Gyno Started

[Ryan121]

Early last week I started to feel that right nipple soreness. My cycle is Test E and Deca. I started my Nolva ed at 20mgs. I still have the lump under the nipple, its not larger or smaller but a little sore. What is the alotted time that I should continue to use Nolva? When should the lump decrease and when should I become concern?

[Slide]

how long have you been runnning the novla?

[Necrosaro]

Use Nolva throught the entire cycle till it doesn't bother you. I personally would use it till the end just in case. Never hurts to make sure you keep that down so it doesn't rear its ugly head later on.

[Ryan121]

I have been using Nolva for 9 days now. When should the lump go away? Should I use Caber now along with the Nolva? should I stop using A-dex?

[c-Z]

[Necrosaro]

Give it some time man and if it doesn't go away then you might have to go to a bit more drastic measures to insure you get rid as much as you can. Hold on for a good week and let us know, if it is still there we will be here to help you out. Give the guy a break chevrolet02xz28 he uis just asking for some help since he is concerned

[*RAGE*]

I have been using Nolva for 9 days now. When should the lump go away? Should I use Caber now along with the Nolva? should I stop using A-dex?

first give us some back ground on stats, how long have you been running your cycle, what mg are you running it at, past cycles, have you ever had it before, lets start at this before you f yourself up

[c-Z]

We have already established i'm a prick in a PM. so.. I'm just keeping my mouth shut... You guys can help him with the bi*ch tit. Sucks man.... I would have a bit of sympathy if I didn't receive hideous PM's.. but you just made my day.

[Necrosaro]

It is just for the fact that if you were getting the same thing as he is getting you would be concerned about it as well and look towards the other members for help right. Do unto others as they do to you. Lets get back to the subject Your in good hands Ryan, be honest and we will help you out..prone is a great guy and he will help you out and looks like he knows more then me so I will stand back for a bit and learn as well

[c-Z]

yeah i guess sooo.. just because he thinks im a prick doesn't mean i should prove him right.... as soon as he answers the questions we can better help him..... I wouldnt run adex with nolva though.

[*RAGE*]

edited....

[Ryan121]

first give us some back ground on
stats
5'9 189 bf%13
second cycle...Test E and W were first...I did get a little itchy on the first but went away,
how long have you been running your cycle: I started on May 7th
what mg are you running it at - running Test E @ 500mg per week and Deca at 400mg was running .25mg eod of l-dex but it was research stuff...

[history in the makin]

do you have any pic's

[c-Z]

Are you sure you have gyno? I got a weird feeling when i rubbed my wrist on my chest one day and started on a-dex. everything went away. You sure it's a lump as well as soreness..... Which were u running adex or ldex?

[*RAGE*]

My advice would be to continue nolva at 20mg ed for another week if it does not stop, I would look at cutting out the deca, but not sure if that is right, I will give WAR a heads up on this thread he knows a lot more about this then I do and he should be on a little later and he will give you some more advice I am sure...so keep checking the thread..

[Ryan121]

This is from WAR earlier
But if I do option 2) Why do I need Caber ? PLease advise

1) Stop the Deca. Run the Nolva thus hopefully reducing it, at the very least ensure that the condition doesnt worsen.
2) Continue the Deca. Run the Caber along side the Nolva and hope Prolactin issues do not arise, and stop the worsening of the gyno with the Nolva use.
3) Continue the Deca. Run Letro to control the Prolactin/Estrogen issues. The main problem with this is, whatever circulating estrogen you have, may not be fully controlled

[*RAGE*]

I would try option three first then go to option one IMO

[Ryan121]

How much/ how long Letro should I run in option three?

[WARMachine]

.25mgs ED.

That should suffice.

[Ryan121]

War -
What effects do Nolva and Letro have on my cycle of Test E and Deca.. I am not week 4

[WARMachine]

Potential loss of gains...

Both have their own side effects that are not directly linked to cycle use, but serious sides generally only occur during long time usage.

[Juice Authority]

Early last week I started to feel that right nipple soreness. My cycle is Test E and Deca. I started my Nolva ed at 20mgs. I still have the lump under the nipple, its not larger or smaller but a little sore. What is the alotted time that I should continue to use Nolva? When should the lump decrease and when should I become concern?

Here's the thing. With Test E and Deca the gyno could be estrogen related or progesterone related. You just don't know. Most of the time it is estrogen related so that's where I start addressing the problem. Presuming up until that point I've been running no AI or SERM I'll attack it from both angles. I'll take a hefty dose (1gm) of A-dex and 40mgs of Nolva (day 1). That will reduce estrogen levels in the body but not completely kill it off (ala Letro). The Nolva will block what estrogen remains from binding to the ER. I'll reduce the A-dex dose to .5mg e/3 days and 20mgs of Nolva/ed until the symptoms subside (usually takes about a week for me because I catch it early on before it forms). After the symptoms subside I'll continue on a low dose of Nolva (10mg/ed) and drop the A-dex.

[WARMachine]

here's the thing. With test e and deca the gyno could be estrogen related or progesterone related. You just don't know. agreed. But this is why i say Caber or Letro should be used. Cause if it is in fact progesterone related, Nolva will further worsen the situation.

most of the time it is estrogen related so that's where i start addressing the problem. Presuming up until that point i've been running no ai or serm i'll attack it from both angles. I'll take a hefty dose (1gm) of a-dex and 40mgs of nolva (day 1). That will reduce estrogen levels in the body but not completely kill it off (ala letro). The nolva will block what estrogen remains from binding to the er. I'll reduce the a-dex dose to .5mg e/3 days and 20mgs of nolva/ed until the symptoms subside (usually takes about a week for me because i catch it early on before it forms). After the symptoms subside i'll continue on a low dose of nolva (10mg/ed) and drop the a-dex.
i agree for the most part, except running the adex. Its pointless imo. Nolvadex reducess the effectiveness type II AIs. Not to mention, if you are running the nolvadex, its going block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast. Of course doing this, it would be advisable to run an ai in your pct to control the high levels of estrogen that remain circulating from your cycle. However, if you did want to lower estrogen during the cycle, aromasin would be my choice, since its effectiveness is not reduced by tamox.

bolds

EDIT: I would like to add that i forgot that we were talking about a cycle with a 19-Nor. I did not take that into account in my previous statements.

[Juice Authority]

bolds

EDIT: I would like to add that i forgot that we were talking about a cycle with a 19-Nor. I did not take that into account in my previous statements.

"i agree for the most part, except running the adex. Its pointless imo. Nolvadex reducess the effectiveness type II AIs. Not to mention, if you are running the nolvadex, its going block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast. Of course doing this, it would be advisable to run an ai in your pct to control the high levels of estrogen that remain circulating from your cycle. However, if you did want to lower estrogen during the cycle, aromasin would be my choice, since its effectiveness is not reduced by tamox."

And this is where opinions seem to differ. I have heard it postulated that Nolva reduces the effectiveness of AIs and also the other way around so it is the chicken or the egg? And if so, how significant is it really? Liver protectants interfere with androgens in the body but their inhibitory effect is infinitesimal at best. Nolva is a pretty weak anti-e. I think most will agree on that. The point of running Nolva is to block estrogen from binding to the receptor site but at same time you want to reduce estrogen levels in the body and let's face it, Nolva doesn't really get the job done in that respect. If gyno is starting to form that also means circulating estrogen levels are probably too high.

I won't address aromasin because I can't speak to it from personal experience. I can read profiles and spout out info but unless I have direct personal experience (something that should matter) with a compound I'll defer to others.

The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Killing off all the estrogen in your body is not the ideal solution either. Estrogen plays a big role in libido. If your estrogen is too low then you will have no libido. When people take letro it kills there libido because it reduces estrogen levels by 99% and renders your dick useless.

However, and as you pointed out, Nolva can and will exacerbate the situation if it's progesterone related BUT if it's caught early enough you can quickly determine if it's estrogen related or progesterone related. For starters, the gyno will worsen instead of subsiding and you can quickly change course with other remedies.

Bear in mind, not everyone responds well to prolactin reducing drugs like Prami or caber. Prami for example has some really bizarre sides. I took .5mg of Prami in the am and nearly feel asleep at work. I took it in the pm and was wide awake all night. Go figure. It's like the drug knows what time of day it is.

[hankdiesel]

I don't play around with gyno. I always have letro ready to go.

[Ryan121]

I really still have not gotten a comfortable answer WAR and Juice please help me here....I am trying to do this thing right man. see below I have a lot on hand.

Test E @ 500mg and Deca @ 400mg
please help me dude. this is my second cycle. first was test e and winn. I did get itchy nipples on that cycle too though used aromisin to take care of it.

So i have Nolva, Caber, A-Dex and Aromasin on hand. Just let me know

1) what to take
2) how much
4) how long

thanks for sharing your knowledge.
go news I have a lot of hand.[/

[Juice Authority]

I really still have not gotten a comfortable answer WAR and Juice please help me here....I am trying to do this thing right man. see below I have a lot on hand.

Test E @ 500mg and Deca @ 400mg
please help me dude. this is my second cycle. first was test e and winn. I did get itchy nipples on that cycle too though used aromisin to take care of it.

So i have Nolva, Caber, A-Dex and Aromasin on hand. Just let me know

1) what to take
2) how much
4) how long

thanks for sharing your knowledge.
go news I have a lot of hand.[/

Honestly, you can take either method. I choose to not to kill off all my estrogen with a potent compound like Letro to combat gyno related symptoms but if you're looking for a bulletproof solution go with War's method. I know my body and how to balance AIs and SERMs to combat the problem but if this worrisome for you or the gyno has developed and formed into a hard lump (I catch it when just starts to form) then WAR's method would be more appropriate.

[DEE151]

Early last week I started to feel that right nipple soreness. My cycle is Test E and Deca. I started my Nolva ed at 20mgs. I still have the lump under the nipple, its not larger or smaller but a little sore. What is the alotted time that I should continue to use Nolva? When should the lump decrease and when should I become concern?

post a picture up

[TITANIUM]

Run the 20 mgs of Tamo ed.You can bump it up a little more, but not for too long.Started with myself, and the Tamo killed it.If that doesn't work,Letro or A-dex.Estrogen Killers!!!!!

[Ryan121]

A picture will not do any justice...looking at the right breast nothing looks abnormal. To the touch their is a small ump maybe even two.

I have been running 20mgs Nolva for 8 days into treatment....starting today I am running the Nolva at 40mg for two days then at 20mgs for another 3 days...

[WARMachine]

"i agree for the most part, except running the adex. Its pointless imo. Nolvadex reducess the effectiveness type II AIs. Not to mention, if you are running the nolvadex, its going block the estrogen from binding to the receptors in the breast. Of course doing this, it would be advisable to run an ai in your pct to control the high levels of estrogen that remain circulating from your cycle. However, if you did want to lower estrogen during the cycle, aromasin would be my choice, since its effectiveness is not reduced by tamox."

And this is where opinions seem to differ. I have heard it postulated that Nolva reduces the effectiveness of AIs and also the other way around so it is the chicken or the egg? 100% Positive its Nolva. I can provide articles to support that as well. And if so, how significant is it really? Roughly 40%.

Liver protectants interfere with androgens in the body but their inhibitory effect is infinitesimal at best. Nolva is a pretty weak anti-e. I think most will agree on that. You bet. If people think Nolva should be used as an AI, they dont know wtf they are doing. As it does not inhibit circulating estrogen. It does exactly as you explain below.

The point of running Nolva is to block estrogen from binding to the receptor site but at same time you want to reduce estrogen levels in the body and let's face it, Nolva doesn't really get the job done in that respect. If gyno is starting to form that also means circulating estrogen levels are probably too high. Yep.

I won't address aromasin because I can't speak to it from personal experience. I can read profiles and spout out info but unless I have direct personal experience (something that should matter) with a compound I'll defer to others. You should look into its use. Its by far my favorite AI.

The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Doesnt make sense to me here. Letro will already control progesterone issues, making Caber overkill.

Killing off all the estrogen in your body is not the ideal solution either. I agree, if anyone has read my sticky, youll realize my distaste for the use of Letro. Estrogen plays a big role in libido. If your estrogen is too low then you will have no libido. When people take letro it kills there libido because it reduces estrogen levels by 99% and renders your dick useless. One of MANY reasons why i dislike it.

However, and as you pointed out, Nolva can and will exacerbate the situation if it's progesterone related BUT if it's caught early enough you can quickly determine if it's estrogen related or progesterone related. For starters, the gyno will worsen instead of subsiding and you can quickly change course with other remedies. True.

Bear in mind, not everyone responds well to prolactin reducing drugs like Prami or caber. Prami for example has some really bizarre sides. I took .5mg of Prami in the am and nearly feel asleep at work. I took it in the pm and was wide awake all night. Go figure. It's like the drug knows what time of day it is. Yeah i hear ya there. Eveyone is different.

Were pretty much in agreement id say.

WTF is going on here?

[Ryan121]

War-

Please just tell me what to take here...I have tamox, aromasin, a-dex, and caber...I really need ya here
what to take
how much
how long

[Juice Authority]

Were pretty much in agreement id say.

WTF is going on here?

'The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Doesnt make sense to me here. Letro will already control progesterone issues, making Caber overkill. '

Ok, let's address this because there seems to be some conflicting information that may prove useful in discussing openly. While estrogen and progesterone are indirectly related an AI (letro) won't reduce already high prolactin levels. That's where Prami/caber/bromo comes into play unless I'm missing something here.

I do believe you can indirectly control progesterone levels with an AI BEFORE prolactin levels build up. Lower estrogen typically = lower prolactin levels. However, if the user has not been running an AI and both his estrogen and progesteron levels are high then Letro won't help. Letro kills off estrogen; it doesn't reduce prolactin levels. Now if I've got this wrong feel free to correct me but that is my understanding.

[WARMachine]

'The obvious surefire solution would be a letro/caber or letro/prami combo but there is another side to that coin too. Doesnt make sense to me here. Letro will already control progesterone issues, making Caber overkill. '

Ok, let's address this because there seems to be some conflicting information that may prove useful in discussing openly. While estrogen and progesterone are indirectly related an AI (letro) won't reduce already high prolactin levels. I didnt say they did. Im afraid i didnt fully understand what you wrote. That's where Prami/caber/bromo comes into play unless I'm missing something here.

I do believe you can indirectly control progesterone levels with an AI BEFORE prolactin levels build up. Lower estrogen typically = lower prolactin levels. However, if the user has not been running an AI and both his estrogen and progesteron levels are high then Letro won't help. Letro kills off estrogen; it doesn't reduce prolactin levels. Now if I've got this wrong feel free to correct me but that is my understanding.

The use of Letro helps the PgR by reducing concentrations of the PgR and estrogen receptors and lowering estrogen levels. Tren and deca do not aromatize into prog but act on the prog receptor. Deca binds at the rate of 20% and tren is 60% so using letro will give the deca/tren less prog receptors to bind too. Thats what i ment when i said Letro will help control progesterone issues.

Now i will say, the best way to prevent or decrease prolactin/progestrone induced gyno is by taking an anti-prolatin such as Caber or Bromo.

But like i mentioned, Letrozole does have anti-progestinic (not prolactin) properties.

Again though, this is mostly from my research into this topic. For all i know, i may be inaccruate. Unfortunately, im not the most knowledgeable member concerning this issue, however, i feel i have a basic understanding.

Ill PM someone i know will have some better insight for us. Hopefully he'll get back to me soon.

[Swifto]

The use of Letro helps the PgR by reducing concentrations of the PgR and estrogen receptors and lowering estrogen levels. Tren and deca do not aromatize into prog but act on the prog receptor. Deca binds at the rate of 20% and tren is 60% so using letro will give the deca/tren less prog receptors to bind too. Thats what i ment when i said Letro will help control progesterone issues.

Now i will say, the best way to prevent or decrease prolactin/progestrone induced gyno is by taking an anti-prolatin such as Caber or Bromo.

But like i mentioned, Letrozole does have anti-progestinic (not prolactin) properties.

Again though, this is mostly from my research into this topic. For all i know, i may be inaccruate. Unfortunately, im not the most knowledgeable member concerning this issue, however, i feel i have a basic understanding.

Ill PM someone i know will have some better insight for us. Hopefully he'll get back to me soon.

Hello hello...What have we here...



Lower E and PgR should also lower.

Tamox upregulates the PgR.

Reduce PgR by using RU-486/Mifepristone.

There are studies that show a decrease in the PgR from Letro. But it has no direct affinity for the PGR. But I'm not completely happy with it IMHO. It may be from a reduction in estrogen and the study is on cancer patients with breast tissue growth, not normal, healthy individuals. Thats a big difference IMHO. The patients arnt on steroids, they arnt exogenously administering steroids, that also changes things. There also not using progestins. I'm not happy with it.

Tamox lowers the effectiveness of type II AI's. Its roghly 40%.

There arnt any ACTUAL studies confirming it. But I've spoken to a doctor that states his patients experience increased levels of PRL from Testosterone. So taking a dopamine agonist is a good idea IMHO. Although I'm still not 100%...

PRL will also increase with HGH and IGF-1 use.

Vit-B6 is a good way of reducing PRL. But too much can damage your CNS and it will reduce androgen gene transcription. So there's a flip side.

Few points, but most have been said.

I think the prblem is estrogen. Not PgR or PRL. Estorgen is the hormone that causes ductal and glandular growth of the breast. Some argue PgR makes it worse, it may, but in primates studies show it doesnt.

[WARMachine]

^

Thanks for getting back to me my friend.

Appreciate the insight. Glad i didnt put my foot in my mouth.

[Juice Authority]

Hello hello...What have we here...



Lower E and PgR should also lower.

Tamox upregulates the PgR.

Reduce PgR by using RU-486/Mifepristone.

There are studies that show a decrease in the PgR from Letro. But it has no direct affinity for the PGR. But I'm not completely happy with it IMHO. It may be from a reduction in estrogen and the study is on cancer patients with breast tissue growth, not normal, healthy individuals. Thats a big difference IMHO. The patients arnt on steroids, they arnt exogenously administering steroids, that also changes things. There also not using progestins. I'm not happy with it.

Tamox lowers the effectiveness of type II AI's. Its roghly 40%.

There arnt any ACTUAL studies confirming it. But I've spoken to a doctor that states his patients experience increased levels of PRL from Testosterone. So taking a dopamine agonist is a good idea IMHO. Although I'm still not 100%...

PRL will also increase with HGH and IGF-1 use.

Vit-B6 is a good way of reducing PRL. But too much can damage your CNS and it will reduce androgen gene transcription. So there's a flip side.

Few points, but most have been said.

I think the prblem is estrogen. Not PgR or PRL. Estorgen is the hormone that causes ductal and glandular growth of the breast. Some argue PgR makes it worse, it may, but in primates studies show it doesnt.

Good stuff. I agree on estrogen being the culprit here.

[WARMachine]

Good discussion fellas. Im bookmarking this so i can link it up.

A lot of good info here.