causes a large and sudden increase in LH to stimulate the leydig cells to basically jump start testicular hypertrophy.

I didn't state that it was just a time issue. Plain and simple like you said if the Leydig cells are inhibited they will stop producing test. No matter the dose of test or duration of cycle they are inhibited. Are you speaking from personal experience that longer cycles are harder to recover from or do you have some literature on this topic? I won't argue the fact that many will say that longer cycles are harder to recover from, but there are some on this board that have been on for lenghty periods of time, come off cycle with proper aggresive PCT and had no issues.

[MuscleScience]

I didn't state that it was just a time issue. Plain and simple like you said if the Leydig cells are inhibited they will stop producing test. No matter the dose of test or duration of cycle they are inhibited. Are you speaking from personal experience that longer cycles are harder to recover from or do you have some literature on this topic? I won't argue the fact that many will say that longer cycles are harder to recover from, but there are some on this board that have been on for lenghty periods of time, come off cycle with proper aggresive PCT and had no issues.

Thats coming from the literature, and its basic cell physiology. The longer a particular stimulus is taken away from a cell, the longer it takes for the cells mechanisms to start working again.

For example the enzymes for aerobic metabolism are always present. In highly trained individuals the enzymes are expressed at a much higher frequency. If the athletes stops training the cell will sense that it is no longer needing the enzymes at such a high frequency and will stop expressing the enzyme in high levels. It is physiologically expensive to maintain these enzymes if they are not being used. This process for aerobic detraining takes as little as a week to start to occur.

The longer the person takes off the harder it will be for them to return to their trained fitness level to a point. After three months virtually all training adaptions have been negated. At this point it doesnt really matter if the wait six months or a year before they start training it will take them practically the same time period to get back to previously trained levels.

Same situation for AAS, a 4 week cycle is not going to shut you down as long as a 12 week cycle will. Having said that a 24 week cycle will not shut you down anymore than a 12 week cycle will.

[Gym Freak]

Thats coming from the literature, and its basic cell physiology. The longer a particular stimulus is taken away from a cell, the longer it takes for the cells mechanisms to start working again.

For example the enzymes for aerobic metabolism are always present. In highly trained individuals the enzymes are expressed at a much higher frequency. If the athletes stops training the cell will sense that it is no longer needing the enzymes at such a high frequency and will stop expressing the enzyme in high levels. It is physiologically expensive to maintain these enzymes if they are not being used. This process for aerobic detraining takes as little as a week to start to occur.

The longer the person takes off the harder it will be for them to return to their trained fitness level to a point. After three months virtually all training adaptions have been negated. At this point it doesnt really matter if the wait six months or a year before they start training it will take them practically the same time period to get back to previously trained levels.

Same situation for AAS, a 4 week cycle is not going to shut you down as long as a 12 week cycle will. Having said that a 24 week cycle will not shut you down anymore than a 12 week cycle will.

You're confusing me bro. At first you are quoting literature that says that the longer a stimulus is taken away the longer it takes for homeostasis.

Then at the end you are saying a longer cycle will not shut you down any worse then a shorter cycle. I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading you right.

Oh by the way I'm sure that you have heard about muscle memory.

[MuscleScience]

You're confusing me bro. At first you are quoting literature that says that the longer a stimulus is taken away the longer it takes for homeostasis.

Then at the end you are saying a longer cycle will not shut you down any worse then a shorter cycle. I'm just trying to make sure I'm reading you right.

Oh by the way I'm sure that you have heard about muscle memory.

LOL....I know im confusing you this is about 4 years of physiology class that i am catching you up on. I was very careful what I said. I said the longer a stimulus is took away, the longer it takes to recover to base line...To a point

A four week cycle is not enough time to shut you completely down, but a 12 week cycle is. At 12 weeks your as shut down as your going to be. Going 24 weeks will not cause you any more problems than 12 weeks would in that particular department.(returning to baseline)

In general it takes up to three months for the body to fully adapt to any new stimulus. There are of course exceptions, this drives home my point that how can the cells be more shut down if they are already completely shut down.

That is my point I guess.

[Gym Freak]

The physiology part is not confusing me bro. It's pretty straight forward. Your logic on the other hand is what is confusing. So your saying a 4 week cycle which to some can be considered a short blast cycle will not shut you down completely. Or starting a cycle of test cyp., E, or P with suspension as a kicker for 4 weeks will not shut you down completely. Or even throwing in an oral with your test will not shut you down completely.

You really can't group all types of cells into the same category. Skeletal muscle cells are still different from brain cells, cardiac cells, to bone cells. The basic cellular function and physiology might remain the same but at the same time these different cells act differently when a substance is introduced to the cell. Many pharmacuetical agents are cell specific. Even though the testosterone hormone affects skeletal, cardiac, and other organs that affect is still cell specific.

I think despite the good discussion we have going on we are far off topic which presents the question again of does AR downregulation exist? We need some solid literature and or very experienced AAS users whom have ran long cycles time after time to chime in. Where is Devldog and or Marcus?

[MuscleScience]

The physiology part is not confusing me bro. It's pretty straight forward. Your logic on the other hand is what is confusing. So your saying a 4 week cycle which to some can be considered a short blast cycle will not shut you down completely. Or starting a cycle of test cyp., E, or P with suspension as a kicker for 4 weeks will not shut you down completely. Or even throwing in an oral with your test will not shut you down completely.

I think despite the good discussion we have going on we are far off topic which presents the question again of does AR downregulation exist? We need some solid literature and or very experienced AAS users whom have ran long cycles time after time to chime in. Where is Devldog and or Marcus?

Seems pretty straight forward to me

[Gym Freak]

Your cool Musclescience. Good interaction either way bro.

[jimmyinkedup]

ok so once again IMO - haycocks theory totally depends on the basis that steroids(test) increase # of myonuclei therefore increasing # of receptors....very controversial assumption- many would and do say BS. While GH has been shown to do this ..the small increase in gh by test administration alone is not sufficient to acheive this. His roundabout theory of how it occurs involves substantial amounts of speculation ..in theory its possible...but a serious stretch. As a real world example if these effects were truly exhibited test would be a # 1 prescribed treatment for muscle wasting diseases ...it is not. Now GH on the other hand is. The negative feedback loop mentioned earlier as an explaination of downregulation or perceived donwreg may be good example of the bodies natural process WITHOUT exogenous test introduction but with exo test the effect reaches its "limit" and then thats it. I dont see how that system could explain perceived downregulation and why if it did people can contnue to make gains in a 16-20 week cycle ...doesnt make sense. I believe it makes sense more in a bodies natural state ..not when we are talking weeks and weeks of high dose exogenous test introduced into body. Now the cyp enzyme info posted IS correct and is the bodies way of disposing of testosterone as well as other hormones (mainly exogenous administration) this mechanism with other drugs is associated with expressed downregulation ....why would test be different? While some new receptor sites may even possibly be created (not 100% sure i believe this.. though it does happen with long term high dose administration of some drugs) with most drugs the time frame this takes and the rate at which it occurs never offsets down regulation fully. Many theories both ways but the above things cause me to believe in dowregualtion in one form or another ...whatever terminology you chose to call it...it definately occurs. Again I dont think there is a definitive answer ...you can find abundant info supporting both trains of thought. I do know there are several good reasons to wait adequate length of time between cycles..and I obviously believe downregulation in one form or another def does take place. All the above is just my opinion and speculation. I too enjoyed this thread.

[DEVLDOG]

Test wont cause new cell growth, only GH through the process of converting to Igf or by just simply taking Igf will cause new cell growth otherwise known as hyperplasia. AAS will cause those cells to become larger through Hypertrophy.

I am not a micro biologist or anything even remotely close, but from what Ive read and experienced is there is no such thing as "cell saturation" . all cells in the body die off and regenerate on a cycle,weather it be 30days,60days or whatever,they do regenerate.

[FirstTimeRage]

bump i like this thread, figure it may be good for some people to read into.