A comment for the vets and seniors

[hammerhead]

We should recommend Andriol to newbies who want to do oral-only cycles. For a newbie Andriol would be quite powerful. For someone who only wants to do orals Andriol is a liver-friendly add-on that they should consider. It's better than trying to get a real cycle from just d-bol or anadrol . Think about it - Mr. Newbie wants to do just orals - what should we recommend? D-bol only? Anadrol only? Stack another oral with one of those? How about Andriol and d-bol? That would actually work and not kill someone in the process and you could actually keep some of those gains.

For the experienced AAS user Andriol sucks. Your test levels will peak out 2 or 3 hours after taking a cap and then taper off from there. The right way to take Andriol would be one cap every 2 to 3 hours 24 hours a day. That's a pain in the ass and it's expensive and still doesn't provide the sustained high test levels that you get from prop or enanthate . So we hate it. We give it a bad rap. It's hard to find because the big guys at the gym don't use it. For that reason it's also expensive. It just plain sucks.

But for a newbie wanting orals it's actually a pretty cool alternative to taking a whole lot of C-17AA orals.

That's my 2 cents worth.

[palme]

I have to go against you on this one. I had a friend that ran a Undestor only cycle and he didnt get anything out of it. Traning and diet was good. I think it was 200mg or 220mg ED. Imo Undestor is not worth while.

[hammerhead]

I've never heard of Undestor. I did Andriol in my first cycle and it was pretty powerful. I've not heard anything on Androxon - the only other andriol i've heard of - but Andriol itself was good to me.

[djdjdjddjon]

same here, for the most part its difficult to get, and its invonvenient in the doses that must be taken...for people who are new and are unsure the best cycle is some reading, the search function, high protein diet, and some creatine. (jmho)...

[Warrior]

In Anabolics 2002, Llewellyn shows two subjects given Andriol . The first subject showed little to no effect from the does. The second however had test levels off the scale!

I take you don't agree in taking advantage of fresh receptors?

[Rickson]

I think there are better drugs out there to take advantage of "fresh" receptors plus I think it is a mistake to encourage people not ready to use needles to take any steroids . It is no small commitment and one not ready to use needles is probably not ready to make the other sacrifices necessary in their life. I don't think any of us loved the idea of sticking a needle the first time but we did it with the knowledge that this would help us to aid with the rest of our training.

[hammerhead]

Let's back up here and put this back into perspective - i'm talking about oral-only cycles which is obviously for newbies since only a newbie would even consider one.

If you had to do an oral-only cycle what would you pick? Testosterone is a must in my cycles and andriol is the only way to get it orally.

I totally agree that andriol sucks - that's not my point - my point is that if you've decided to do an oral-only cycle and I cannot convince you to do injectables which we all know is what you should be doing - what should it be?

Is there a such thing as an oral-only cycle that's worth a damn? I don't know. But IMO andriol/d-bol is the best you can do.

Should we just not recommend oral-only cycles at all? Should we all stick to the notion that you either do injectables or don't do AAS at all?

[iron4life79]

i think i get the idea behind hh's thinking here.

i know next to nothing about andriol , as ive never had occasion to use it. that being said, a guy that wants to run a cycle, but dosent want to stick himself is going to try to run some sort of cycle anyways.
why not give him the heads up on andriol as a compliment to whatever other orals hes going to run?
after all, if hes going to run some sort of half assed cycle anyways, might as well try to make it a little better, as well as a little safer for him.

i agree that if you arent ready to inject, then you plain arent ready, but some will move forward with whatever they have or can do without injecting. of course i could also be way off here..........

peace bb79

[RON]

I see what your trying to do here but I don't agree. I think if you don't have the commitment to overcome your fear you don't have the commitment to be on steroids . This is a dangerous game we play and we don't want people jumping in half-hearted. Its all or nothing IMO. I have found in real life that those dedicated enough will overcome their needle fear. Those who don't should stay away from the life.

[djdjdjddjon]

exactly my point, reading, research, protein, and creatine is a real nice cycle when youre not ready to jab... ;-)

[trimunex]

Hey HH .. I just want to say great thread. This is exactly the type of conversation that I enjoy reading here at AR. It's good to see some quality Bros weigh in with opposing yet sensible views.

On the topic, I'd have to say I see the point made that we should try our best to inform newbies of their best & safest options even when looking at oral cycles only. However, I still believe like many others that if one isn't ready for injections, then they're not ready for steroids . Like ..djdjon, I'll stick to telling them to stay with "quaility" supps until they are ready for the pins. Anyway, I hope to see more opinions on this topic .. especially from some of the Bro's who've been around for a while.

9

[djdjdjddjon]

agreed with my brother trimunex, always good to see quality debates...lets keep the opinions rolling

[m16a2]

This is a good thread, so I'll offer my opinion on the question. From what I have seen, there are alot of newbies who come on here and post that they have been using orals and made gains off them. They continue to explain their problems and ask for advice. I don't know if anyone still remembers that one guy who was 'taking sustanon 250' which turned out to be dbol tabs in a sustanon box. I think when newbies decide to take 'steroids ' they usually think orals, and the most common are dbol or another 17-aa which will only benefit them (in the long run) if they are stacking them. The point is that they have not educated themselves in the subject of AS, and they have not done enough research. HH, I think that you are trying to find something that we can say to these guys who initially refuse to 'mess with needles', but I don't think we should offer any advice to them, except to research and learn more. The decision to use AS in their training should be one that is well researched and that person needs to weigh the benefits vs. the risks. The easy solution is to tell them to use andriol , but the better solution is to tell them to use the search function and start learning more.

[Warrior]

It depends on the goal of the athlete too. Endurance, strength, deffinition, rehab or simply weight gain. As well as the reason: Track, Bodybuilding, Powerlifting, Boxing... Bowling

[goldenear]

I'll chime in with my response since I've actually used Andriol . FYI, Undestor is just an Organon brand name of testosterone undecanoate. This product will carry various brand names based on the country of origin.

(1) Andriol is not useless. It does work and that's a fact. Another fact is the medication MUST be refrigerated prior to consumption. So if your source picks it up from a pharamacy and then lets it sit around at room temperature for a few months before you buy it, guess what...you've just bought a "useless" drug. The labeling on the package is very clear on the refrigeration issue.

(2) Andriol is certainly more effective at raising testosterone levels than any prohormone supplement out there. This is prescription medication that has been used for decades in HRT applications. If it didn't work, Organon would have pulled the plug a long time ago.

(3) The reason it's so expensive (if you call $0.30 a capsule expensive) is probably due to the fact that there is no generic substitute for the medication. Organon is free to charge whatever it wants.

(4) A "safe" oral med is not a substitute for thorough research. Although Andriol is not liver toxic, there are other complications that can arise from prolonged elevated testosterone levels. The user had better be fully aware of the possible side effects and seek professional medical help for periodic health examinations and blood work. If you are unwilling to do your homework and have periodic healthcare analyses, you have no business self-prescribing ANY medication.

(5) I tapered with Andriol after my last test enanthate cycle. I really liked the fact that my body dumped a gallon of enanthate bloat, yet I maintained strength throughout and even experienced a slight HPTA recovery. Libido was excellent 4-5 weeks after the final enanthate injection - just when you typically crash pretty hard after a highly androgenic cycle.

Just because Andriol doesn't yield 20 pounds of bloat in 3 weeks ala dbol doesn't mean it isn't working. This medication can be very beneficial even to injectable users in specific situations.

[jeffylyte]

I like this thread along with goldenears comments (with which I agree). Another key point IMO, is the fact for some athletes, injectables can be a pain depending on their residence time in the body. Many of the newbies may be trying to get bigger, faster, etc for football or such and have to worry about testing. without going into the ethics of such performance enhancement, andriol may be a better best if one is worried about this issue. other than prop, andiol is the only test with a decently short half-life, add to that the fact that so little is actually absorbed, and one could better the odds of not getting caught with proper planning (ie running a cycle during the summer, but stopping before fall practice). having never done a cycle for a sport, I cant say much to this, but any other bro's with ideas?

[hammerhead]

One of the main reasons i'm bringing this up is because regardless of whether or not you personally believe a newbie should receive advice or not on an oral-only cycle - someone out there does - and someone out there will offer that advice. Far too often that advice is to stack a bunch of C17-AA orals together. Far too often - despite the warnings against it - newbies may go out and take too much d-bol or anadrol or take it for way too long or stack too many orals together. Andriol does work and it is not alkylated and is not hepata-toxic. It makes perfect sense to stack it into whatever you're taking if you're going to do an oral-only cycle. I don't recommend that anyone do an oral-only cycle. But when there's a thread out there with people trying to help someone put one together I make it a point to point out Andriol as a good option. I've seen at least 3 in the last month or so and if my memory serves me well I was the only one who mentioned Andriol as an option. Help me out here guys!

[Warrior]

After reading about Andriol being completely useless for some people I think it looks like a russian roulette with your cycle, and money. You might hit a successful round - but you could also get an empty chamber I read that in Anabolics 2002, as stated in my first post in this thread. Two subjects given Andriol - one resonded off the chart, and the other had no response to it at all.

Personally all it takes is for me to read something to that nature once from a reputable source and not be interested in it. Also, it is not too often available as is many other choices... like Dbol , or Deca .

Who made the Andriol that you say works? Organon?

[Cycleon]

if its oral only - go with 40mgs ED of Anavar - cant go wrong ro cheap mans way of 50mgs Dbol + arimdex ED

[chicamahomico]

I am curious to why no one choose winstrol . Seems like it is the choice of many athletes, and not everyone wants/needs massive rapid weight gain ala dbol or a-50. Everytime you hear of an athlete testing positive seems like its for stanozolol or nandrolone .

[hammerhead]

Originally posted by Warrior
After reading about Andriol being completely useless for some people I think it looks like a russian roulette with your cycle, and money. You might hit a successful round - but you could also get an empty chamber I read that in Anabolics 2002, as stated in my first post in this thread. Two subjects given Andriol - one resonded off the chart, and the other had no response to it at all.

Personally all it takes is for me to read something to that nature once from a reputable source and not be interested in it. Also, it is not too often available as is many other choices... like Dbol , or Deca .

Who made the Andriol that you say works? Organon?

Yes - Organon. I bought it in Mexico from a pharmacia and refrigerated it from the day I bought it. I wonder if this had anything to do with the effectiveness?

The more we talk about this the more I feel like just telling people to stick a needle or go buy something from GNC. I don't like the idea of d-bol-only or anavar -only cycles any more than the idea of doing Andriol-roulette. I certainly don't like the idea of stacking more than one C17AA in one cycle!

[OGPackin]

I agree with Rickson here. And after reading BC's profile on it id say theres better AS out there.

Originally posted by Rickson
I think there are better drugs out there to take advantage of "fresh" receptors plus I think it is a mistake to encourage people not ready to use needles to take any steroids. It is no small commitment and one not ready to use needles is probably not ready to make the other sacrifices necessary in their life. I don't think any of us loved the idea of sticking a needle the first time but we did it with the knowledge that this would help us to aid with the rest of our training.

OG

Andriol is a fairly recently developed steroid . A new attempt at making an orally available testosterone , the first since the very unpopular methyl-testosterone. The delivery system used for andriol is quite novel in itself and shows a lot of promise. If it weren't for a few quirks I'm sure this delivery method could have caught on fast. The crude methyl-testosterone was the first of many oral steroids delivered by way of a 17-alpha-methyl alteration to the base compound. Apart from changing the affinity for a lot a structures, making a steroid with completely different characteristics, the main problem here was that it invoked a level of hepatoxicity. Often minor, sometimes severe (anadrol , Halotestin ). This meant that treatment could not be continued for extended periods of time in complete safety. The demand for an oral steroid that can be used for lengthy treatment has been high since the very beginning. First of all its never easy for a doctor to sell his patients on injection protocols (many fear or at least dislike needles) and for the doctor too it would be easier if the patient could take a pill than to have him come back every other week for an injection. So the pressure was on to create a steroid that wouldn't require a 17-alpha-methyl alteration.

The answer was to seek a new way of delivery, that bypassed the liver, so that no alteration was needed to protect the steroid from being deactivated in the liver. That way was found in lymphatic absorption. As with many paths of uptake, this one too is very specific and limited. The lymphatic system is a series of heavily filtered channels intended for the resorption of water. When blood is delivered to a tissue through the arterial system, it is depleted of oxygen and nutrients, and then lead back to the heart by the venous system. Unfortunately only about 85% of the fluid is readily re-absorbed. That means 15% stays behind in the tissue and if that process where to continue day and night, we'd all swell up like Marshmallow man and explode in less than a week. That's why, inside tissues, there is another extended capillary system other than the cardiovascular one. The lymphatic system. This has the sole purpose of draining water from tissue. This is why it mostly only transports water. Its also heavily filtered by lymph nodes throughout the body that will remove almost everything, because the system is easily accessible and if not properly filtered a virus or cancer cell could easily spread throughout the body in this manner. But in the digestive tract it seems the lymph system makes an exception. Lymph fluid is usually clear (since its pure water), but in this area its troubled. That's because it appears to absorb oils and fats as well.

Steroids are made from the prime storage of fat in the body, cholesterol. So there is a definite possibility here. And the lymphatic system, for 75-80%, empties itself in the major duct (ductus thoracicus), which in turn empties itself in the angulus venosus, where the vena jugularis interna (internal jugular vein) and the vena subclavia (vein below the collarbone) meet, right before they enter the heart through a common vein. That means, without having to pass the liver, these fats can be delivered straight to the heart. Now the question is, if indeed it was readily absorbed by the lymphatic system, why alter a steroid at all to survive the liver ? Obviously it doesn't get through to any great extent. That's because it absorbs only actual fats. This carrier therefore targets the solution of the steroid in an oil, so that it will be absorbed with the oil. It also seeks to make the compound more lipophillic so solution is more complete and permanent. As we also learned from injectable steroids, the way to make a compound more lipophillic is by attaching an ester. The longer the ester is, the more lipophillic it makes the steroid. In this case they opted for an undecanoate ester, which has a length of 11 carbons, the longest ester used to date.

In this case we are talking about a testosterone undecanoate. It is dissolved in a type of sterile oil and then sealed inside a cap. As a whole, the dissolved steroid is then easily absorbed by the lymphatic system, prior to passing the liver, and delivered with ease to the heart where it is then sent out across the body. The system itself is ingenious and in theory perfect. Maximal delivery and no hepatoxicity. A potent steroid capable of being used for long treatments. However (I'm sure you saw that one coming) in practice things don't always turn out the way they appear in theory. In studies1 done on both men and women, andriol was shown to be a mild and inconsistent steroid at best. Mild is a problem that is easily solved with higher doses, but inconsistent is another story entirely. It seems that the amount that was delivered and the peak levels of testosterone in the blood as well as the length of activity, differed not only from person to person, but from day to day. That means a different person, from day to day, will get very varying levels of testosterone in the blood. And the differences were not minor.

One subject may have a peak level of 5 ng/mmol while another can have in excess of 50 ng/mmol. What's worse, the same person may get these levels on different days. In terms of its anabolic (ie non-medical) use, that means doses of 8-16 caps per day are being used. That's more than most will inject per week of the shorter cypionate and enanthate esters. Normally 1 cap delivers 40 mg of testosterone undecanoate. An ester releases the steroid in the blood, leaving us with approximately 25 mg of testosterone per cap (it's a long and heavy ester). That's 200-400 mg per day being used, and andriol being as novel as it is, isn't cheap or easy to come by. That makes it, at best, just as uninteresting as methyl-testosterone.

As far as the properties of this steroid go, like a propionate ester or a suspension injection, levels of testosterone, DHT and estrogen are easy to control, which makes this steroid a possibility for use during any time of the year, whether the athlete be cutting or bulking. The water retention is less notable than with longer esters, and if too high is easily controlled with Proviron or Nolvadex . Its pure testosterone, so if delivered in high enough doses, for reasons previously stated, it is of course a good mass builder with all the characteristics of testosterone. No more no less. It is of course a safe (to the liver), controllable oral steroid that can be used for extended periods of time, which does spark the interest of some, but anybody serious about gains will usually find andriol a very poor buy. Great invention for the medical world, but of little to no interest to the serious athlete.

Stacking and Use:

Andriol doesn't have that many uses. When utilized in doses of 8-16 caps per day are used and it can obviously be stacked with most any other steroid. Water retention problems that are common with testosterone are usually controllable enough to warrant use even during cutting phases, and even if not Proviron can be added to maximize its potential. The use of ancillaries is generally not required as its very mild to begin with and most problems can be solved by discontinuing use or lowering the dose. The usual anti-estrogens can be used, but generally with the cost of andriol for what little it does makes it less appealing to invest in the likes of Nolvadex or arimidex .

Caps are best spread out throughout the day. Most oral steroids have a 17-alpha-methyl alteration that changes affinity and binding of the steroid, so that a single dose is usually enough. With andriol delivery is swift, peak doses high, but the steroid never outlasts its half-life of 3-5 hours. So it should be taken in three equal doses throughout the day, preferably with meals as lymphatic absorption is promoted in the presence of bile and other secretions in the GI tract.

[EXCESS]

I've hated needles ever since I was a little kid, but injecting is fine for me because I know its the only way to get decent results. If someone can't suck it up and get over the fear like I did they might as well not take anything at all.

I can't suggest a half-assed cycle to anyone. Do it right or don't do it at all.

[D_BEAR]

ANAVAR = OXADROLONE
VERY GOOD TO STACK WITH WINNY TABS DONT GO OVER 25 MG'S PER DAY ON THE WINNY TABS
ALSO PROVIRON WHICH DOES NOT EFFECT NATURAL TEST LEVELS
ALSO D-BOL TABS ARE GOOD JUST USE WITH OXADROLONE
CAUSE IT WILL HELP WITH THE BAD EFFECTS OF THE D-BOL
GO TO WWW.GOOGLE.COM
AND DO A SEARCH FOR ORAL STEROID CYCLES
THEN DO YOUR RESEARCH AND MAKE YOUR MIND UP
ITS YOUR BODY
BUT I WOULD DO NONE OF THE 17 STEROIDS WITH OUT TAKIN THE OXADROLONE
THATS FOR SURE
CLOMID WOULD BE GOOD CAUSE IT RAISES YOUR NATURAL TEST LEVELS AND IF YOU RAISE THEM A GOOD AMOUNT YOU ALSO WANNA TAKE SOME PROVIRON AS A ESTROGEN BLOCKER CAUSE NATURAL TEST MAKES YOU PRODUCE ESTROGENE TOO
sorry bout the caps
hey do your research first
if you have good genes you could make good gains from oral cycle
i did i was a little heavy so i did nothing but orals for 2 months and lost weight before i done any injectin
good luck to you it would help if you would give body stats when you ask these kind of questions

[hitmeoff]

Im a big pussy when it comes to needles.

Even though I have done a cycle in the past where I was doing ED shots for 6 weeks, and even though im in a middle of a 12 week cycle where Im doing ED shots, I still hate those few minutes before I jab myself. I still get nervous. But I do it, because as Excess says, its the only way to make real, sane, relatively safe gains.

However lets be realistic. A guy comes on here for advice, he gets NO advice, or very little advice, he is still going to go out and run a cycle, and at best get no real results and at worst end up hurting himself. Once a person decides to do steroids , theres very little we can do to convince them other wise. So I think hammerhead has an idea here. Instead of giving NO advice on all orals, we should try to construct the best all oral cycle possible. I do think Andriol can be part of something like that.

Something like Andriol + Var + Provirion would be good. Andriol + Var to build some keepable strength and mass, and the provirion for its anti-e properties and for its ability to bind with the SHBG to allow more free Test to run in the system.

[ironfist]

Originally posted by Rickson
I think there are better drugs out there to take advantage of "fresh" receptors plus I think it is a mistake to encourage people not ready to use needles to take any steroids. It is no small commitment and one not ready to use needles is probably not ready to make the other sacrifices necessary in their life. I don't think any of us loved the idea of sticking a needle the first time but we did it with the knowledge that this would help us to aid with the rest of our training.

I agree with ya there...I've also used andriol and it's a waste of time and money...They are better off with prohormones until they can suck it up....