SGBH info and Where your sex drive went on Test...

**DrSauce99** · 12-20-2008, 02:04 PM

Well after going on my third cycle with 500mg Test-E a week and having no increase in sex drive after 5-6 weeks (not normal for me) I started trying to figure out whats going on.

All I could figure was...

1. My gear was fake/underdosed.
2. Something was going on with Deca that made the test less "useable" as people have this old wives tale that you must run 2-1 Deca/Test.
3. Something was binding up all my Free test... (Maybe Deca?)

What I didn't take into account...

1. I didnt run Novaldex on this cycle like I did on my first.
2. Im considerable higher bf on this cycle than my first 2. (4-5% vs 10-12%).

Data I gathered:

I did a saliva test for testosterone and estradiol before my cycle and at 5 weeks.

Cycle data:
50mg Dbol ED Weeks 1-4
500 Test-E wk
600 Deca Wk
Use Dbol prior to work outs occasionally

Pre/Post hormone results

Free Test Pre: 122pg/ml
Free Test On: 144pg/ml
Estradiol Pre : .8pg/ml
Estradiol On : 15pg/ml

Well as you can see no significant rise in free test (about 15%) over where I was naturally, yet my estrogen is about 19x higher!

Well this gave me something to go off.

I only had novaldex on hand, I started using it immediately at 20mg/day.
Day 2 I noticed a significant increase in sex drive. Peaked and has held steady upto day 5.

On day 6 I switched to arimidex , .75mg/day. (this has caused me to loose a few lbs)

Im now on day 11 of arimidex, sex drive is still much improved.

Data I gathered:

SGBH isn't completely understood, however its created mostly in the liver (including a few other places in the body). It's also created more with higher body fat and higher estrogen levels. Both of which I had. Thus lowering my estrogen as probably lowered my SGBH.

It stands to reason that my testosterone all through my cycle really wasn't doing much over natural for me due to it all being binded.

I know this topic comes up fairly often and I figured this would be a good help to some people.

I am probably going to do another spit test here soon....

**SilverTest** · 12-20-2008, 02:31 PM

heyyyy sauce great info man !!!!

plz keep us posted on your progress i am in the same pit man you already know.

I am better now too , i am taking nolva and proviron , i am feeling about 30 % better.

i intentionally missed injections the whole week to stabilize things again in my system from that friggin

horrible frontload that i did . i got a little bit of gyno too in my right nip , which confirms that all my problems

where estrogenic.

Tomorrow , i am resuming my injections , we'll see what happens .

its all about experimentation.

**DrSauce99** · 12-20-2008, 02:51 PM

My first cycle I front loaded cyp at 1000mg and 750mg day 1 and day 5, then on day 7 started at 500mg on out. I did run novaldex thru most the cycle though. I broke out pretty bad but I was like a ****ing gorilla straight outta the congo, I had the sex drive of 100 men. lol... Whats your BF approx?

**SilverTest** · 12-20-2008, 02:54 PM

me , hehe , its a little bit high bro , i stopped training for 6 months + eating like crap + stress = high bodyfat , i think its close to about 18% , so i am going this route to get myself back in shape .

**DrSauce99** · 12-20-2008, 03:00 PM

Im guestimating mine around 12 right now... I know I was 5% before and I have a significant difference... probably part of why our SGBH is so high

**jimmyinkedup** · 12-20-2008, 03:02 PM

who is this guy and where is dr suess and the superman pill ..*L* IM KIDDING ...great post doc. ..love 1st hand trial and error info and experience ....good stuff...

**SilverTest** · 12-20-2008, 03:03 PM

yup i think so , but anyways man i aint gonna stop before i get this shit straight.

i am already feeling better so i must be doing something right hehe

**DrSauce99** · 12-20-2008, 03:05 PM

Jimmy- I think it was the provirion in that pill that made it happen...although I asked my buddy who made em, and he said he couldnt remember what all else was in there, but probably priobolan, Anadrol and maybe a few other things, he said he mixed everything he possibly had into em! lol

**jimmyinkedup** · 12-20-2008, 03:08 PM

^^ lets stick to this post ..like i said i was kidding ..this is good stuff (this post) IMO...

**SilverTest** · 12-20-2008, 03:08 PM

well , i am taking the proviron and nolva myself and its working , so its usefull .

IMHO :

the nolva is blocking the estrogenic effects on the tissues of the body

The proviron is lowering the overall estrogen and aromataze conversion process

**jimmyinkedup** · 12-20-2008, 03:17 PM

^^^ we were talking about another post ...anyway i used 2 use nola/proviron years ago on every cycle for estro control and did very well with the combo also.

**redthob** · 12-20-2008, 10:50 PM

Hey DrSauce get ur shbg levels checked if you can.normal level is {20-60}
I know i have a problem with high shbg levels and would like to learn more on how to lower them.
Iv taken winstrol oral 20mg a day and noticed my sex drive increased in about 2-4 days.
There are other steroids that help lower shbg witch would stack well in your cycle.Masteron ,T-bol,and I read anavar helps.

**nyjetsfan86** · 12-21-2008, 12:35 AM

this is great info bc this happaned to me not long ago i was just taking test prop from a ugl and my sex drive dropped like crazy anyother time ive taken test my sex drive was through the roof same thing i started nolva and the sex drive went up, im going to start a cycle with test cyp parabolan and anadrol could the test bind with the parabolan like it does with deca

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 05:25 AM

First to what Redthob is talking about.

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin,also known as SHBG, is what determines how much free testosterone you have floating around at any given time. The higher your SHBG levels, the more testosterone will be kept in a bound state.

This is the reason some guys hardly grow even while on high dosages of steroids and why some users sex drive vanishes.

The more exogenous testosterone that enters your body, the more SHBG the body will produce.

It's your body's way of maintaining homeostasis.

So taking supraphysiological dosages of steroids is not always the wisest choice.

The more you take, the more it binds, so, most of it is just wasted.

Proviron binds very well to SHBG and will allow more of the testosterone you use to remain unbound.

Also of note, Proviron binds to the aromatase enzyme which is responsible for making estrogen and will prevent
estrogen buildup.

If you take Proviron at the start of your cycle you will more than likely mitigate the problems the OP is having.

Also keep in mind, some people use Proviron with Nolvadex which will give you near 100% estrogen
suppression, which is not always the wisest thing since it could hurt your gains.

Among other things, estrogen helps maintain a mentally alert state, bone health, normal sleep wake patterns, etc..

There are many other beneficial aspects to the usage of Proviron and I am amazed that more people don't use it
when they cycle.

Hope this helps,

**nyjetsfan86** · 12-21-2008, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by anon03191970

First to what Redthob is talking about.

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin,also known as SHBG, is what determines how much free testosterone you have floating around at any given time. The higher your SHBG levels, the more testosterone will be kept in a bound state.

This is the reason some guys hardly grow even while on high dosages of steroids and why some users sex drive vanishes.

The more exogenous testosterone that enters your body, the more SHBG the body will produce.

It's your body's way of maintaining homeostasis.

So taking supraphysiological dosages of steroids is not always the wisest choice.

The more you take, the more it binds, so, most of it is just wasted.

Proviron binds very well to SHBG and will allow more of the testosterone you use to remain unbound.

Also of note, Proviron binds to the aromatase enzyme which is responsible for making estrogen and will prevent
estrogen buildup.

If you take Proviron at the start of your cycle you will more than likely mitigate the problems the OP is having.

Also keep in mind, some people use Proviron with Nolvadex which will give you near 100% estrogen
suppression, which is not always the wisest thing since it could hurt your gains.

Among other things, estrogen helps maintain a mentally alert state, bone health, normal sleep wake patterns, etc..

There are many other beneficial aspects to the usage of Proviron and I am amazed that more people don't use it
when they cycle.

Hope this helps,

what are the other benefits of proviron im very interested

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 10:36 AM

Some info.

"..Proviron has four distinct uses in the world of bodybuilding. The first being the result of its structure. It is 5-alpha reduced and not capable of forming estrogen, yet it nonetheless has a much higher affinity for the aromatase enzyme (which converts testosterone to estrogen) than testosterone does. That means in administering it with testosterone or another aromatizable compound, it prevents estrogen build-up because it binds to the aromatase enzyme very strongly, thereby preventing these steroids from interacting with it and forming estrogen. So Mesterolone use has the extreme benefit of reducing estrogenic side-effects and water retention noted with other steroids, and as such still help to provide mostly lean gains. Its also been suggested that it may actually downgrade the actual estrogen receptor making it doubly effective at reducing circulating estrogen levels.

The second use is in enhancing the potency of testosterone. Testosterone in the body at normal physiological levels is mostly inactive. As much as 97 or 98 percent of testosterone in that amount is bound to sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) and albumin, two proteins. In such a form testosterone is mostly inactive. But as with the aromatase enzyme, DHT has a higher affinity for these proteins than testosterone does, so when administered simultaneously the mesterolone will attach to the SHBG and albumin, leaving larger amounts of free testosterone to mediate anabolic activities such as protein synthesis. Another way in which it helps to increase gains. Its also another part of the equation that makes it ineffective on its own, as binding to these proteins too, would render it a non-issue at the androgen receptor.

Thirdly, mesterolone is added in pre-contest phases to increase a distinct hardness and muscle density. Probably due to its reduction in circulating estrogen, perhaps due to the downregulating of the estrogen receptor in muscle tissue, it decreases the total water build-up of the body giving its user a much leaner look, and a visual effect of possessing “harder” muscles with more cuts and striations. Proviron is often used as a last-minute secret by a lot of bodybuilders and both actors and models have used it time and again to deliver top shape day in day out, when needed. Like the other methylated DHT compound, drostanolone, mesterolone is particularly potent in achieving this feat.

Lastly Proviron is used during a cycle of certain hormones such as nandrolone , with a distinct lack of androgenic nature, or perhaps 5-alpha reduced hormones that don’t have the same affinities as DHT does. Such compounds, thinking of trenbolone , nandrolone and such in particular, have been known to decrease libido. Limiting the athlete to perform sexually being the logical result. DHT plays a key role in this process and is therefore administered in conjunction with such steroids to ease or relieve this annoying side-effect. Proviron is also commonly prescribed by doctors to people with low levels of testosterone , or patients with chronic impotence. Its not perceived as a powerful anabolic, but it gets the job done equally well if not better than other anabolic steroids making it a favorite in medical practices due to its lower chance of abuse..."

**LATS60** · 12-21-2008, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by anon03191970

First to what Redthob is talking about.

Sex Hormone Binding Globulin,also known as SHBG, is what determines how much free testosterone you have floating around at any given time. The higher your SHBG levels, the more testosterone will be kept in a bound state.

This is the reason some guys hardly grow even while on high dosages of steroids and why some users sex drive vanishes.

The more exogenous testosterone that enters your body, the more SHBG the body will produce.

It's your body's way of maintaining homeostasis.

So taking supraphysiological dosages of steroids is not always the wisest choice.

The more you take, the more it binds, so, most of it is just wasted.

Proviron binds very well to SHBG and will allow more of the testosterone you use to remain unbound.

Also of note, Proviron binds to the aromatase enzyme which is responsible for making estrogen and will prevent
estrogen buildup.

If you take Proviron at the start of your cycle you will more than likely mitigate the problems the OP is having.

Also keep in mind, some people use Proviron with Nolvadex which will give you near 100% estrogen
suppression, which is not always the wisest thing since it could hurt your gains.

Among other things, estrogen helps maintain a mentally alert state, bone health, normal sleep wake patterns, etc..

There are many other beneficial aspects to the usage of Proviron and I am amazed that more people don't use it
when they cycle.

Hope this helps,

No it doesn't help because some it is rubbish. Just stick to C&P's from BC.

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 10:51 AM

I'm curious, which part is rubbish?

**romo6** · 12-21-2008, 10:52 AM

hey back to what redthob said oral winstrol does work great at lowering shbg oral because it passes thru the liver where shbg is somewhat produced.Winstrol i believe will lower it more than anything.There are some supplments also that help i like tbomb II and stinging nettle root extract.

**LATS60** · 12-21-2008, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by anon03191970

I'm curious, which part is rubbish?

Just to set the record straight.
An excess of androgens/exogenous test actually lowers SHBG. This obviously leads to your theory on homeostasis being innacurate, but thats because homeostasis is controlled soley by your HPTA anyway.

Supraphysiological doses are always need to produce muscle hypertrophy in steroid users.

You cannot say the more you take the more will be bound, because it's simply not true, RE above.

Using nolva and proviron will not give near 100% estrogen suppression because nolva doesn't supress estrogen.

**inky-e** · 12-21-2008, 11:22 AM

Last cycle my bloodwork showed my test level to be 3800....no wonder I was nailing everything in sight....I also noticed that my doctor didn't turn his back on me...hmmm....wonder why?!

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 12:31 PM

While I am more than happy to receive new information that displaces or makes
inoperative, old or outdated thoughts and constructs, this is not such a case.

The statement that exogenous androgens help lower SHBG, makes me say,
really, well knock me over with a 100lb dumbbell!

Ah, but you forgot about the bodies corrective mechanisms that tells it to do something about that excess.

For the life of me I can't figure out what that might be, please, someone through
me a lifeline!

Wait, wait, what's that, could it be, might it be, why yes, it's aromatase and what does it do to that suprapsychological amount of androgens in your body, well that
would be to convert it into estrogen. What does estrogen tend to do, raise shbg.

See how that works slick.

Now it is true there are many factors that go into all of this, body compostion,
genetics, etc., the bottom line is, the information is accurate, as my research has shown.

My basis for saying the combination of Proviron and Nolvadex being an almost 100 percent block on estrogen comes from the following.

And did you notice the modifier in that sentence.

".. In some cases one 25 mg tablet per day is sufficient. When combining Proviron with Nolvadex (50 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day) this will lead to an almost complete suppression of estrogen..."

That's taken from another part of this site.

Either the proprietors of this site should update old or outdated information or you should be more
curious.

Either way, I hope this helps.

**LATS60** · 12-21-2008, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by anon03191970

While I am more than happy to receive new information that displaces or makes
inoperative, old or outdated thoughts and constructs, this is not such a case.

The statement that exogenous androgens help lower SHBG, makes me say,
really, well knock me over with a 100lb dumbbell!

Ah, but you forgot about the bodies corrective mechanisms that tells it to do something about that excess.

For the life of me I can't figure out what that might be, please, someone through
me a lifeline!

Wait, wait, what's that, could it be, might it be, why yes, it's aromatase and what does it do to that suprapsychological amount of androgens in your body, well that
would be to convert it into estrogen. What does estrogen tend to do, raise shbg.

See how that works slick.

Now it is true there are many factors that go into all of this, body compostion,
genetics, etc., the bottom line is, the information is accurate, as my research has shown.

My basis for saying the combination of Proviron and Nolvadex being an almost 100 percent block on estrogen comes from the following.

And did you notice the modifier in that sentence.

".. In some cases one 25 mg tablet per day is sufficient. When combining Proviron with Nolvadex (50 mg Proviron/day and 20 mg Nolvadex/day) this will lead to an almost complete suppression of estrogen..."

That's taken from another part of this site.

Either the proprietors of this site should update old or outdated information or you should be more
curious.

Either way, I hope this helps.

Slick LOL, whatever dude, i wasn't voicing my opinion i was just stating the clinical/medical facts. I couldn't give a damn where you got your info, try applying some common sense to it rather than just spouting. At least look at the mechanics of action of these two drugs.
Your research is only marred by the fact that you don't have the education or common sense to interpret it. And that part is JMO.
PS, it does help, it reinforces my original post.

**Mulciber** · 12-21-2008, 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by anon03191970

Also keep in mind, some people use Proviron with Nolvadex which will give you near 100% estrogen
suppression,
,

have to disagree with this statement..

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 01:05 PM

Disagreement is fine.

That is information culled from this very site.

As I said before, present information to counter it or remove it.

**jimmyinkedup** · 12-21-2008, 01:09 PM

^^^ true ..i diagree as well...a myth that was started long ago...and the very reason people say no gains on cycle if u use nolva...b/c years ago it was believed that it was SO effective at blocking estro it hindered gains.... not the case at all ....i made amazing gains on early cycles usng prov/nolva in combo .... people read alot...and believe everything they read as 100% fact ...real world experience dictates reality ...not scientific theory.... anon i am curious as to your personal experience using prov/nolva in combo for estrogen control on cycle?

**GrandmasterSpank** · 12-21-2008, 01:15 PM

^^^Agreed, firstly, Nolvadex doesn't suppress oestrogen 'at all' mate,- fact is, Nolvadex is weak form of Oestrogen, and it's mechanism of action is to bind to the Oestrogen receptors in the body, blocking off the 'nastier' Oestrogen from binding and causing problems.

**GrandmasterSpank** · 12-21-2008, 01:17 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

^^^ true ..i diagree as well...a myth that was started long ago...and the very reason people say no gains on cycle if u use nolva...b/c years ago it was believed that it was SO effective at blocking estro it hindered gains.... not the case at all ....i made amazing gains on early cycles usng prov/nolva in combo...

Damn straight! I just packed on over 14lbs in 6 weeks running a 'low dose' Test cycle whilst taking Nolvadex every day!

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 01:22 PM

My cycle experience is limited.

The two cycles I did undertake did not require me to use an AI nor did I use Proviron .

But for my future cycles I will be using Proviron and will have Nolvadex on hand.

Everyone's body is different that is why two people weighing the same with the same body fat composition, same diet, etc., can have dramatically different outcomes.

One will become Arnold one will not.

My statements are based on research as I have said exhaustively, If there is better more complete information that can be presented please do so.

Just saying my statements are wrong or you disagree with them doesn't really cut it.

**jimmyinkedup** · 12-21-2008, 01:25 PM

^^^ bro what im saying is real life results dont always jive with scientific theory (which in most cases ..depending on where u look.. can be tailored however you would like). Before arguing points based on theory you found on net....you may want to reserve your opinions till u have some exp to back them up..thats all. Pointing out info you found on netis one thing..arguing it to death with no personal/real life experience to back it up seems a little overboard imo....

**LATS60** · 12-21-2008, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup

^^^ true ..i diagree as well...a myth that was started long ago...and the very reason people say no gains on cycle if u use nolva...b/c years ago it was believed that it was SO effective at blocking estro it hindered gains.... not the case at all ....i made amazing gains on early cycles usng prov/nolva in combo .... people read alot...and believe everything they read as 100% fact ...real world experience dictates reality ...not scientific theory.... anon i am curious as to your personal experience using prov/nolva in combo for estrogen control on cycle?

Agreed, we know now that any gains affected by using nolva on cycle are due to nolva's effect on our igf system.
As for mesterolone and nolva for estrogen control, there are much better newer drugs for this purpose that actually control estrogen, prov and nolva do neither in anyway thats relevant over the use of an AI, especially a type I, like aromasin .
Also, one more point, proviron allegedly free's up more test by binding to SHBG, iv'e yet to see a clinical study that backs this up, if anyones got a link thankyou.
PS, Anon, read page 150 and then refer to the UKAS study.
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=R...sult#PPA150,M1

**Mulciber** · 12-21-2008, 01:35 PM

there has not been anything documented in the medical literature specifically for Proviron but both estrogen and testosterone circulate bound to SHBG. however estrogen is bound much less strongly than testosterone, so agents like proviron preferentially displace estrogen rather than testosterone from SHBG, leading to higher circulating levels of free estrogens.

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

DISPLACEMENT OF ESTROGENS FROM SHBG

Another cause of gynecomastia from estrogen excess includes steroid displacement from sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds androgens more avidly than estrogen. Thus, any condition or drug that can displace steroids from SHBG, will more easily displace estrogen, allowing for higher circulating levels of estrogen.

just thought id throw that out there.. lol

**LATS60** · 12-21-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by anon03191970

Just saying my statements are wrong or you disagree with them doesn't really cut it.

Ok fair point, but by your posts i didn't think you would want proof that nolva does not control estrogen, i thought to insuate that would be patronising in the extreme, as i think most ppl know how nolva works, although there are many who don't understand what proviron is let alone how it works.

**LATS60** · 12-21-2008, 01:39 PM

Originally Posted by Mulciber

there has not been anything documented in the medical literature specifically for Proviron but both estrogen and testosterone circulate bound to SHBG. however estrogen is bound much less strongly than testosterone, so agents like proviron preferentially displace estrogen rather than testosterone from SHBG, leading to higher circulating levels of free estrogens.

http://www.endotext.org/male/male14/male14.htm

DISPLACEMENT OF ESTROGENS FROM SHBG

Another cause of gynecomastia from estrogen excess includes steroid displacement from sex-hormone binding globulin (SHBG). SHBG binds androgens more avidly than estrogen. Thus, any condition or drug that can displace steroids from SHBG, will more easily displace estrogen, allowing for higher circulating levels of estrogen.

just thought id throw that out there.. lol

Thanks Mulciber, i thought you might throw that out.

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 02:28 PM

See that's what I am talking about.

A counter argument supported by research. I will investigate that and modulate or reinforce my opinions based on it.

Lats60,

I would like to apologize for some of my snarky statements to you.

I would just like to have more informed debate, give and take, if you will.

The public already thinks we're all meatheads or worse for doing what we do.

If there is consensus to be had, and if there is better information that can be had, let's
get it out there and debate it.

If you think this is bad, you've got to attend a global warming summit. This is nothing.

**dece870717** · 12-21-2008, 06:00 PM

Was wondering if you could use Winstrol on cycle in place of nolva or proviron to lower SHBG? As the Winstrol profile says it lowers SHBG significantly even at small doses.

**LATS60** · 12-21-2008, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by dece870717

Was wondering if you could use Winstrol on cycle in place of nolva or proviron to lower SHBG? As the Winstrol profile says it lowers SHBG significantly even at small doses.

Taking testosterone lowers SHBG, by altering the balance of dominant estradiol binding to it. i want to know how taking extra synthetic forms of testosterone on top (even if they are non aromatising compounds)will lower SHBG even more? The claims made in the profiles have no backing, that iv'e found.

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 07:29 PM

Here is some info.

"..So, hopefully, you’ve reached the end of this article and realized that Winstrol can be used in any cycle to increase the effectiveness of it, but that it must be used sparingly due to it’s possible hepatoxicity and lipid profile effecting properties. Still, when used in heavy testosterone -based profiles, at a dose that will cut your SHBG levels in half, it can increase your other steroids effectiveness quite a bit…"

"..Generally, people report a "dry" and less lubricated feeling in their joints when on this drug.."

"..but I can do without the discomfort of the shots, and have found other DHT based compounds to be far more effective.."

PROVIRON anyone.

**jimmyinkedup** · 12-21-2008, 07:36 PM

^^^ LATS great ? afffinity to bind doesnt necessarily mean that levels will be lowered...much like the suspicion of proviron as an ai is theorized by its binding properties to the aromitase enzyme ..but has not been proven(AI) ...however i wonder as well since proviron def does do something re sexual dysfunction no doubt about it.... whether it be through the above mentioned binding (shbg lowering theory)or perhaps even as was suggested by mulcibers post displace estro and increasing circulating estro levels ...which in some cases could as u know could increase sex drive libido etc.... I mean there is also theortical evidence that winny is a progesterone antagonist via the same means (binding to prog. receptor) with no hard evidence and yet ive had much success stacking winny with 19 nors..great gains no prog. sides...tough to say what is fact .... dht's tend to have the "reputation" of lowering shbg ..scientific proof ....i cant find any. I mean based on alot of what we are hearing here...prov/nolva should be bad combo on cycle...yet i know im not crazy when i say i did several very productive cycles years ago with no estro sides running it(now use adex). Was there just a coincidental perfect balance of test dosage ...my bodies systems...estro level and estro receptor site blockage allowing great gains...i tend to think not but maybe ....would be pretty lucky for that random occurance to take place on a few consecutive cycles and just for me. You know as well as i do lats ..real world experience sometimes doesnt correspond with scientific theory...that works both ways...you know this well. I mean scientifically speaking the most powerful roid in world would prob be halo...real life experience ...no way.

**anon03191970** · 12-21-2008, 07:46 PM

Uh.. Nowhere did I say you must use proviron in order to have a great cycle.

Just as nowhere did I say you can't use winny and have a super duper one.

Many people cycle with and without these compounds and have had wonderful outcomes.

For me methandrostenelone was created by satan. Others feel it was god's gift to man.

Your mileage may vary in any course you take.

Nowhere in any of this have I given specific advice to follow this course or that.

I have merely presented information that I feel can be helpful

That is all.