WarMachine, Swifto, et al

[Juice Authority]

Hey guys - this article is being discussed on another board and many are wondering where the facts came from that support these assumptions.

Posted by WarMachine at AR: Deca Question, Big, Mammon, T-Mos

While injecting test increases protein synthesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.

Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.

Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen synthesis while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.

Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.

You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.

Deca , Equipoise , Anavar , and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.

While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.

To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle. Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.

Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood

Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.

Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.

Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.

These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:

Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days

Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.

GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.

Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.

Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS, the decision is up to you."

[Juice Authority]

^^^^

[gymnerd]

I wonder myself. I cannot speak for anyone else but my joints feel 100% better when taking just test I have a hard time believing this myself.

[ninesecz]

That is a very interesting article and makes you do some thinking...

[Juice Authority]

That is a very interesting article and makes you do some thinking...

But where are the facts that back it up? I don't mean that disrespectfully but there are some people that apparently have tried to verify the info in this article, for years, and have all come up with absolutely nothing to substantiate it.

[Big]

War hasn't been here in a few weeks, I left him a message to check this thread.

[Juice Authority]

This article seems to be losing more and more credibility.

[peachfuzz]

most studies i find seem to conclude the same thing. testosterone doesnt seem to effect collagen synthesis one way or another.

There is evidence that anabolic steroids , which are derived from testosterone and have markedly less androgenic activity, promote tissue growth and enhance tissue repair; however, the mechanisms involved in their anabolic activities remain unclear. In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625–5 mug per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability (p = 0.764) but enhanced collagen synthesis (p < 0.01) in a dose-dependent manner (r = 0.907). Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1(I) and alpha1(III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels (p < 0.001). There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone. The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta 1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids .

[peachfuzz]

one on bone collagen
http://www.springerlink.com/content/u5m125j843l79558/

[peachfuzz]

no mention as to what type of collagen is given either. curious what musclescience or phate will say

[Juice Authority]

most studies i find seem to conclude the same thing. testosterone doesnt seem to effect collagen synthesis one way or another.

There is evidence that anabolic steroids , which are derived from testosterone and have markedly less androgenic activity, promote tissue growth and enhance tissue repair; however, the mechanisms involved in their anabolic activities remain unclear. In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625–5 mug per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability (p = 0.764) but enhanced collagen synthesis (p < 0.01) in a dose-dependent manner (r = 0.907). Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1(I) and alpha1(III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels (p < 0.001). There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone. The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta 1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids.

Thanks Bro. This is very useful.

[MuscleScience]

I have read that certain compounds such as winny effect how collagen is laid down. Meaning the quantity may be the same or more but the quality of the collagen as far as how coherently its laid down is decrease or increased to do certain compounds. I am far from a steroid expert though. They didnt teach me much steroid physiology in graduate school as you can imagine...LOL

[Juice Authority]

I have read that certain compounds such as winny effect how collagen is laid down. Meaning the quantity may be the same or more but the quality of the collagen as far as how coherently its laid down is decrease or increased to do certain compounds. I am far from a steroid expert though. They didnt teach me much steroid physiology in graduate school as you can imagine...LOL

I think we've pretty much reached consensus on the other board that this article is someone's opinionated gibberish with nothing substantive to back up any of it.

[MuscleScience]

I think we've pretty much reached consensus on the other board that this article is someone's opinionated gibberish with nothing substantive to back up any of it.

More than likely, I generally go straight to the primary literature when I want to find something out anyway. Most of the stuff is a long and boring read but I get what I need from it....

[Immortal Soldier]

I stopped taking the article seriously when he kept saying "bros"

[Swifto]

Who called me out...!!?

Stanozolol stimulates collagen synthesis by increasing TGF-beta1.


Stimulation of collagen synthesis by the anabolic steroid stanozolol.

Falanga V, Greenberg AS, Zhou L, Ochoa SM, Roberts AB, Falabella A, Yamaguchi Y.

University of Miami School of Medicine, Department of Dermatology, Miami Veterans Affairs Medical Center, Florida, USA.

There is evidence that anabolic steroids, which are derived from testosterone and have markedly less androgenic activity, promote tissue growth and enhance tissue repair; however, the mechanisms involved in their anabolic activities remain unclear. In this report, we measured the effect of the anabolic steroid stanozolol on cell replication and collagen synthesis in cultures of adult human dermal fibroblasts. Stanozolol (0.625-5 microg per ml) had no effect on fibroblast replication and cell viability (p = 0.764) but enhanced collagen synthesis (p < 0.01) in a dose-dependent manner (r = 0.907). Stanozolol also increased (by 2-fold) the mRNA levels of alpha1 (I) and alpha1 (III) procollagen and, to a similar extent, upregulated transforming growth factor-beta1 (TGF-beta1) mRNA and peptide levels (p < 0.001). There was no stimulation of collagen synthesis by testosterone. The stimulatory effects of stanozolol on collagen synthesis were blocked by a TGF-beta1 anti-sense oligonucleotide, by antibodies to TGF-beta, and in dermal fibroblast cultures derived from TGF-beta1 knockout mice. We conclude that collagen synthesis is increased by the anabolic steroid stanozolol and that, for the most part, this effect is due to TGF-beta1. These findings point to a novel mechanism of action of anabolic steroids.


Most steroids decrease TGF-beta1 through the AR. So I cannot see how WAR has come to this conclusion of increasing collagen synthesis using other androgens.

The exception being Tren , which could also increase collagen synthesis by increasing IGF-1 and FGF. Infact, an increase in IGF-1 is shared by most AAS, so this maybe how WAR has come to this conslusion...

This is also not his own article, but a copy/paste from somewhere else.

It seems there are conflicting studies when it comes to androgens and collagen synthesis.

[JiGGaMaN]

I stopped taking the article seriously when he kept saying "bros"

same here, although i found it pretty funny.

[Swifto]

This may support AAS and collagen repair (metabolism) after injury:



1: Int J Sports Med. 2000 Aug;21(6):406-11.Related Articles, Links


The effect of supraphysiological doses of anabolic androgenic steroids on collagen metabolism.

Pärssinen M, Karila T, Kovanen V, Seppälä T.

National Public Health Institute, Laboratory of Substance Abuse, Helsinki, Finland. [email protected]

We examined the effect of supraphysiological doses of anabolic androgenic steroids (AAS) on collagen metabolism and whether the changes reflect the alterations in muscle, bone, and tendon collagen metabolism, possibly in a tissue-specific manner. Serum carboxyterminal propeptide of type I procollagen (PICP), carboxyterminal telopeptide of type I collagen (ICTP), aminoterminal propeptide of type III procollagen (PIIINP), urine hydroxylysylpyridinoline (HP), and lysylpyridinoline (LP) as well as urine creatinine were determined from 17 men abusing AAS. Measurements were made twice during the intake of AAS and twice during the subsequent withdrawal period. When the volunteers were on steroids, their serum PIIINP concentrations and urine HP/LP ratio were significantly higher and their serum ICTP concentrations were significantly lower than during the withdrawal period (p < 0.05). Serum PIIINP correlated with total cumulative doses of injectable intramuscular steroids, and serum ICTP correlated with the duration of the steroid intake period (p<0.05). The results suggest that high doses of AAS decrease the degradation and seem to increase the synthesis of type I collagen. Furthermore, high doses of AAS are suggested to enhance soft tissue collagen metabolism on the basis of increased type III collagen synthesis and elevated HP/LP ratio during the steroid administration period. Although the tissue-specific turnover of collagen of soft connective tissues remains unknown, the turnover of bone collagen seems not to change following the use of high doses of AAS, at least within the time interval of the present study.



Seriously, I dont think anyone has a difinitive answer here. There are conflicting studies on it. But I dont think administering AAS solely used as a compound to repair, is the way forward.

[InsaneInTheMembrane]

^^^agreed

here's more

Inhofe PD, Grana WA, Egle D, Min KW, Tomasek J.
Department of Orthopaedic Surgery, University of Oklahoma College of Medicine, Oklahoma City, USA.

Forty-eight male rats were randomly separated into four groups: a control group, a group treated with anabolic steroids , a group treated with daily exercise, and a group treated with both steroids and exercise. At 6 weeks, biomechanical, ultrastructural, and biochemical testing was performed on the Achilles tendons of half of the rats in each group. The remaining rats continued in the experimental protocol, but steroid administration was discontinued. Similar testing was then performed on the remaining rats at 12 weeks. Testing showed anabolic steroids produced a stiffer tendon that absorbs less energy and fails with less elongation; tendon strength was unaffected. Effects were entirely reversible on discontinuation of the steroids. Light microscopic analysis revealed no changes in the appearance of the fibrils. No change in fibril diameter or shape was noted on electron microscopic analysis. Biochemical testing revealed no change in qualitative immunofluorescence staining with Type III collagen or fibronectin. Abuse of anabolic steroids is a widespread problem among competitive athletes; consequently, complications after their use are seen with increasing frequency. Knowledge of the effects of these drugs on tendon and the musculotendinous unit may prove helpful in counseling athletes who use anabolic steroids.

HOWEVER:

Miles JW, Grana WA, Egle D, Min KW, Chitwood J.
University of Oklahoma Health Sciences Center, Oklahoma City.

Twenty-four male rats were divided into four groups, with anabolic steroids and exercise as variables. Biomechanical tests and histological evaluations were performed. The results of the biomechanical tests suggested that anabolic steroids produce a stiffer tendon, which fails with less elongation. The energy at the time when the tendon failed, the toe-limit elongation, and the elongation at the time of the first failure were all affected significantly. Changes in the force at failure were not statistically significant. No alterations of structure were noted when the specimens were viewed with light microscopy. Alterations of the sizes of the collagen fibrils were noted on electron microscopy.

[Matt]

Oh good lord, can anyone translate all this into English...

Btw i agree with the guy who posted the most long words...

[slugtastic]

sorry for jacking the post... but would masteron have the same side effects as winny??? since its a DHT as well???? and if u use deca with the winny will the tendon side effect not happen????

[sigman roid]

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[Juice Authority]

^^^^

[marcus300]

Its remarkable how many conflicting studies Ive read regarding AAS over the years, first alot of studies are not done on bodybuilders but by the average guy using AAS,others are done on animals etc. I think we should all digest these studies but go with how bodybuilders respond and more importantly how you respond to certain AAS, this is why these boards are so important for soaking knowledge up and using it to your own advantage.

Personally with regards to winny, ive had problems when ive ran this compound for to many weeks, i have never had any injuries relating to using winny but ive had major dry joints which for me is an indication to stop using the compound at that point in the stack, from my own personal experience ive found the right dose and the correct numbers of weeks which gives me the benefit of winny but not the sides related to it.