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  1. #1
    calgarian's Avatar
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    Test For Women??

    So here is the question. One of my lady friends is tired all the time . Her thyroid is low but not that low cause she just had it checked. She gets tired very often so I came acroos of this article.
    http://www.usdoctor.com/testtwo.htm

    Answer to question 1,3,4,6,7,9 are yes for her. I told her to get appt for endocronologist but it will take about 4-6 months to get an appointment. I want to ask would it be ok If she can get 100mg of test e /month .

    Any help will be appriciated.

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    KatsMeow is offline Banned
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    I know that doctors have prescribed cyp at 200mg/month just to increase libido I don't think there is a problem with it. And yes it always takes a long time to get into the endo.

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    anon03191970 is offline Associate Member
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    Some info.

    The best delivery system used most often since the 1940's has been intramuscular injections of testosterone . There are five injectable testosterone approved in the United States:

    1.

    Aqueous Testosterone: very short acting (1-2 days)
    2.

    Testosterone Cyprionate: short acting (2-4 days)
    3.

    Testosterone Proprionate: short acting (2-4 days)
    4.

    Testosterone Enthanate: longer acting {7-10 days)
    5.

    Deca -Durabolin : longer acting, muscle pain relief (7-10 days)

    Physicians usually give 50-100 mcg of testosterone to women by injections monthly. But some women find higher estrogen levels and DHEA 25-50mg do effectively increase sex drive without the need for injections of testosterone.

    Some compounding pharmacists will make testosterone gel in 3% solutions for women. This works similarly to the patch, but is applied once daily. More rapid absorption occurs over thin skin (labial) while slower absorption occurs over the abdomen. This is aqueous testosterone-- do not use methyl -testosterone as it has liver toxicity effects.

    However, we have come to prefer the testosterone pellets. Studies in the United States, Europe and the Far East show that testosterone pellets can maintain a stable hormonal level for up to 120 days. Although there is individual variation from manufacturer and by patient, this delivery system has been the easiest for women to accept when long term replacement is indicated. Both estradiol pellets and testosterone pellets are inserted at one time. This is the method most often used in our office. Almost all our menopausal women add estradiol pellets to the testosterone pellet for the balanced feeling of well-being and control of the 'estrogenic' menopausal symptoms.

    Additional Steps to Be Taken:
    If women develop an excessive sex drive, a calming effect is found by taking 160 mg of Saw Palmetto with Pygeum twice daily. This herb will block the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) which affects sex drive and acne. There are no significant side-effects to the Saw Palmetto. . A prescription alternative is marketed as Proscar®.

    Risks of Low Testosterone apply only to men:
    Until recently, few physicians recognized the need for testosterone in women. Testosterone is superior in the treatment of osteoporosis and muscle wasting. Many of our patients report an improvement in clarity of thought (and sex drive) with low dose testosterone replacement . We do not find that the pellets of testosterone and estradiol affect the lipid profile as noted for the oral testosterone product.
    Last edited by anon03191970; 12-26-2008 at 05:06 PM.

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    calgarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon03191970 View Post
    Some info.

    The best delivery system used most often since the 1940's has been intramuscular injections of testosterone . There are five injectable testosterone approved in the United States:

    1.

    Aqueous Testosterone: very short acting (1-2 days)
    2.

    Testosterone Cyprionate: short acting (2-4 days)
    3.

    Testosterone Proprionate: short acting (2-4 days)
    4.

    Testosterone Enthanate: longer acting {7-10 days)
    5.

    Deca -Durabolin : longer acting, muscle pain relief (7-10 days)

    Physicians usually give 50-100 mcg of testosterone to women by injections monthly. But some women find higher estrogen levels and DHEA 25-50mg do effectively increase sex drive without the need for injections of testosterone.

    Some compounding pharmacists will make testosterone gel in 3% solutions for women. This works similarly to the patch, but is applied once daily. More rapid absorption occurs over thin skin (labial) while slower absorption occurs over the abdomen. This is aqueous testosterone-- do not use methyl -testosterone as it has liver toxicity effects.

    However, we have come to prefer the testosterone pellets. Studies in the United States, Europe and the Far East show that testosterone pellets can maintain a stable hormonal level for up to 120 days. Although there is individual variation from manufacturer and by patient, this delivery system has been the easiest for women to accept when long term replacement is indicated. Both estradiol pellets and testosterone pellets are inserted at one time. This is the method most often used in our office. Almost all our menopausal women add estradiol pellets to the testosterone pellet for the balanced feeling of well-being and control of the 'estrogenic' menopausal symptoms.

    Additional Steps to Be Taken:
    If women develop an excessive sex drive, a calming effect is found by taking 160 mg of Saw Palmetto with Pygeum twice daily. This herb will block the conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) which affects sex drive and acne. There are no significant side-effects to the Saw Palmetto. . A prescription alternative is marketed as Proscar®.

    Risks of Low Testosterone apply only to men:
    Until recently, few physicians recognized the need for testosterone in women. Testosterone is superior in the treatment of osteoporosis and muscle wasting. Many of our patients report an improvement in clarity of thought (and sex drive) with low dose testosterone replacement. We do not find that the pellets of testosterone and estradiol affect the lipid profile as noted for the oral testosterone product.
    Did you just copy and paste and bottom of the article i mention in my post

  5. #5
    calgarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KatsMeow View Post
    I know that doctors have prescribed cyp at 200mg/month just to increase libido I don't think there is a problem with it. And yes it always takes a long time to get into the endo.
    Thanks Kat appriciate the feed back....200mg.month isnt it too much?

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    anon03191970 is offline Associate Member
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    Yeah, with an important part highlighted.

    Women can't receive 200mg of test. in a month.

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    calgarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by anon03191970 View Post
    Yeah, with an important part highlighted.

    Women can't receive 200mg of test. in a month.
    I was thinking along the same line.

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    um, so why are you considering giving this woman test? you dont need to see a endo for hrt btw. if shes tired, why would you give her test? women produce little to no testosterone naturally... its not like they are all zombies here.

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    Did you read the link I posted..........

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    Test therapy for women at very low amounts is actually gaining in popularity these days.

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    Mulciber is offline Scammer
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireGuy1 View Post
    Test therapy for women at very low amounts is actually gaining in popularity these days.

    yes it is..



    Women and testosterone : An interview with a Mayo Clinic specialist
    From MayoClinic.com
    Special to CNN.com


    Testosterone is a word that often brings to mind images of big men, big trucks and gladiator-style football. After all, testosterone is considered to be the principal male hormone, playing an important role in the development and maintenance of typical masculine characteristics, such as facial hair, muscle mass and a deeper voice. So why would women want testosterone? The fact is, women produce it too, and it has more positive influences than you might think.

    Paul Carpenter, M.D., is a consultant in endocrinology and health informatics research at Mayo Clinic, Rochester, Minn. He has practiced in endocrinology, with a special interest in hormone replacement, for 25 years. Here he addresses questions about the role of testosterone in women.

    Testosterone is usually thought of as a male hormone, but women have it, too. How much testosterone do women produce?

    Testosterone production is substantially lower in women than it is in men. After puberty, a woman begins to produce a constant, adult level of testosterone. The production is split about 50:50 between the ovaries and the adrenal glands. In men, the testes produce testosterone. Women produce just a fraction of the amount of testosterone each day that men do.

    What does testosterone do for women?

    Studies show that it helps maintain muscle and bone and contributes to sex drive, or libido. There are also quality-of-life issues. If you give testosterone replacement to testosterone-deficient women, they often say they feel better, but they're not specific as to how.

    One of the tough things about research in this area is what has been measured and what hasn't. Testosterone levels , muscle mass and bone strength have been measured. When testosterone levels in the blood increase, bone density generally improves. Although a few researchers have attempted to measure changes in sex drive and overall quality of life, these important effects are much more difficult to assess. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine evaluated sexuality and quality of life in women with low blood levels of testosterone . After raising their blood levels of testosterone using a medicated skin patch, health and sexuality seemed to improve.

    Which women should have their testosterone levels checked?

    It's a complicated answer. After menopause, testosterone production drops, but not as sharply as estrogen does. Forwomen who've had their ovaries removed, testosterone production drops by roughly one-half, sometimes resulting in less-than-normal testosterone blood levels.

    Generally, the women who have too little testosterone are those who may go to their doctor with concerns like, "Ever since I had my ovaries removed, I don't feel like the same person. I'm not as strong, I don't have as much energy and I don't have the same sex drive." Should we measure testosterone in all women who've had their ovaries removed? I don't know. If a woman says her sex life has diminished since her hysterectomy, her doctor may check her testosterone level. If it's low, she can consider testosterone replacement.

    Another group at risk of low testosterone is women who have lost pituitary gland function because of a medical condition or past surgery. The pituitary sends hormone messages to the adrenal glands and ovaries. Without the pituitary signal, hormones aren't manufactured. These women require estrogen and cortisone replacement, and they're also testosterone deficient. This isn't a common problem, however.

    Why aren't more women being given testosterone replacement?

    It's true that very few women are getting testosterone replacement. As I've indicated, good studies about deficiency are sparse. Because of that, many doctors aren't yet convinced of the benefits. In testosterone replacement studies done 15 or 20 years ago, the doses were often too high. As a result, there were side effects, such as body hair growth and acne.

    Another major problem is that we don't have good product choices to give women because the drug companies don't manufacture many products fortestosterone replacement in women. In the New England Journal of Medicine study mentioned before, researchers tested a skin patch designed forwomen. Unfortunately, this patch isn't yet available but may well be in the future. Testosterone patches are available for men, and there is a testosterone gel they can apply to their skin. But because women would need a much smaller dose, they cannot use the patches or gels designed for men.

    Right now there's really not a good way to replace testosterone in women. We can use injections, but most women don't want to come in for a shot every 2 or 3 weeks, and the blood levels are hard to regulate. After an injection, testosterone levels may go up too high, then decline, like a roller coaster. There's no pure testosterone in pill form either. Synthetic pills are available but tend to be unevenly absorbed into the body and may pose some risk to the liver. Testosterone delivered through the skin with a patch is absorbed quite evenly and seems more natural, with less potential for serious side effects. Using patches doesn't appear to be risky as long as the dose is regulated.

    How important is it forwomen with low testosterone to have it replaced?

    It isn't an imminent health danger per se. However, think about the older woman with osteoporosis who has fallen and fractured her hip. If her testosterone is low, would replacement have helped prevent her hip fracture? It's possible. Testosterone has the potential to strengthen her bones. Additionally, she might have been able to prevent the fall if her muscle mass had been better.

    If a postmenopausal woman is on hormone replacement therapy (HRT), does that affect her need for testosterone?

    Yes. Estrogen therapy — with or without progesterone — can further suppress residual testosterone production by the ovaries. That's because hormone signals from the pituitary gland drive ovarian hormone production. Taking estrogen partially reduces the pituitary hormone signal to the ovaries and potentially reduces testosterone production. The pituitary senses there's enough estrogen, so it doesn't send the signal for more estrogen and testosterone.



    The latest on hormone replacement therapy: An interview with a Mayo Clinic specialist


    Hormone replacement therapy: Who should take it and what are the alternatives?


    What are the side effects of testosterone replacement?

    When given in appropriate doses, there are no negative side effects. Today we can measure blood levels, so it's easier to monitor the dose. Excessive testosterone can cause acne, body hair growth and scalp hair loss in women. Excessive testosterone supplementation, such as you'll find with anabolic steroids used by athletes, also tends to drop high-density lipoprotein (HDL) cholesterol levels. That's the "good" cholesterol. Lower HDL levels increase the risk of heart disease.

    What about other androgens, such as dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA)?

    DHEA is a weak androgen or male hormone. Although it's true that DHEA levels decline with age, very few well-designed research studies show benefit from replacement. Another New England Journal of Medicine study says DHEA treatment improves sexual function in women who have underactive adrenal glands, but not many people are using the supplement for that reason. In addition, many people are taking DHEA in very large quantities. Again, excessive amounts of synthetic androgens drive down HDL cholesterol levels, which is considered a cardiovascular risk. People who are ill often have lower-than-normal DHEA or testosterone levels. This appears to be a normal physiologic response to illness and not the cause of the illness.


    March 31, 2003



    © 1998-2004 Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research (MFMER). All rights reserved. A single copy of these materials may be reprinted for noncommercial personal use only. "Mayo," "Mayo Clinic," "MayoClinic.com," "Mayo Clinic Health Information," "Reliable information for a healthier life" and the triple-shield Mayo logo are trademarks of Mayo Foundation for Medical Education and Research. Terms of Use.

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    Ir0n's Avatar
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    Bump.
    Very nice and informative read.
    Did anyone came accross a sugested TRT dose? 200mg/month seems to be high... and whats teh deal with once a month injection? The hormone levels would spike in few days and then would go down for a long time till other injection.
    Another question would be, how does the female HPTA respond to endogenous testosterone and how does it work in general?

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    Did some research on this subject as well and it looks like injections in particular are not the way to go as the general dose which is designed for males is too strong for women administration.
    found some nice info here http://mama.indstate.edu/users/anon/fsd/test.html and just by checking Google one can get loads of interesting info on this subject. I also came across that prohormone 4-androstenediol (4-adiol) can be used for the same purpose which helps to achieve a more stable blood level, doses for women should be anywhere form 10 to 50 mg.

    I still could not find the the possible injection dose of lets say cypionate for the same purpose... surely 1/3 of cc one in two weeks will give you ~41mg/week which is probably still too high, what about 2/10 of a cc administered twice a month?

    Would be nice to get some input on this.. every 0.02 cent would help.

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    Thank you Mulcibler and Ir0n for the informative article. The link I posted suggested that it could be from 50-100 MCG/month. Now Should patch be used on a daily basis or injection would be sufficient thats the question I would like to get an answer. What I have read is that it is better to use patch instead of injections. Does any body know more about these.

    I also know a lady doctor who said "Women dont have testostrones" when I asked her to give my friend a testostrone blood test (go fvcking figure).

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    100mg a month is way to high for any female unless she wants facial hair, enlarged clitoris and other manly attributes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarian View Post
    Thank you Mulcibler and Ir0n for the informative article. The link I posted suggested that it could be from 50-100 MCG/month. Now Should patch be used on a daily basis or injection would be sufficient thats the question I would like to get an answer. What I have read is that it is better to use patch instead of injections. Does any body know more about these.

    I also know a lady doctor who said "Women dont have testostrones" when I asked her to give my friend a testostrone blood test (go fvcking figure).
    Doctors...

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    calgarian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckt12345 View Post
    100mg a month is way to high for any female unless she wants facial hair, enlarged clitoris and other manly attributes.
    100 mcg thats why I put it in bold.

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    Ok so this is from teh study i've been reading about amount of test produced by women adrenal gland:

    This statistic is from Dr S. Rako's book The Hormone of Desire. According to the World Menopause Society, the relative concentrations of testosterone in men are on average 20 pico moles/litre, while women average 1.5 pico moles/litre. So male levels of the hormone are between 10-15 times those of women.

    Lets say an avarage male produces a 80mg of test a week and women produce on avarage of 6.4mg a week, so my guess is that a tiny 1/10cc injection of testosterone cyp bi-monthly would yeal and acceptable TRT amount as the administered amount would only give you around 8mg of real hormone a week, which is not that far away from the endogenous amount produced by adrenal gland... (considering cyp ester weight and that the injection will be made using 2xMonth protocol)

    What do you guys think?

    The only tough thing would be to accurately measure 1/10 of a cc...

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    mrtosa is offline Associate Member
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    You do that with and insulin .3cc sirynge and warm the gear

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    FireGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarian View Post
    100 mcg thats why I put it in bold.
    That seems extremely low considering it would take 10 doses of 100mcg to make 1mg. 1mg every 10 months??? Thats means a 250mg vial would last 208 years. The study I saw used 300mcg per day or roughly 2mg per week.

    http://www.pgpharma.com/news_20040617.shtml

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    My wife was having lots of the same symptoms you described. She was very persistant with the doctors because all they would say was, "it's low but okay", she did research and finally found a doctor that would listen. She was diagnosed with hashimoto's disease and she was put on armour and she feels great. T3 is used in the same way. I thing I read where Jiggaman spoke on this as well. I hope this helps.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 10nispro View Post
    My wife was having lots of the same symptoms you described. She was very persistant with the doctors because all they would say was, "it's low but okay", she did research and finally found a doctor that would listen. She was diagnosed with hashimoto's disease and she was put on armour and she feels great. T3 is used in the same way. I thing I read where Jiggaman spoke on this as well. I hope this helps.
    Thanks man...I dont think she has swollen thyroid.

  26. #26
    sizerp is offline Banned
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    Quote Originally Posted by calgarian View Post
    Thanks man...I dont think she has swollen thyroid.




    ...(Deca ) has very strong virilizing properties. Geusens conducted an experiment in which females were give 50mg of Deca every 3-4 weeks. Even at such an incredibly low dose, 50% of the patients experienced virilizing effects. In 1980, Heinonen and company did an experiment involving 98 women. Every single woman who was supplemented with Nandrolone Decanoate (Deca) suffered virilizing side effects. I highly recommend avoiding testosterone and Deca! (4,5,6,7)

    So what steroid can you safely use? Primobolan depot (methenolone enanthate ) is known to be an extremely safe steroid to use. Notter did an experiment in which 43 women were supplemented with 200mg of Primobolan a week. Hartmann and company conducted an experiment in which 66 women were supplemented with Primobolan. In both studies, the steroid was well tolerated. For now I suggest you stick to 100mg a week. (8,9)

    Start with 50mg of Primobolan depot per week for two weeks (note- this is Primobolan depot that I am talking about, not Primobolan acetate) if you experience no virilizing properties, I suggest you increase dosage to 100mg per week for 8 weeks. Then taper it down to 50mg per week for another 2 weeks. I suggest you also add some Clenbuterol in the stack. With this stack, it is common for women to experience a tighter body. Most women experience muscle gains in the area of 5-10 pounds during the 12-week cycle. Increased sexual cravings and faster orgasms are common side effects noted by women. A few women experience some acne and oily skin while on Primobolan Depot. How to get rid of the increased acne has already been covered in my last article, "The Complete Guide to Testosterone Usage.

    Your cycle should look something like this:

    Weeks 1 & 2: 50mg Primobolan depot per week + 3-4 tablets of Clenbuterol per day
    Weeks 3 & 4: 100mg Primobolan depot per week
    Weeks 5 & 6: 100mg Primobolan depot per week + 3-4 tablets of Clenbuterol per day
    Weeks 7 & 8: 10mg Primobolan depot per week
    Weeks 9 & 10: 100mg Primobolan depot per week + 3-4 tablets of Clenbuterol per day
    Weeks 11 & 12: 50mg Primobolan depot per week

    While on this cycle, I suggest eating 110% to 120% of your daily metabolic rate in calories. After the cycle is complete, I suggest waiting 6-8 weeks before starting over again. You may bridge this 6-8 week period with more T3&clenbuterol cycles. On subsequent cycles, you may experiment with higher doses of Primobolan depot but lower doses immediately if any virilizing occurs.

    References: 1) Wolman SI, Sheppard H, Fern M, Waterlow JC. "The effect of tri-iodothyronine (T3) on protein turnover and metabolic rate." Int J Obes 1985;9(6):459-63.

    2) Ventz M, Meng W, Franke G, Hampel R. "Effect of thyroid hormones on noradrenaline-stimulated lipolysis in obesity." Z Gesamte Inn Med 1984 Jun 15;39(12):282-4.

    3) Prather ID, Brown DE, North P, Wilson JR. "Clenbuterol: a substitute for anabolic steroids ?" Med Sci Sports Exerc 1995 Aug;27(8):1118-21.

    4) Baker J. "A report on alterations to the speaking and singing voices of four women following hormonal therapy with virilizing agents." J Voice 1999 Dec;13(4):496-507.

    5) Geusens P. "Nandrolone decanoate: pharmacological properties and therapeutic use in osteoporosis." Clin Rheumatol 1995 Sep;14 Suppl 3:32-9.

    6) Heinonen E, Alanko A, Grohn P, Rissanen P. "Nandrolone decanoate added to tamoxifen in the treatment of advanced breast cancer." Breast Cancer Res Treat 1985;5(1):75-80.

    7) Gerritsma EJ, Brocaar MP, Hakkesteegt MM, Birkenhager JC. "Virilization of the voice in post-menopausal women due to the anabolic steroid nandrolone decanoate (Decadurabolin). The effects of medication for one year." Clin Otolaryngol 1994 Feb;19(1):79-84.

    8) Notter G. "Treatment of disseminated carcinoma of the breast by metenolone enanthate." Acta Radiol Ther Phys Biol 1975 Dec;14(6):545-51.

    9) Hartmann F, Pompecki R, Desaga U, Frahm H. "Anabolic therapy in metastatic breast cancer." Med Klin 1981 Nov 20;76(24):689-91.

    Excerpt from http://forum.bodybuilding.com/archiv...?t-338183.html
    by bluestrm

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    calgarian's Avatar
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    thanks sizeRP

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    One of my girlfriends did 50mg of primo a week with 5mg of winstrol a day and 20mcg of clen she had no virilization. She loved the effect on her physique dxmn, she looked like kelley rippah. I was loving it and so was she. She had tons of energy, where as before she slept all the time and, her new body gave her all kinds of confidence. Her sex drive also went crazy, too. Her menstral cycle did reduce to minor spot bleeding, which she had no problem with. I was so happy for her. I hated to split with her but a job change made me have to move. So, I guess what I'm saying is, I don't know about test but ultra low androgens can do some amazing things for a woman.

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