reason to use nolvadex if the AI during cycle isnt enough

[Mammon]

but with tren or deca either an AI or serm could possibly not be effective

Non-aromatase related estrogenic effects from androgen use
In the past we've been pretty uniform about estrogen. Despite theories flying around about progestins, prolactin and what have you not, none showed evidence of having an effect on the development of gyno in the absence of estrogen. Therefor, the use of an anti-estrogen was sufficient to treat problems of this kind.

Gyno is a fairly infrequent problem on proper cycles, and of the number that did have problems a very few people reported it when non estrogenic drugs were used. Of those we need to take into account a lot of them probably couldn't recognize gyno and were overreacting.

Nonetheless, reports of this nature have been around for a long time and continue to persist, begging us to ask the question over and over if there is a factor we are overlooking. Here I would like to present two.

Case number 1 : The appearance of estrogenic effects with testosterone in aromatase negative mice (Ishikawa et al, 2005). This study reported the presence of estrogenic effects in the absence of aromatization, and this effect was blocked by a 5-alpha-reductase inhibitor. Meaning a metabolite of DHT is acting as an androgen. Since we already know that saturated A-ring steroids with a 3-hydroxyl group act as estrogens since 5AD is a every potent estrogen, the likely culprits include the neuroactive steroids 3alpha and 3beta androstanediol. Steckelbroeck et al (2004) demonstrated that 5beta-androstanediol is indeed and ER ligand. Now your question will likely be what the relevance of this is to gyno. Its likely less active than estrogens themselves. This is true, but estrogens are produced by aromatase and dumped into circulation and have to make their way to mammary tissue. Mammary tissue itself contains no aromatase (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/UniGene...glist=Hs.511367). 3beta-androstanediol is produced by AKR1C, and this gene is expressed directly in mammary tissue, leading to direct local conversion if DHT is present in the tissue. 5AR is also present in mammary tissue. This means despite weaker activity, the presence of the product in the tissue is likely higher.

Not only can effects of this nature not be blocked by aromatase inhibitors, they are likely worsened by aromatase inhibitors, which would increase the substrate for 5AR. This also opens the door for ER binding of 3beta derivatives of other A-ring saturated androgens. They can be treated with SERMS.

Another important issue pointed out in that study is that unlike the 3-alpha isomer, 3-beta hydroxyl are NOT converted back to DHT.

CASE 2 : the binding of Androgen receptor to estrogen response elements induced by certain ligands. I won't go into detail on this too much as I know I adressed this before. For nandrolone it has been demonstrated that it can bind the AR and cause the AR to activate estrogen-responsive genes. Nandrolone is 60% as estrogenic as estradiol itself and Aromatase inhibitors and ER-blockers and RU486 did not significantly change that number, showing that nandrolone's strong estrogenic effects are caused entirely by the androgen receptor.

Natural nandrolone is a by-product of aromatisation. Likely other 19-Nor-3-oxo steroids are capable of inducing a similar change, to a different extent.

This effect, which is androgen receptor mediated, cannot be blocked by either aromatase or SERMS.

[Immortal Soldier]

So if AI and SERMS might not be effective why are you recommending nolvadex ?

[Mammon]

nolvadex can be effective in some cases even if an AI isnt..

Not only can effects of this nature not be blocked by aromatase inhibitors, they are likely worsened by aromatase inhibitors, which would increase the substrate for 5AR. This also opens the door for ER binding of 3beta derivatives of other A-ring saturated androgens. They can be treated with SERMS

but deca can bind the AR and cause the AR to activate estrogen-responsive genes. in which case neither an AI or SERM would be effective..

[Immortal Soldier]

nolvadex can be effective in some cases even if an AI isnt..





but deca can bind the AR and cause the AR to activate estrogen-responsive genes. in which case neither an AI or SERM would be effective..

Now with Deca and Tren the threat of conversion to estrogen is not the problem (with Tren its non existent and with Deca its very low), its the prolactin pathway that is the problem, the only way estrogen enters the matrix is through the use of test to supplement either one of those steroids .

So what about Caber/Bromo and how that treats prolactin gyno? That's what I would be more worried about with 19-nor steroids. (Specifically Tren)

[Mammon]

prolactin on its own can not cause gyno.. progesterone on its own wont cause gyno.. it takes the presence of estrogen for these to become a factor.. so in most cases keeping estrogen under control will solve the issue.. igf,progesterone,GH,estrogen and prolactin all work together to cause breast growth..
progesterone does not cause estrogenic symptoms in the absence of estrogen.
now when it comes to deca , possibly all 19nor's having the ability to cause estrogenic effects via the AR , thats a whole different ballgame..
i keep estrogen under control but have had lactation due to elevated prolactin levels which caber knocked out but gyno did not occur.. and i have had issues with gyno in the past..

just thought this would be an interesting topic for debate..

[Mammon]

now is this the same with tren .. no evidence to support that, and estrogenic problems with tren are far more rare than with nandrolone , but it remains a possibility that this is a characteristic of 19-Nor steroids . methyltrienolone for example has been shown to cause segmentation of the 12th helix of the AR ligand binding domain, responsible for class I co-activator recruitment. That could explain such differential effects, in which case it does seem plausible for trenbolone as well.

[Dog-Slime]

Well if you use caber to wipe out your prolactin can the decas estrogenic effects on the AR still cause gyno or does both need to be present?

[Mammon]

seems to me estrogenic effects on the AR can still cause gyno.. at which point your screwed for a lack of a better word..

[romo6]

Very interesting.I like threads like this.I have learned alot here.Mammon your posts are informative.

[Dog-Slime]

Ok I got another question... Doesn't estrogen upregulate the androgen receptor? If so... does this mean that deca can do the same?

[Dog-Slime]

seems to me estrogenic effects on the AR can still cause gyno.. at which point your screwed for a lack of a better word..

Also, I know this may be going into the what ifs and take a guess's but if someone had deca gyno and neither caber or nolva was helping would a topical such as spiro 5% or maybe even nizoral 2% help stop the gyno? (assuming its ar related)

[Mammon]

looking into it more..
been doing a little more reading..
the unexpected estren-dependent activation of ERE-driven gene expression in cells that express AR, which occurs with far greater potency relative to DHT, predicts the possibility of some troublesome feminizing effects in males.

http://mend.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/18/5/1120

[Mammon]

thing is reading the above abstract .. a majority of this study points to the positive effects of estren on the skeletal structure. it also seems that the study seems to be relying on the mechanism of rapid conversion of estren to 19-nor not the other way around.
ehh, still interesting..
ill keep reading.. lol

[Immortal Soldier]

How rare is Caber and Bromo in the UGL/distributor community?

Several of my top sources don't carry either which is confusing since they carry everything else you could possibly name and the majority are pharmaceutical brands of Nolva, Clomid, Armidex, etc.

[Mammon]

there are a few research chem sites that have the caber.. only a few of the int guys i know have bromo tabs..

[Immortal Soldier]

there are a few research chem sites that have the caber.. only a few of the int guys i know have bromo tabs..

The people who I have talked to about the use of either caber or bromo (with caber being superior to bromo) said they didn't need to use it when they went on Tren .

So would I safe with having nolva and letro on hand?

[Mammon]

i think so.. i still like to run an AI through the cycle to keep estrogen under control.. then hit the nolvadex if i still end up with issues and nip it in the bud..
as for prolactin i just run b6 at 200mg ed (bumping it to 600 if lactation occurs) to help keep prolactin levels in check but have caber on hand just incase the b6 dont cut it..