Cut first, then bulk? Or vice versa?

[GT2]

Edit

[jimmyinkedup]

id say depends on when you want to "peak" ...JMO....

[marcus300]

I'm going to be running Tren E 400mg/week for week 1-10 with TRT dose of Test Cyp 200mg/week for week 1-12.

I will also be running clen to speed up the cutting process.

At the moment I'm 5'8, 205lbs, about 14% bodyfat.

Should I cut first, THEN run my clean bulking cycle?

Or do my bulking cycle first, THEN cut?

If you cut before a bulking cycle you will be in a far better position to build quality muscle. When cutting you dont need aload of compounds do the cut via diet and cardio and create a very anabolic environment for when you start the bulk.

[GT2]

edit

[GT2]

edit

[jimmyinkedup]

well marcus' point aside .....id bulk then cut...JMO...maybe do a short prime prior to bulk to maximize cycle benefit .... JMO

[GT2]

edit

[marcus300]

This was exactly what my rationale behind doing a cutter before a bulker. It seems we have a winner, but I'm open to hear more suggestions.

If you check out how much muscle contest guys put on after a show you will understand my theory regarding cut then bulk, when you cut you create a hugh anabolic window for muscle tissue to grow and if your fresh enough the body will build hugh amounts in a short period of time when you couple a bulking cycle with a bulking diet straight after a cut, if you bulk then cut your muscle to bodyfat ratio is out and you will tend to lay down further fat storage rather than build quality muscle.

Thing to do is try on method this time around and log results and compare.

[jimmyinkedup]

well considering time constraint id say 30-45 days...then cycle...id think you could look awesome by say jan with prime / cycle / time off/cut cycle .... JMO

[GT2]

edit

[jimmyinkedup]

^^^ keep us posted..i too am interested in hearing how this turns out.....good info....
i question how you will "peak" at desired time this way ...but overall mass gain etc ..it does make sense ...

[D7M]

If you check out how much muscle contest guys put on after a show you will understand my theory regarding cut then bulk, when you cut you create a hugh anabolic window for muscle tissue to grow and if your fresh enough the body will build hugh amounts in a short period of time when you couple a bulking cycle with a bulking diet straight after a cut, if you bulk then cut your muscle to bodyfat ratio is out and you will tend to lay down further fat storage rather than build quality muscle.

Thing to do is try on method this time around and log results and compare.

Yep, this is by far the superior method.

[GT2]

edit

[jimmyinkedup]

^ *L* i know the feeling ..and with a lean bulk...that cycle u have planned etc...could be very impressive....
and a thanks to marcus again for the info....

[Drake Hotel]

If you check out how much muscle contest guys put on after a show you will understand my theory regarding cut then bulk, when you cut you create a hugh anabolic window for muscle tissue to grow and if your fresh enough the body will build hugh amounts in a short period of time when you couple a bulking cycle with a bulking diet straight after a cut, if you bulk then cut your muscle to bodyfat ratio is out and you will tend to lay down further fat storage rather than build quality muscle.

Thing to do is try on method this time around and log results and compare.

If that is so it's because of proper chemistry. Clean/naturally, a dieted down person who's lost mostly fat mass will also gain mostly fat mass when putting weight back on. If that same person had lost mostly lean mass he would gain mostly lean mass when putting weight back on.

[GT2]

edit

[GT2]

edit

[Drake Hotel]

Whether or not I agree with that statement, I won't be bulking clean/naturally

I don't doubt that Question is what you'll use during the bulk phase. You mentioned you'll use clen when cutting, but if you want what marcus300 mentioned, a sort of "muscle mass rebound" when resuming a caloric surplus, my guess is that you'd have to use clen in the bulking phase as well to get those results; at least plenty of coffee and eph + cardio. I mean preferably GH + clen on top of your standard AAS gear would be optimal.

[marcus300]

If that is so it's because of proper chemistry. Clean/naturally, a dieted down person who's lost mostly fat mass will also gain mostly fat mass when putting weight back on. If that same person had lost mostly lean mass he would gain mostly lean mass when putting weight back on.

I completely disagree with this statement, the guy who as lost fat mass will not just put on fat mass when he bulks, that depends on his diet.

When you prime the body correctly you put it in a very anabolic state and if you couple this with a bulking cycle and clean diet you will build quality muscle tissue not fat mass,

[Drake Hotel]

I completely disagree with this statement, the guy who as lost fat mass will not just put on fat mass when he bulks, that depends on his diet.

When you prime the body correctly you put it in a very anabolic state and if you couple this with a bulking cycle and clean diet you will build quality muscle tissue not fat mass,

Certainly diet's gonna make a difference, but you still gain mainly the same type of mass that you lost.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3086592

[marcus300]

Certainly diet's gonna make a difference, but you still gain mainly the same type of mass that you lost.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3086592

If that was true you would never change your body composition, thats the whole idea around AAS/diets/training, ive done it many times and i would think the majority of guys on here have lost body fat and built muscle tissue, thats a complete joke to be honest.

[sigman roid]

If that is so it's because of proper chemistry. Clean/naturally, a dieted down person who's lost mostly fat mass will also gain mostly fat mass when putting weight back on. If that same person had lost mostly lean mass he would gain mostly lean mass when putting weight back on.

i certainly dont agree

[marcus300]

Its not even worth debating, of course you can diet down and reduce the bodyfat and build muscle tissue via training and diet and with the addition of drugs you can seriously have an anabolic advantage when it comes to building muscle, what your saying is utter garbage.

[Drake Hotel]

Its not even worth debating, of course you can diet down and reduce the bodyfat and build muscle tissue via training and diet and with the addition of drugs you can seriously have an anabolic advantage when it comes to building muscle, what your saying is utter garbage.

I didn't say any of that. I said that naturally dieted down individuals will gain back mostly what they lost. Of course they will also gain some muscle, otherwise no one would be able to build more mass once they've dieted, but the point is that if you lose mostly fat when you diet down, then that's what you're mostly gonna gain when you bulk up again. The body's not gonna be primed to turn whatever you put in it into muscle.

What I also said is that that all changes with drugs, which is a given. What I never said was that drugs can't give a seriously anabolic advantage.

[marcus300]

I didn't say any of that. I said that naturally dieted down individuals will gain back mostly what they lost. Of course they will also gain some muscle, otherwise no one would be able to build more mass once they've dieted, but the point is that if you lose mostly fat when you diet down, then that's what you're mostly gonna gain when you bulk up again. The body's not gonna be primed to turn whatever you put in it into muscle.

What I also said is that that all changes with drugs, which is a given. What I never said was that drugs can't give a seriously anabolic advantage.

Utter rubbish, of course you can diet down and reduce the bodyfat and build muscle tissue via training and diet you have no idea what your talking about, you might aswell say to fat guys stay fat because your going to put the fat back on anyway when you try to bulk up again,

Have you escaped from hospital or something?

[Drake Hotel]

Utter rubbish, of course you can diet down and reduce the bodyfat and build muscle tissue via training and diet

Again, I never said otherwise.

you have no idea what your talking about, you might aswell say to fat guys stay fat because your going to put the fat back on anyway when you try to bulk up again,

Have you escaped from hospital or something?

Why would I say that? Dieted down individual can certainly work out to become big and lean, but it will take longer time and they'd have to be more careful about diet.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/906

Good article by Lyle McDonald on this very subject: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...n-changes.html

[marcus300]

If that is so it's because of proper chemistry. Clean/naturally, a dieted down person who's lost mostly fat mass will also gain mostly fat mass when putting weight back on. If that same person had lost mostly lean mass he would gain mostly lean mass when putting weight back on.

Its clear what your saying, you written it in black and white above

Certainly diet's gonna make a difference, but you still gain mainly the same type of mass that you lost.

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3086592

Again here

I didn't say any of that. I said that naturally dieted down individuals will gain back mostly what they lost. Of course they will also gain some muscle, otherwise no one would be able to build more mass once they've dieted, but the point is that if you lose mostly fat when you diet down, then that's what you're mostly gonna gain when you bulk up again. The body's not gonna be primed to turn whatever you put in it into muscle.

What I also said is that that all changes with drugs, which is a given. What I never said was that drugs can't give a seriously anabolic advantage.

Again here

Again, I never said otherwise.




Why would I say that? Dieted down individual can certainly work out to become big and lean, but it will take longer time and they'd have to be more careful about diet.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/88/4/906

Good article by Lyle McDonald on this very subject: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/mus...n-changes.html

Now you completely change your mind, I dont need to read studies, its plain and simple that what you said was wrong, you can diet down and lose body fat and build muscle tissue via training and diet, we all do it one way or the other,

[Drake Hotel]

Now you completely change your mind, I dont need to read studies, its plain and simple that what you said was wrong, you can diet down and lose body fat and build muscle tissue via training and diet, we all do it one way or the other,

Then I must have expressed myself very sloppily because I meant to say the same thing all along But you're making it all about semantics and seem to lose focus on the whole priming thing. You said that after dieting down, the body is primed for a state of mostly lean gains, while I said it's primed to put the fat back on. You can't honestly mean to say that it's NOT a negative to once have been "fat", or rather, "non-lean", and then overfeed, as opposed to a person who's never been "non-lean"? "dieted individuals typically show a biology that is absolutely not geared towards anything except packing the body fat back on. Typically, the metabolic consequences of dieting include a lowered metabolism, decreased fat oxidation, decreased HSL activity, increased LPL activity impaired hormonal status (including lowered testosterone and raised cortisol), decreased thermogenesis from a reduction in both thyroid levels and nervous system output and a host of other metabolic defects. All of these serve to both slow fat loss during the diet and ensure rapid fat regain when food is reintroduced."

[marcus300]

Then I must have expressed myself very sloppily because I meant to say the same thing all along But you're making it all about semantics and seem to lose focus on the whole priming thing. You said that after dieting down, the body is primed for a state of mostly lean gains, while I said it's primed to put the fat back on. You can't honestly mean to say that it's NOT a negative to once have been "fat", or rather, "non-lean", and then overfeed, as opposed to a person who's never been "non-lean"? "dieted individuals typically show a biology that is absolutely not geared towards anything except packing the body fat back on. Typically, the metabolic consequences of dieting include a lowered metabolism, decreased fat oxidation, decreased HSL activity, increased LPL activity impaired hormonal status (including lowered testosterone and raised cortisol), decreased thermogenesis from a reduction in both thyroid levels and nervous system output and a host of other metabolic defects. All of these serve to both slow fat loss during the diet and ensure rapid fat regain when food is reintroduced."

Its clear what you ment to say, you written it above many times,

When you have primed the body you in a very anabolic state to grow muscle and if you have primed correctly via carb cycling and your a bodybuilding introducing a cycle you will build huge amounts of muscle tissue because you have opened a growth window and created an environment for tissue to grow at a very fast rate, Dorian use to use this method straigth after a show, you will put some fat on due to the bulk but your not going to put all the fat on what you have lost, that is plain silly!


Cutting fat and building muscle is what us bodybuilders do, we dont put the fat back on we try to build more tissue which is controlled by diet and training, I think your blinded and getting confused by studies and not concentrating on bodybuilders and how we cut bodyfat and build muscle tissue, I wouldnt cut and paste other peoples work until you fully understand what you trying to say

[Drake Hotel]

Its clear what you ment to say, you written it above many times,

No. I said in my last post that I expressed myself sloppily, excuse me that I didn't get it right the first time but is there any chance you could stop bringing up what I accidentally said but didn't mean to say?

When you have primed the body you in a very anabolic state to grow muscle and if you have primed correctly via carb cycling and your a bodybuilding introducing a cycle you will build huge amounts of muscle tissue because you have opened a growth window and created an environment for tissue to grow at a very fast rate, Dorian use to use this method straigth after a show, you will put some fat on due to the bulk but your not going to put all the fat on what you have lost, that is plain silly!

Exactly, a cycle, and Dorian Yates' methods i.e. cycling. Naturally, drug-free, which is what I'm talking about, none of that would happen. Different thing with drugs though, as I said already in my first post in this thread.

I think your blinded and getting confused by studies and not concentrating on bodybuilders and how we cut bodyfat and build muscle tissue, I wouldnt cut and paste other peoples work until you fully understand what you trying to say

I'm concentrating on exactly what I said; the body not being primed for muscle gain after losing. "cut and paste other peoples work" Yeah since you seemingly refuse to read what I link I included that in my own post, but did you miss the citation marks?

[bjpennnn]

i am very excited to try this myself

[marcus300]

No. I said in my last post that I expressed myself sloppily, excuse me that I didn't get it right the first time but is there any chance you could stop bringing up what I accidentally said but didn't mean to say?
Exactly, a cycle, and Dorian Yates' methods i.e. cycling. Naturally, drug-free, which is what I'm talking about, none of that would happen. Different thing with drugs though, as I said already in my first post in this thread.
I'm concentrating on exactly what I said; the body not being primed for muscle gain after losing. "cut and paste other peoples work" Yeah since you seemingly refuse to read what I link I included that in my own post, but did you miss the citation marks?

Again i will say you knew axactly what you meant and you didnt write it sloppily because he would of corrected yourself after the first post but no you debated it in over 6 replies and you kept on saying it over and over, if you would of said it sloppily you wouldnt of kept saying over and over you would of re-written it.

Your on a AAS forum, a thread what asked about cutting and bulking with AAS, its not even related to a natural person so comments regarding a natrual person is again plain stupid.

You have been debating for many post about gaining fat after you have dieted down and now you have had a complete change of mind and you suppose to of meant what i was saying, now your trying to debate something else regarding priming and i am not even going to debate that one with you because your wrong again, we will go on and on with this topic and at the end you will have a change of heart again like you have done regarding fat gain.

If there is anything you dont understand PM me and i will explain. The thread as been answered so i feel your comments regarding heaven knows what are pointless.