1st cycle?

[learnerdriver]

Hi i've been looking into test e for a first cycle and decided on 400mg per week, injected at 200mg x2 per week. It's the pct that i'm unsure about, i would have nolva on hand for after cycle but would tapering be more preferable e.g. after 12 week cycle follow with 6 weeks 100mg then reduce by 20mg per week.

Would this be adequate to keep gains and reduce other sides.

[jbm]

age?
height?
weight?
body fat%?
years training?

[learnerdriver]

27
6ft
166
10%
2

Am not looking to cycle yet cause i want to add a fair bit more natty weight, am just researching.

[jbm]

Better 500mg a week. IMO!

nolva and clomid for PCT 14 days after last shot of test e.

Gains would be dependent on your training, diet and rest.

As of now eat eat and eat...

[learnerdriver]

ok thanks

[T-MOS]

How many times are we gonna go round and round with your first cycle?

I would just go 500 too, not much difference between 400 and 500 so might as well just do 500

[Matt]

No need to taper bro, however id love to see your diet, at 6ft 166lbs i think theres room for improvement before a cycle..

[learnerdriver]

Thanks for the info guys, T-MOS, the question was more based on tapering rather than what to cycle. I never did get a definative answer as to why 500mg is the lowest amount required, only that there is not much difference between the 2 but there's not much difference between 500mg and 600mg or 600mg and 700mg etc. Am just trying to base my learning around safety rather than more is better. I've posted my diet up before but haven't measured exact amounts yet.

Do you guys not take into account bone structures, muscle bodies etc, cause i feel there's more to the size thing than height. I have put on a fair bit of muscle (there's much more gains i can make) but my weight does not accurately reflect this it seems. I know that if i weighed 190/200 i would look somewhat oversized for my frame. You don't seem to consider things like ectomorphs and endo's as different sizes/shapes and therefore differing goals.

[Hunter]

Thanks for the info guys, T-MOS, the question was more based on tapering rather than what to cycle. I never did get a definative answer as to why 500mg is the lowest amount required, only that there is not much difference between the 2 but there's not much difference between 500mg and 600mg or 600mg and 700mg etc. Am just trying to base my learning around safety rather than more is better. I've posted my diet up before but haven't measured exact amounts yet.

Do you guys not take into account bone structures, muscle bodies etc, cause i feel there's more to the size thing than height. I have put on a fair bit of muscle (there's much more gains i can make) but my weight does not accurately reflect this it seems. I know that if i weighed 190/200 i would look somewhat oversized for my frame. You don't seem to consider things like ectomorphs and endo's as different sizes/shapes and therefore differing goals.

There are a ton of different body types and frames as you say...however that has everything to do with the type of diet you run not the amount of muscle you can pack on. Frank Zane, Dorian Yates, Lee priest. All three cover of those bodybuilders cover the three different types of builds. Now as far as goals you need to list your goals since no one here is a mind reader. Bodybuilding wise your a long ways off, fitness model also a long ways off. I am not slamming you at all becouse we all start someone but you put in the hard work long before you ever touch steroids. I understand and think its great that your researching and want to be prepared for your first cycle. However you would be much better of researching diet and training as of right now. I wish you all the best luck in reaching your goals.

[learnerdriver]

Hi mn fighter, thanks for the response, i do try to spend a lot of time in the diet and training forums but interest seems to pull me towards researching roids from time to time. My goals are to increase muscle mass and strength but also remain fit, healthy and not lose my speed. I am thinking of doing boxing again and i don't want to lose any dexterity. It's ok your not slamming me i am a long way off. Am not trying to rely on the hardgainer route cause i think it's bull but i just think some peeps on here want everyone to be 200 pounds before thinking about a cycle but 200 pounds is quite hefty and is not based on height.

[learnerdriver]

I disagree that diet creates body shapes, nature does. No matter how much you eat of the right stuff your not going to look like frank zane if you 6ft 2 with massive bone structure. I agree that diet plays a major part in the development of the individual but does not create the individual.

E.g. 5ft 10 guy with small shoulder width and small wrists, tendons and muscle bellies
vs a 5ft 10 guy with large shoulder width and large wrist, tendons and muscle bellies.

These dimensions cannot be changed and therefore the natural progressions in size are going to be rather different even if they eat the same.

[Phate]

I disagree that diet creates body shapes, nature does. No matter how much you eat of the right stuff your not going to look like frank zane if you 6ft 2 with massive bone structure. I agree that diet plays a major part in the development of the individual but does not create the individual.

E.g. 5ft 10 guy with small shoulder width and small wrists, tendons and muscle bellies
vs a 5ft 10 guy with large shoulder width and large wrist, tendons and muscle bellies.

These dimensions cannot be changed and therefore the natural progressions in size are going to be rather different even if they eat the same.

not quite true, you can easily change these things

i would still like to see your diet because the bottom line is this, at 6ft tall you should be much more than 166lbs before you cycle(i know you said you aren't going to cycle) so this means that either: your diet is off, your training is off, you have a condition that makes it very difficult to gain weight(hyperthyroidism for example) or a combination of the three

[Immortal Soldier]

not quite true, you can easily change these things

i would still like to see your diet because the bottom line is this, at 6ft tall you should be much more than 166lbs before you cycle(i know you said you aren't going to cycle) so this means that either: your diet is off, your training is off, you have a condition that makes it very difficult to gain weight(hyperthyroidism for example) or a combination of the three

Agreed

Not to mention your body is symmetric both height wise and width wise. If you spread your arms out and measure from tip to tip you get your height.

So to widen yourself is def possible by doing correct shoulder/back exercises. Most average lifters don't give back the attention it deserves, it's a shame it makes you like a hell of a lot bigger.

[learnerdriver]

I am gaining pefectly fine at the mo so am happy. I used to weigh 133 when i was way under weight. I zoomed up to 154 no problem, ridiculously quickly because of the lack of weight. From 154 to 166lbs took quite a while of learning to improve on my diet etc. Now am eating 5-6 meals a day and consistently good foods. Why would my diet/training be off if i'm gaining, i have to be 166 at some point along my journey surely. I think you guys see me as someone struggling with gains rather than someone on a building journey.

[Reed]

It may not be that his diet and training is off

just hasn't had enough time to progress

you can't go from 160-200 with a great diet in 6 months or even a year... especially naturally

[Immortal Soldier]

I am gaining pefectly fine at the mo so am happy. I used to weigh 133 when i was way under weight. I zoomed up to 154 no problem, ridiculously quickly because of the lack of weight. From 154 to 166lbs took quite a while of learning to improve on my diet etc. Now am eating 5-6 meals a day and consistently good foods. Why would my diet/training be off if i'm gaining, i have to be 166 at some point along my journey surely. I think you guys see me as someone struggling with gains rather than someone on a building journey.

Because at your height in high school, I remember it like it was yesterday. The summer of Junior year, I went from 134 to 172 in about 4 months than trimmed off the fat and still stood at 172 around 12% body fat, by the end of the year I was standing at 180 13% body fat.

Everyone thought I did steroids and the funny thing was it took me 5 months just to get my DIET down, before I was just eating any meaty food that wasn't junk food.

The point is, 6'0 and 166lbs is not a weight to start cycling on when you could easily add 20lbs naturally.


If you want a little 'boost' go the pro-hormone route before you take the steroid route.

[Hunter]

I disagree that diet creates body shapes, nature does. No matter how much you eat of the right stuff your not going to look like frank zane if you 6ft 2 with massive bone structure. I agree that diet plays a major part in the development of the individual but does not create the individual.

E.g. 5ft 10 guy with small shoulder width and small wrists, tendons and muscle bellies
vs a 5ft 10 guy with large shoulder width and large wrist, tendons and muscle bellies.

These dimensions cannot be changed and therefore the natural progressions in size are going to be rather different even if they eat the same.

You misunderstood what I meant and after re-reading that particular part I worded it poorly. I agree genitics determine your frame and metabolism. What I meant is you can add muscle, thickness, etc no matter what type of frame or bodytype you have. The bodytype you have determines the kind of diet you should follow.

[learnerdriver]

Thank you Reed, the exact point i was making. I have a friend whom is the same height as me but his shoulders are massively wider and he weighs far more than me, he does not eat that great or train, yes some is fat but still my point is to what extent can one build muscle based on there frame. Where does your personal natural potential end, it is not based on your height that's for sure. If my friend trained and slimmed down a bit lol he would look bigger and possibly better than me in a short period, it is clear that is potential in size far exceeds mine but we are the same height. Am no where near my genetic potential but 200lbs natural is not a realistic aim for my size of frame, am not saying it's impossible just rather difficult. My friend would reach it without much hassle, but he would struggle to keep trim.
Bit of a rant but i feel people sshould not be put in boxes of height, there is more info needed. Probably my fault for not giving that info so conclusion AM A DUMBASS!!

[Immortal Soldier]

Thank you Reed, the exact point i was making. I have a friend whom is the same height as me but his shoulders are massively wider and he weighs far more than me, he does not eat that great or train, yes some is fat but still my point is to what extent can one build muscle based on there frame. Where does your personal natural potential end, it is not based on your height that's for sure. If my friend trained and slimmed down a bit lol he would look bigger and possibly better than me in a short period, it is clear that is potential in size far exceeds mine but we are the same height. Am no where near my genetic potential but 200lbs natural is not a realistic aim for my size of frame, am not saying it's impossible just rather difficult. My friend would reach it without much hassle, but he would struggle to keep trim.
Bit of a rant but i feel people sshould not be put in boxes of height, there is more info needed. Probably my fault for not giving that info so conclusion AM A DUMBASS!!

If you cannot get to 180-190 at 6'0 naturally then something is wrong bro, that is not that hard at 6'0, I am 6'1.

[BigIce]

It depends on our frame more then anything IMO

If I where ever to reach 180-190 I would look like the HULK, only at 5´8"

[Immortal Soldier]

It depends on our frame more then anything IMO

If I where ever to reach 180-190 I would look like the HULK, only at 5´8"

I am 6'1, small wrists, thin waist (32"), and small ankles.

Yet my back is wide as hell and my frame width is wide as hell. So it comes down to diet and exercise like I said.

[learnerdriver]

How small are your wrists? I have a 28" waist, 32 inches is not that small. I have 6.5 inch wrists, very long arms etc, i do understand what your getting at Immortal because i am seeing the changes slowly develop, as i thicken up i don't look so stretched, my forearms are starting to give me more definition throughout my arm but it will never change the fact that my forearm muscle is so short. When i tense my bicep am always gonna have a big gap of nothing at the bottom, it's just genetics.