Just finished reading WarMachines' articles. Please grade my understanding. Cycle q'

[turboskinny]

Hey all! First of all I am blown away by the knowledge and passion found on the the forum. This is my first post! though I have been lurking since late 2005.

WarMachine, Swifto, Mudman, Phate, Big, DSM and all others I want to seriously extend a huge thank you for the patience and wisdom you guys share.


My Stats

26 Years Old.
5”11 163 lbs ( stuck at this weight for 6 years, despite serious diet changes. I check everyday)
Working out for 2 years in College ( no gains, discouraged, I blame my vegi diet ) Started again last year. Lifting as a Main focus, limited cardio.
10% BF based on gym electro resistance machine.
Gym 4 times / week.
100% Pro complex ED, fruits, Multi V;s and a PH Creatine.
Also no more restrictions on food. Ill eat anything that bleeds, changed diet last year

Main Goal - reach 180 of sustained weight. ( get to 185, and maintain 180 in PCT if possible ).
that is a 17lbs gain. I would not resort to AAS if I and my friend who is mentoring me believed I can do it.
I do not compete, I enjoy this sport and love feeling great / accomplished after a hard 2 trip to the gym. I have always been on the very skinny side. ( you would guess me ~ 145 lbs soaking wet ). I have visited more than one doctor, and my blood work is always normal. Recently I asked for a full panel ( thank you forum for the list, i am waiting for the printed results as i am not satisifed with the all is fine response ).

I have almost doubled my weight capacity on the training exercises, with NO measurable difference in volume or size.

I would like to get through a cycle with the least impact as possible in terms of non desirable sides. .


From my 4 months of reading messages here, I have compiled this arrangement to be experimented with.


AS Cylce Weeks 1-12 ( Cycle based on MudMans Newb intro )

1-12: 300mg Test Blend 150*2/week ( sunday / wed ) ( my weapon of choice *** note on bottom ***)
1-12: 10mg Tamox ED into end of PCT ( Prevent Gyno, rather prevent than treat )
(removed the l-dex from here )


PCT Cycle Weeks 14-18 ( WAR machine Protocol )

12*-18: 10mg Tamox ED ( continued from cycle )
14-18: 100 / 100 / 50 / 50 mg Clomid ED
14-18: 20 / 20 / 10 / 10 mg Aromasin ED ( swifto dose recomendation )
14-18 3g Vit C ( cortisol control, rec by Swifto )


HGH Cycle weeks 2-18 ( concurrent )
2-18 2.5 IU’s HGH pharm grade.
Delay the HG onset and overlap to the PCT, to aid in recovery. _ HGH forum*

I have not acquired the three chems yet. I plan to visit our forum sponsor for those research materials.



****Questions****

Should I remove the Aromasin from the warmachine PCT protocol, and place A-dex into the cycle under the tamox. Or keep it Aromasin since A-dex and tamox are not to be mixed.

qutoe to support this question: “Adex while on and Aromasin during PCT (if needed). If you have used an AI and controlled estrogen during your cycle, you dont need an AI during PCT.” - Swifto and WarMachine.




**** Gear
My Gear :

Each ML contains
Testosterone cypionate 50MG
Testosterone enanthate 50MG
Testosterone phenypropionate 40MG
Testosterone propionate 30 MG
Testosterone decanoate 200MG
Testosterone isocaproat 30MG

I understand due to the blend of long and short esters, i will have to inject between EOD or E3D. To maintain a steady level. I have read here that the fluctuations in test level can cause greater side effects.
What ever the split will be, it will equal 300 mg / week.

Its with me, so its not going to waste.

[WARMachine]

Hey all! First of all I am blown away by the knowledge and passion found on the the forum. This is my first post! though I have been lurking since late 2005.

WarMachine, Swifto, Mudman, Phate, Big, DSM and all others I want to seriously extend a huge thank you for the patience and wisdom you guys share.

First off thanks bud for taking the time to read before joining up. BTW, welcome to AR!



My Stats

26 Years Old.
5”11 163 lbs ( stuck at this weight for 6 years, despite serious diet changes. I check everyday)
You know were gonna wanna see it?

Working out for 2 years in College ( no gains, discouraged, I blame my vegi diet ) Started again last year. Lifting as a Main focus, limited cardio.
10% BF based on gym electro resistance machine.
Gym 4 times / week.
100% Pro complex ED, fruits, Multi V;s and a PH Creatine.
Also no more restrictions on food. Ill eat anything that bleeds, changed diet last year

Main Goal - reach 180 of sustained weight. ( get to 185, and maintain 180 in PCT if possible ).
that is a 17lbs gain. I would not resort to AAS if I and my friend who is mentoring me believed I can do it.
I do not compete, I enjoy this sport and love feeling great / accomplished after a hard 2 trip to the gym. I have always been on the very skinny side. ( you would guess me ~ 145 lbs soaking wet ). I have visited more than one doctor, and my blood work is always normal. Recently I asked for a full panel ( thank you forum for the list, i am waiting for the printed results as i am not satisifed with the all is fine response ).

I have almost doubled my weight capacity on the training exercises, with NO measurable difference in volume or size.

I would like to get through a cycle with the least impact as possible in terms of non desirable sides. .


From my 4 months of reading messages here, I have compiled this arrangement to be experimented with.


AS Cylce Weeks 1-12 ( Cycle based on MudMans Newb intro )

1-12: 300mg Test Blend 150*2/week ( sunday / wed ) ( my weapon of choice *** note on bottom ***)
I personally do not care for blended Tests.

1-12: 10mg Tamox ED into end of PCT ( Prevent Gyno, rather prevent than treat )
I realize there is plenty of conflicting evidence, but imo, this is NOT the best course of action to prevent ERSEs on cycle.

(removed the l-dex from here )
You didnt mention Adex before?



PCT Cycle Weeks 14-18 ( WAR machine Protocol )

12*-18: 10mg Tamox ED ( continued from cycle )
Should be 20mgs ED.

14-18: 100 / 100 / 50 / 50 mg Clomid ED
14-18: 20 / 20 / 10 / 10 mg Aromasin ED ( swifto dose recomendation )
14-18 3g Vit C ( cortisol control, rec by Swifto )


HGH Cycle weeks 2-18 ( concurrent )
2-18 2.5 IU’s HGH pharm grade.
Delay the HG onset and overlap to the PCT, to aid in recovery. _ HGH forum*

HGH needs to be run for a minimum of 6 months to have any desired effect. Better continue reading bro.


I have not acquired the three chems yet. I plan to visit our forum sponsor for those research materials.



****Questions****

Should I remove the Aromasin from the warmachine PCT protocol, and place A-dex into the cycle under the tamox. Or keep it Aromasin since A-dex and tamox are not to be mixed.


Kinda confusing here. Let me lay it out like this.

Adex - For on cycle ERSE control/Prevention
Nolva - For GYNO, not ERSE, TREATMENT. NOT control. Also to be used in PCT as recovery compound. Though it can be replaced with other SERMS.


So, IF you use an AI on cycle to control/prevent ERSEs, you do NOT need an AI during your PCT. You just need 2 SERMS. I prefer Clomid and either Nolva or Tom.


qutoe to support this question: “Adex while on and Aromasin during PCT (if needed). If you have used an AI and controlled estrogen during your cycle, you dont need an AI during PCT.” - Swifto and WarMachine.




**** Gear
My Gear :

Each ML contains
Testosterone cypionate 50MG
Testosterone enanthate 50MG
Testosterone phenypropionate 40MG
Testosterone propionate 30 MG
Testosterone decanoate 200MG
Testosterone isocaproat 30MG

I understand due to the blend of long and short esters, i will have to inject between EOD or E3D. To maintain a steady level. I have read here that the fluctuations in test level can cause greater side effects.
What ever the split will be, it will equal 300 mg / week.


Minimum EOD due to the short esters IMO. If youre gonna use a mixed blend Test, might as well do it right. Though im sure others will disagree.


Its with me, so its not going to waste.

RED BOLDS.


Ill be checking this thread out tomorrow around 10 AM PST time, cause im tired as a muthafvcka. Ill see what others have added at that point, as well as help with any other questions you may have.



-WAR

[Roshambo]

My Gear :

Each ML contains
Testosterone cypionate 50MG
Testosterone enanthate 50MG
Testosterone phenypropionate 40MG
Testosterone propionate 30 MG
Testosterone decanoate 200MG
Testosterone isocaproat 30MG

I understand due to the blend of long and short esters, i will have to inject between EOD or E3D. To maintain a steady level. I have read here that the fluctuations in test level can cause greater side effects.
What ever the split will be, it will equal 300 mg / week.

What type of Gear is this, Sustanon? Not sure what this part is all about. Look man you obviously seem patient and able to understand that this is something to be serious about. you may not want to hear this but imho I think that you should try a new diet and workout routine for at least 6 more mo. If no gains after that then by all means juice all you want. in 6 mo with a great diet and proper workout routine I think that you can put on at least 10 lbs or more. here are a few links to help get you started.
Diet thread for bulking: Read Here Diet
Hardgainer Thread: Read Here For Hardgainer
Milos Sarcev "Secret of the Pro's" on Nutrition!

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Part Four

Part Five

Part Six

[lovbyts]

300 is a little low also for a cycle. MOST people do 500. 300 is almost a HRT run. I'm on 250 week myself per doctor and it only gets me to normal.
Why would you just want to replace your test after shutting it down. If you are going to do that add enough to make it worth while.

[WARMachine]

What type of Gear is this, Sustanon? Not sure what this part is all about. Look man you obviously seem patient and able to understand that this is something to be serious about. you may not want to hear this but imho I think that you should try a new diet and workout routine for at least 6 more mo. If no gains after that then by all means juice all you want. in 6 mo with a great diet and proper workout routine I think that you can put on at least 10 lbs or more. here are a few links to help get you started.
Diet thread for bulking: Read Here Diet
Hardgainer Thread: Read Here For Hardgainer
Milos Sarcev "Secret of the Pro's" on Nutrition!

Part One

Part Two

Part Three

Part Four

Part Five

Part Six

Good advice brutha!

Bump for some more of it!

[TractionIssues]

You definitely need to perfect your diet and your training you stated your answers above yourself. A diet will make a big difference in your gains, i REPEAT and BIG difference, you will never gain if you don't eat exactly right. Secondly, if your weight training increases but your size isnt, chances are you are doing more of an endurance training than a strangth/mass training, go to the training section and look those up, they consist of lifting heavier for much less reps.

[DS21]

300 is a little low also for a cycle. MOST people do 500. 300 is almost a HRT run. I'm on 250 week myself per doctor and it only gets me to normal.
Why would you just want to replace your test after shutting it down. If you are going to do that add enough to make it worth while.

FYI, the average male produce about 7mg of test a day or 50mg/wk, so 300mg is enough to make a difference.

To the OP, I really would like to see your diet and if you could give us an idea of the changes you have made to it over the past 6 years. Your diet is the only real way to gain and keep lean muscle on your body. So give us a detailed diet, so we can really try and help you.

[The Deuce]

300mgs EW would be enough for a first time Cycle. BUT IMO... not of an Blend of Test... HERE'S MY THOUGHT PROCESS ON THAT...

If he plans on injecting it twice per week... he will only receive

Testosterone cypionate 50MG
Testosterone enanthate 50MG
Testosterone phenypropionate 40MG
Testosterone propionate 30 MG
Testosterone decanoate 200MG
Testosterone isocaproat 30MG

Per week....

That's only 30mgs EW of Prop... Not enough... doesn't even hit baseline 50mgs EW of what the body naturally produces (I thought it was 77mgs EW naturally produced.. guess I was wrong)

Then it's another 40mgs EW of phenylpropionate which should activate and be present and working within the first week just like the Propinate.


Testosterone cypionate 50MG
Testosterone enanthate 50MG
(These two will take 2 weeks to get on board right??)

Testosterone decanoate 200MG
Testosterone isocaproat 30MG
(And these ones at least 3 weeks??? right??)


I dunno I am just not a fan of blends for this VERY reason... I believe NOMINAL Propinate in a week is at least 25mgs ED (to hit this mark with his blend would be 1ml ED) which would result in an astronomical 2100mgs EW !!!


This blend just doesn't make sense to me... I know it exists out there.. and that people use it... BUT WHY !?!?!? Why would anyone do this .. when they could just use CYPIONATE OR ENANTHATE OR EVEN PROPINATE ... and be guaranteed a certain NUMBER of MGS EW that will be active and working for you...



SO TO THE OP !!!

IT IS MY PERSONAL OPINION THAT ABANDON THIS TEST BLEND AND JUST GO AHEAD AND WORK WITH AN EASY ESTER FOR YOUR FIRST CYCLE !! I recommend Cypionate for this occasion because MOST Cyp is dosed at 200mgs/ml and would make easy conversion for you to run it at 300mgs EW... 1.5mls/EW ... which would work out to .75mls E3.5D.

Now... for the rest of it OP... don't run that NOLVA through your cycle... run the ADEX(L-DEX) IF YOU ARE WORRIED about ERSE. .25mgs EOD to start out... then again.. I doubt you would need it at 300mgs EW. but everyone is different.

PCT look ok... wouldn't need the Aromasin if you ran the Adex through ur cycle IMO though... NOLVA/CLOMID should be sufficient...

HGH... 6 months MINIMUM bro and you shouldn't even BE NEAR THE STUFF IMO yet... You are new .. so stick to the basics... a TEST ONLY CYCLE !!

But the issue herein lies in your DIET somewhere Man.. it has to... I find it rather impossible for someone's genetic potential be at what 163lbs?? At 5'11"... I know it may seem like you just can't seem to put weight on.. but trust us.. you can !!! You DO NOT NEED AAS to do this... a properly tweaked DIET will and should add the weight right to ya !!!

Now if you decide to go ahead and use AAS... know this... IF YOU CAN'T GAIN WITHOUT THEM.. YOU WONT GAIN WITH THEM... They are not a miracle cure for the lazy (NOT SAYING YOU ARE LAZY AT ALL BRO... NOT AT ALL SO DONT THINK THAT !!)


IMO Bro... give the DIET section of the FORUM a spin.. and give it a REAL TRY !! Post up a diet.. one of them AWESOME GURU's will tweak it for you.. AND You will be amazed what happens with your body if you follow the suggested DIET to a T !!!

This is just my opinion my bro... and WELCOME !!

[turboskinny]

War, Duece, lovbyts, Roshambo, TractionIssues, DS21

Thank you for the help. I deeply appreciate the time. I am now reconsidering my start date ( or even starting ) if i can achieve the changes i would like with more diet modifications ( i am doubtful - I hate to eat, and already eat to the point of being resentful of food). I am not eating 8 times a day. More like 4.

The following is hypothetical to help with my understanding if I decided to continue.

I have made corrective adjustments to my planned experiment. ( if i were to proceed )

*Firstly for on cycle ERSE control, plan will be to use an Adex like you mentioned in your notes.

*Secondly Post cycle path is now clearer: "You just need 2 SERMS. I prefer Clomid and either Nolva or tom ." - war

Perfect. This is a much simpler protocol to follow.

I have a question regarding the blend i have acquired.

Each ML contains
Testosterone cypionate 50MG
Testosterone enanthate 50MG
Testosterone phenypropionate 40MG
Testosterone propionate 30 MG
Testosterone decanoate 200MG
Testosterone isocaproat 30MG

In a 10cc vial. I did not want to mention the brand on the forum but its best described as UV T400 Supertest from south of the border.

Should I toss this due to the composition as recommenced by deuce?

Since I have 10CC of this blend, should i use 1 cc a week? for 10 weeks?

Is testosterone decanoate = to a test? i don't understand this. In the profile section it is not listed with the other esters. People mention stacking this with their test cycle. It is important for me to try to reduce my overall negative side effects by choosing a responsible and moderate path. Deca ( is this even the deca, as the infamous deca ? ) seems to be pretty harsh in terms of natural shutdown sides. Isnt all test the same? just different half lifes? Is this really a 400 mg / wk plan?

You gents mentioned that you are not a fan of a blend, I was thinking of now trying to find just enan, and attempt 400 mg / wk for 10-12 weeks.

Keep it, or toss it?

Thank you.

If thre was a way to donate to the forum, I would!
Sure beats throwing money after bad advice..

[DS21]

That's only 30mgs EW of Prop... Not enough... doesn't even hit baseline 50mgs EW of what the body naturally produces (I thought it was 77mgs EW naturally produced.. guess I was wrong)

Just so you don't think I am BSing you:

http://testosteronereplacementfaqs.c...e-dysfunction/

[DS21]

War, Duece, lovbyts, Roshambo, TractionIssues, DS21

Thank you for the help. I deeply appreciate the time. I am now reconsidering my start date ( or even starting ) if i can achieve the changes i would like with more diet modifications ( i am doubtful - I hate to eat, and already eat to the point of being resentful of food). I am not eating 8 times a day. More like 4.

The following is hypothetical to help with my understanding if I decided to continue.

I have made corrective adjustments to my planned experiment. ( if i were to proceed )

*Firstly for on cycle ERSE control, plan will be to use an Adex like you mentioned in your notes.

*Secondly Post cycle path is now clearer: "You just need 2 SERMS. I prefer Clomid and either Nolva or tom ." - war

Perfect. This is a much simpler protocol to follow.

I have a question regarding the blend i have acquired.

Each ML contains
Testosterone cypionate 50MG
Testosterone enanthate 50MG
Testosterone phenypropionate 40MG
Testosterone propionate 30 MG
Testosterone decanoate 200MG
Testosterone isocaproat 30MG

In a 10cc vial. I did not want to mention the brand on the forum but its best described as UV T400 Supertest from south of the border.

Should I toss this due to the composition as recommenced by deuce?

Since I have 10CC of this blend, should i use 1 cc a week? for 10 weeks?

Is testosterone decanoate = to a test? i don't understand this. In the profile section it is not listed with the other esters. People mention stacking this with their test cycle. It is important for me to try to reduce my overall negative side effects by choosing a responsible and moderate path. Deca ( is this even the deca, as the infamous deca ? ) seems to be pretty harsh in terms of natural shutdown sides. Isnt all test the same? just different half lifes? Is this really a 400 mg / wk plan?

You gents mentioned that you are not a fan of a blend, I was thinking of now trying to find just enan, and attempt 400 mg / wk for 10-12 weeks.

Keep it, or toss it?

Thank you.

If thre was a way to donate to the forum, I would!
Sure beats throwing money after bad advice..

You are correct, test is test. Decanoate is a long ester attached to the test, Deca has the same ester attached to it (nandrolone decanoate). I would never use a blend and I would also never throw out a bottle of test. To answer your question, once you get your diet correct, I would inject something along the lines of just under 1/2 cc eod. Others may have a better recomendation.

[turboskinny]

Thanks for the direction ds21,
Ill store this vial, maybe there will be a time when it will be needed. I have to find a source for just a enan emulsion.

If your going to be shutting down your natural production levels, might as well ensure your at a high enough level to make it worth it. I understand that better now. I was in the less is more camp, but as it turns out this approach does not apply in regards to sup test.


Regards.