hey guys , if someone was using 250 mg a week of test e , and his estrogen went a little bit high , switch to 100 mg per week , does the estrogen in the body lowers down and conforms to the new dosage on its own without any AI?
thanks
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hey guys , if someone was using 250 mg a week of test e , and his estrogen went a little bit high , switch to 100 mg per week , does the estrogen in the body lowers down and conforms to the new dosage on its own without any AI?
thanks
As far as I know there have been no studies dealing with this concept.
If anyone knows of one please provide it.
However, you will more than likely have to use an AI.
Let's think this through rationally.
Your injecting supraphsyological amount's of androgens in your body, your
bodies corrective action is to convert this into estrogen.
Lowering the dosage might mitigate it somewhat, I have not done a double blind
20 week study to confirm this statement mind you, but you will still be injecting
hormones at a level that is beyond baseline.
Your body will more than likely continue seeking homeostasis by continuing the
conversion.
So the use of an AI is prudent in this situation.
Excess estrogen would be metabolized via bodies natural mechanism (cyp enzyme) and since less estrogen would be produced via aromitization (lower exo test dosage)i suspect eventually what u r saying would happen ..how long that would take i do not know.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTest
This is for further consideration on this topic.
"..HAA's (Hormonaly Active Agents) and endogeneous hormones can act through receptor-dependent and receptor-independent (i.e., nonhormonal pathways. Inferneces regarding HAA effects and dose-response realtionships can be weakened by the failure to distinguish between these mechanisms. Receptor-dependent pathways.."
"..This section considers enzymes that metabolize hormones and HAA's and that could be involved in receptor-independent effects..
..Enzymes that metabolize steroids and HAAs include members of the CYP family.
The CYP enzymes figure most prominently in the oxidative metabolism of HAAs and
steroids...
..Many CYP enzymes have broad substrate specificities and hydroxylate steroids and many HAAs, often catylizing rate limiting steps..
..The consequences of exposure to HAAs could differ depending on the nature and
the extent of metabolic transformation of steroids, the metabolic transformation of the HAA, and the interplay between the two..."
"Virtually all HAAs are metabolized through a variety of oxidative and reductive or
conjugation reactions. Metabolism can inactivate an HAA or lead to the activation of a
hormonally-active metabolite.."
".. The function or rate of action of enzymes involved in steroid synthesis, activation, or
degradation can be affected by HAA. Steroid synthesis involves numerous steps leading to the active hormones. The steroid syhthetic enzymes in CYP11 (side-chain-cleavage enzyme), CYP17 (17a-hydroxylase), and CYP19 (aromatase).."
"..an important example is aromatse, which catalyzes the conversion of
testosterone to estradiol.
I will try to get more info..
Obviously the less test you take the less there is to aromatise.Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTest
There will be a need however to reduce estrogen using inhibitors.
It won't just dissapear, it gets metabolized in the fat cells and in turn increases adipose fat, which in itself can cause more estrogen, so once your estrogen cup is full you will get estrogen spill over and then a vicious circle evolves. The only way to stop this is with estrogen inhibitors and of course a diet high in flavanoids and indoles helps. Also excess estrogen produces two types of metabolites, beneficial and harmful, we need to convert these metabolites to the beneficial antioxidents and anticancerous metabolites, not the toxic cancer promoting metabolites.
So basically we need to do three things,
Inhibit estrogen production (bind and de-activate
the cytochrome P 450 aromatase enzyme that converts
androgens to estrogen)
Lower estrogen receptors activity
Shift estrogen metabolism to produce beneficial
metabolites.
This is paramount and what should be done in the presence of excess estrogen, as i said earlier, it won't just go away by itself.
how do we do that ? other than the obvious use of AI.Quote:
Originally Posted by LATS60
Lats its my understanding that the majority of excess estrogen breaks down into metabolites(in the liver btw not in adipose tissue as i understand it) that are excreted in bile and urine....not stored in adipose tissue. Wanna help me out with this? actually im curious...but for his purposes i agree re estro control ..but i answered his original question ...anyway if we can get op imformatuon he desires id appreciate it if u can help me to better undrerstand where ur coming from.....
^^^ yup me too, we know that estro increase adipose , but i never heard that they are actually metabolized IN the fat tissue.
this was an incorrect stement to say stroed in adipose tissue would be incorrect ...i apologize for wording here..thats why i edited
Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverTest
That is how we do it, but there's also growing evidence that plant compounds (phytonutrients) are great natural inhibitors, so make sure these are in your diet, stacking some of these together will inhibit estrogen and don't forget that ***** 3 is a great estrogen modulator, but some foods are estrogen promoters so you need to avoid these, some foods are neutral.
It's important to be proactive and make the right choices of food and supplements. All essential vitamins, minerals and antioxidants must be provided to support the body's metabolism. Together with estrogen inhibitors, such nourishment can help enhance the liver's capacity to detoxify and neutralize excess estrogen, finally creating the right metabolic environment within the body to get leaner and healthier.
You will have to do a search on the foods that help lwer and modulate estrogen, i couldn't possibly find and list all the different categories.
i know veggies like broccoli and cabbage and iceberg lettuce , radish are great E inhibitors .
got me doing some reading..Quote:
Excessive Fats in foods (cheese, meat, oil) encourage certain species of bacteria to grow in the colon. These bacteria have a special ability to split the complex molecule formed by the estrogens and the substance from the liver. These excreted estrogens are freed and are readily absorbed back into the body.
These estrogens rentering the intestines increase body fat production. Higher body fat tissue contains the enzymes to produce even more estrogen.
MacMahon B Urine oestrogen profiles of Asian and North American women. Int J Cancer 14:161, 1974
If you use DIM, Indole-3-carbinol found in plant food, the estrogens convert and are excreted. - Goldin B. Estrogen excretion patterns and plasma levels in vegetarian and omnivorus women, N Engl J Med 307:1542, 1982
Broccoli (raw, not cooked) helps clear undesirable estrogens.
Kall, M.A. "Effects of dietary broccoli on humans in vivo drug metabolizing enzymes: evaluation of caffeine, estrone." Carcinogenesis 17,4 (1996): 793-9.
Obese men have significantly more estrone. Brind J, et al. "Obese men have elevated plasma levels of estrone sulfate." International Journal of Obesity. 14,6 (1990): 483-6.
The use of DIM and INC3 helps restore balance towards the good estrogen and clear the bad. - Bradlow, HL, et al. "2-hydroxyestrone: The `good' estrogen." Journal of Endocrinology. 150 Sept, (1996):S259-S265.
Hair loss and excess estrogens are clearly related to fat in the diet and excess estrogen production in men. - Inaba, M. "Can human hair grow again?" Journal of Dermatology and Surgical Oncology. 12 (1986): 672.
Men's incidence of Prostate cancer and urine estrogens is the hidden untold danger- Muti P, et al. Urinary estrogen Metabolites and prostate cancer: a case-control study in the United States. Cancer Causes Control 2002 Dec; 13(10): 947-55.
Estrogen mimics from pesticides, household cleaners, and plastic bottles are dangerous synthetic forms of introductions of toxins to the male body. All defeating the benefits of testosterone, unless one manages the estrogen and related mimics with DIM, chyrsin, Calcium D Glucarate.
think there are over 40 estrogen metobolites.. two main metabolites 2-OHE and 16a-OHE.
negative being the 16a-OHE, positive benefit from the 2-OHE.
supplementing with I3C and DIM, we can possibly keep estrogen around and get the positive benefits of estrogen without the negative sides.
Some of it is, but remember that estrogen produces two metabolites, good and bad. Our estrogen levels increase with age, excess estrogen promotes the growth of estrogen sensitive tissues leading to an increase in the size of adipose fat, in men this is on the belly and chest, my point here is we are not getting rid of enough estrogen by the natural means you stated above.Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmyinkedup
Yes agreed mulciber, we need the estrogen that converts to the good metabolites. As a pointed out it's possible to shift estrogen metabolism to beneficial metabolites, using the right foods, but as you pointed out there are unwanted harmful estrogens all around us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulciber
Excessive Fats in foods (cheese, meat, oil) encourage certain species of bacteria to grow in the colon. These bacteria have a special ability to split the complex molecule formed by the estrogens and the substance from the liver. These excreted estrogens are freed and are readily absorbed back into the body.
These estrogens rentering the intestines increase body fat production. Higher body fat tissue contains the enzymes to produce even more estrogen.
MacMahon B Urine oestrogen profiles of Asian and North American women. Int J Cancer 14:161, 1974
sooo if im reading this right its a high fat diet and excess bodyfat that would be more responsible for creating the unhealthy estrogen cycle Lats described as it pertains to bodyfat ...not the metabolization of estro in fat cells. Im gonna go out on a limb ...just theory but if u were on a good diet(lower fat) with relatively low bf% id say IMO the excess estrogen would be disposed of as intended...through the liver eliminted via bile...urine. Did i miss something or am i on right track? Any input ? Yes /no? Trying to get ahold of this .......
Great info IMO guys (posts 12,13 & 14)....thanks
Not having an excess of body fat would surely help but aromatse lies elsewhere besides adipose tissue.
"..the aromatase enzyme can be found in many tissues including gonads, brain, adipose tissue, placenta, blood vessels, skin, bone, endometrium as well as in tissue of endometriosis, uterine fibroids, breast cancer, and endometrial cancer..."
What would be the rate of conversion for those with very low body fat?
I don't know.
Will try to get info on this.
^^^ aromitase enzyme would not pertain to already existing circulating estrogen at all....which is what we would be talking about in this case....which was a main point of what i was saying...if excess estrogen could be metabolized by liver and excreted levels would naturally drop ..an ai would do nothing to lower those existing levels.... but the other things mentioned above by lats and mulciber would.....
hey guys lots of great info there !!!! keep it coming ! tx a lot !
couple posts bt NickPhD
Quote:
I have had far more experience with the beneficial effects of DIM, both transdermal and capsule (300 mg to 600 mg a day). The results have been impressive for myself and my clients. I have used transdermal Chrysin, and unlike capsules in transdermal form (40 mg per gram) the stuff dropped estrogen so low it was I believe below the target if desireability. So the dosage needed to be adjusted.
Unlike Armidex which I believe the principal action is to block conversion of testosterone to estrogen, DIM actually assists in the metabolism or speeding the estrogen down thru its 40 metabolites to a desireable end stage called 2OHE -hydroxyestrone.
If I were you, i would use both DIM and Arimidex. or with transdermal chyrsin if you are brave enough.
As to lab work, If I were you I would get a urinary comparision of good 2OHE to bad 16aOHE comparision and the ratio. It is a hidden factor that might make a big difference even in guys who are currently already using armidex or novidex.
As to supplements only, no, I dont believe it is enough, I think the diet has to be richer in vegetables and fruit. Look at Carl Lewis, world fastest man, and I believe oldest sprinter to compete and win in the olympics, in is pure Vegan. Guys, before you jump down my throat on this one, I am not saying you cant have meat, just that the performance from veggies and fruit, (I use a 60 oz blended drink every morning to detoxify.
One researcher, George Baily, of Oregon State University, warns in some cases indole -3 cabinol may actually increase the risk of certain cancers. I think there is a neruotoxicity issue with IC3. The amount if a half a head of cabbage or 4 leaves of bok Choy and napa cabbage or savoury cabbage has enough DIM and IC3 to trigger enzymes that mudge the prucursor to breadk down into a harmless form of estogen rather thena the form linked to prostate cancer. If You use IC3 i would not go above 400 mg a day. I would point out that IC3 is unstable and it converts into DIM (diindolylmethane) when it hits the stomach anyway. So go to the DIM for better results. I an not aware of the study referred that suggested that IC3 was better, i would have to know the absorption to assist DIM, (transdermal is best, followed by eating DIM with a small amount of essential fatty acids normal food in whole foods, to get the correct absorption). I would wonder the dosage, was it sufficient. the normal run of the mill stuff at health foods stores is usually a blend, with not more than 15 to 30 mg per capsule. the stuff I use has 75 mg per capsule, so one can use 2 to 3 am and 2 to 3 pm for fat reduction, muscle building etc.
We have done alot of urine tests and it only takes about 10 to 30 days to detoxify bad estrogens and restore good 2OHE which also binds to SHBG and lets the Free testosterone liberated into the system. Guys, its Free T that is what kick butt and gives you the results, muscle, better sex, healthier prostate etc.
///////////Quote:
Estrogen
Image a christmas tree with Cholesterol followed by Pregnenolone, cascading down to DHEA, cortisol, pregesterone, testosterone, DHT, estrogen (estradiol, Estrone, estriol). And from these three Estrogens there are over 40 estrogen metobolites. TO get awesome results, you must modulate hormones and to manage aging one must understand the potency of downstream metabolites.
The fact that very few doctors or athletes are aware of this critical factor, does not negate the fact that researchers have discovered ways to use natural phytochemicals from cruciferous plant extracts, Indole 3 carbinol-INC3 is one, Diindolylmethane-DIM is another.
I encourage my clients to use at least two to four pounds of raw vegetables a day. Cooking or steaming denatures the qualities of DIM rendering it useless. The best way we have found to consume the necessary amount of DIM is to take a standard blender, not a juicer and blend up bok Choy, Napa Cabbage (chinese cabbage- a white leaved caggage, often seen in chop suey dishes at chinese restaurants etc) along with cucumbers, celery and pears, mixed with 20 oz of water. I drink a total drink of 60 oz every morning as described in my new book # 1 Way to Fitness.
In addition, to manage and slow the conversion of testosterone to estrogen I use a transdermal chrysin (it works as a transdermal cream because it extends the half life, whereas in tablet its half life is so short it doesnt do much good) mixed in with DIM (to clear the downstream 16aOHE -hydroxyestrone). I call this cream Strength Energy. DIM in capsules I call Estroblock.
The chief action of DIM in the cream or capsules is to assist the Intracellular cytochrome enzymes to convert estradiol and estrone and 16a OHE-hydroxyestrone (unmetabolized estrogens -potentially harmful, active carcinogenic and interfering with testosterone receptor sites) to safer forms of estrogen which the body needs as 2 OHE - two hydroxyestrone and 2 Methoxy-estradiol. These so called "good" estrogens that are metabolized, they are protective from cancer (they stimulate apoptosis-search and destroy mutated cells), these good metabolized estrogens generally dont interfer or bind testosterone receptor sites. That means it will require less testosterone to get stronger better results without less or no side effects.
Often times Arimidex and related compounds might block conversion, yet they dont seem to successfully metabolize or assist in the conversion to the safer forms of estrogen. We have measured in the urine these metabolites (lab charge $83) for guys on Arimidex, and after being put on the DIM and the raw vegetable blended drink they are finally able to clear these undesirble estrogens and get rid of the sore "bitch tits" fat gain, lose of muscle, sexual libido restored, prostate health restored, and on to better gains then ever in the area of anti aging.
IF you want to keep alot of bad estrogen around, under the mistaken belief that you will prevent heart disease. As opposed to the direct therapy of diet management (look at the lack of heart disease in many asian and mediterian cultures- centering there diets around rice, vegetables, fruit) vs western culture diet centered around meat, dairy, cheese -significant heart disease.
Cholesterol from the diet does relate to plaque formation. Study the International Athersclerotic project where over 20,000 autopsy were performed and compared to cholesterol levels by the same pathologist on bodies from Asia, africa, USA, France, Germany etc. the findings will shock you.
If you want stong bone density, look at the asian diet bone density vs western diet poor and weak bone density. Consider the use of a diet rich in calicum from vegetables, as compared to the acid containing meats, and dairy that actually acelerate osteoporosis. Look at the use of growth hormone, thyroid, testosterone, DHEA to build strong bones along with intense, exercise weight training.
We use full body bone density scanners. We have seen the improvements in bone density.
TO look at the arteries we have done thousands of cartoid artery scans (studies correlate angiograms, ultra fast CT scans and newer imaging techiques with the simple carotid artery detection), so indictative of plaque formation.
Trust me, it is not lack of estrogen, that causes heart disease or osteoporosis, it is poor diet, lack of exercise and poor hormone management that is the problem.
Dont get me wrong, you do need estrogen, we propose the good type of estrogen and correct balance to the unmetabolized forms and balance of testosterone with management of SHBG-sex hormone binding globulin.
Yes very interesting information gentlemen.