Dbol, Test

[Juturna]

Hey guys - been a little while since I've posted here, but I'd like some new opinions to whether or not I should continue working out naturally or if some think I might be ready for a cycle. I've included the bare necessities, but I can post my diet/workout routine if someone asks me to do so.

Age; 21
Height; 5'8''
Weight; 177 lbs -Starting weight; 145
Time training; About 2 years, 9 months serious.

Goals; I'd like to focus on gaining strength and overall size. I'm not concerned about staying cut too much.


First picture - March
Second picture - Two days ago



I plan to run the common cycle of Test En + DBol as follows;

WK 1-4; Dbol 40mg
WK 1-12; Test E 250mg-MON/250mg-FRI

I will be taking Milk Thistle daily along with Nolvadex 20mg ED as my PCT, I'm open to PCT suggestions however.



I realize most will still think a cycle at my age is stupid or unnecessary, and I still encourage you to say so if that's how you feel, but I will say that I have been wanting to do a cycle for a while but at your advice have held off and worked extremely hard naturally.

[Papa Smurf]

You have made some very nice gains in a short time! Why would you want to screw with that by shuting down that great little test factory working its ass off in your body right now!

[Juturna]

Forgot, here are the legs;

[Juturna]

You have made some very nice gains in a short time! Why would you want to screw with that by shuting down that great little test factory working its ass off in your body right now!

Besides the overall mass that I know I could gain more of through a cycle; a lot comes down to smaller muscles I'm having trouble developing (I suppose due to genetics).

For instance I'm very unhappy with my lats, calves and chest. I feel a cycle as stated, besides the overall mass, will help my body to further develop what I'm lacking.

[Papa Smurf]

Im sorry I had to post again. Looking at your pics, son you should be the poster child agaisnt steriod use! Look what you did with hard work and eating right! Steriods cant do any better that what you have aready done it a very short time.

Keep eating and worrking hard and in a couple more years you will be a freaking monster! Then think about gear. Make sure you take pics, because we will be like Holy S**t, remember what that guy looked like when he started!

[Juturna]

PSmurf, I do sincerely appreciate the advice and compliments, I know where your coming from and part of me agrees. Again though, even with added WO routines for the specific muscles, I cannot seem to increase the size of the individual parts I'm looking to increase.

[sigman roid]

I agree with papa you have achieved alot in a short space of time and should just continue the same way for a couple of years dont jump in to steroids when you have so much of your own natural test in your body.

[Matt]

Yeah what the blue guy says makes sense lol.


Why risk damaging your HPTA and fusing your growth plates at your age unless your thinking of becoming the next Mr O...

You have done so so well at this point. A change of diet and training routine is what you need.

[Matt]

Post your diet and training program lol, if everything there is good then i will help you with a steroid cycle...

[Papa Smurf]

Son, I know you think your not growing, but all you have ta do is eat! Now, you may not keep those killer abs(god I hate you so much! ) but try and change up the diet some. You may smooth out, but that will happen on gear as well.

my advice:

Go on a MONSTER bulking diet: Post up in diet section. Those guys will help.
Take pics before and the 6 months after youve been on diet. Summer is almost over, so this will be a winter bulker.

EAT and Train for six months. If you dont improve those problem areas in that time, then I will give you all the cycle, compound, pct advice that my 47 years has pick up.

What ya say?

[Juturna]

Why risk damaging your HPTA and fusing your growth plates at your age unless your thinking of becoming the next Mr O...

You have done so so well at this point. A change of diet and training routine is what you need.

Shooting for Mr. Olympia wouldn't be bad


MEAL #1 (0800)

12 Egg Whites
1cup Brown Rice
2tbs Peanut Butter
8oz Skim Milk
2tbs Apple Cider Vinegar


MEAL #2 (1000)

2cup Chicken
1cup Brown Rice
1oz Almonds

MEAL #3 (1200)

2cup Chicken
1cup Brown Rice
1cup Lima Bean
4tbs Apple Cider Vinegar

MEAL #4 (1400) PWO

2cup Chicken
1cup White Rice
8oz Natural Grape Juice
1cup Ground Beef
1/2cup veggies (lima beans, peas, green beans)


MEAL #5 (1800)

1cup Chicken
1cup Brown Rice
Flaxseed Oil

MEAL #6 (2000)

1/2cup Almonds
8oz Grape Juice (Natural)
1 Sweet potato
2 Hard boiled eggs

W-Out
Monday - Chest
DBell Press
Dbell Flies
Dbell Incline Press
Weighted Dips

Tuesday - Arms
Dbell Curls
Tri Cable Extensions
Hammer Curls
Straight-bar Curls
Dips

Wednesday - Legs
Stretches
Leg Press
Squats
Leg Extensions
Calf Raises

Thu- OFF

Fri- Shoulders + Back
Pull-ups
Bentover Dbell Rows
Pulldowns (front)
Pulldowns (back)
Custom* Cable crossovers
T-bar

Sat- Stomach, traps

Sun - OFF




As far as WO regiment, if you'd like it to be in-depth, just tell me.

[Matt]

Yeah could you go into more depth with reps ect, also could do with macro's for your diet lol...

[Juturna]

W-Out
Monday - Chest
DBell Press 4 sets 10,10,8,8
Dbell Flies 3 sets 10,8,8
Dbell Incline Press 4 sets 10,10,8,8
Weighted Dips 4 sets 15,12,10,8

Tuesday - Arms
Dbell Curls 4 sets 12,10,10,8
Tri Cable Extensions 4 sets 12,10,10,8
Hammer Curls 3 sets 8,8,8
Straight-bar Curls 4 sets 12,10,10,8
Dips 4sets until burn out

Wednesday - Legs
Stretches
Leg Press 4sets 12,12,10,10
Squats 4sets 12,12,10,10
Leg Extensions 3sets 12,10,10
Calf Raises 4 sets, 20,15,15,20

Thu- OFF

Fri- Shoulders + Back
Pull-ups 4sets of 15
Bentover Dbell Rows 4sets 10,10,8,8
Pulldowns (front) 2sets 10,8
Pulldowns (back) 2sets 10,8
Custom* Cable crossovers 4sets 10,10,10,10
T-bar row 3sets 10,10,8

Sat- Stomach, traps

Sun - OFF


MEAL1:
CALS:616 FAT:12.8 CARBS:62.6 PROT:60.2
MEAL2:
CALS:826 FAT:26.3 CARBS:49.9 PROT:94.3
MEAL3:
CALS:785 FAT:26.3 CARBS:49.9 PROT:94.3
MEAL4:
CALS:955 FAT:33 CARBS:51.3 PROT:102.7
MEAL5:
CALS:413 FAT:13.2 CARBS:23.3 PROT:54.3
MEAL6:

[Papa Smurf]

Hey bro!

Post your diet up in the diet form along with your pics and goals. You will get 3 or 4 guys on there that know there s**t.

They will get you on a plan that will head you to the center stage!

[Matt]

FYI - I haven't skipped or replaced a single meal in over 4 months.

You see that in itself is a problem lol, your body adapts to this and growth can slow down and stop...

[Papa Smurf]

Yep! Shock that system Bro! Grap a Pizza! Hell at your age get 3! That will shock the crap outa ya!

[Juturna]

They will get you on a plan that will head you to the center stage!

JAMY along with a few other notable Diet Forum-'ers' are who helped me come up with this diet plan haha. I've heard that it takes about 6 months for your body to become used to a specific diet and stop using all it's nutrients. Wrong info?

[Matt]

JAMY along with a few other notable Diet Forum-'ers' are who helped me come up with this diet plan haha. I've heard that it takes about 6 months for your body to become used to a specific diet and stop using all it's nutrients. Wrong info?

I thought they might of done lol, i saw it and thought, yeah thats not bad, however id still like to see the macros because it doesnt seem alot, but i could be wrong....

[Juturna]

MEAL1:
CALS:616 FAT:12.8 CARBS:62.6 PROT:60.2
MEAL2:
CALS:826 FAT:26.3 CARBS:49.9 PROT:94.3
MEAL3:
CALS:785 FAT:26.3 CARBS:49.9 PROT:94.3
MEAL4:
CALS:955 FAT:33 CARBS:51.3 PROT:102.7
MEAL5:
CALS:413 FAT:13.2 CARBS:23.3 PROT:54.3

I don't know Meal 6 because I changed it a few months ago and never looked at the macros of it. I'll check it out tonight.

[Papa Smurf]

Your bigger now! Time for new diet plan. The way you grow (I still hate you) you will have to change up your intake every 2 months or so.

Input = output remember!

[ninesecz]

Listen to me and listen close... Do not touch steroids ... you obviously have a fast meabolism and are not going to get fat from eating a lot of food! If I were you and I am being serious I would fix my diet to ad another 1000-2000calories a day and go on a natural growth spurt! Another 20# on your frame (some muscle and even a little fat!) will look unreal ! People will see you and trust me you will start hearing the word JACKED!! If you use AAS people will still use that word to describe you.. but after 16weeks, when the cycle is over and you start to shrink back down... People are going to say "what happened to :"so and so"? He used to be pretty big and now he shrunk" Trust me your self esteem from that will hurt!! If you just continue to do it naturally, You will keep and hold that muscle you put on!! Trust me!! I would love to have your metabolism! I eat a slice of pizza and I lose my abs (when they show) you are lucky!! You get to eat and eat and eat whatever you want, whenever you want! And thats another thing that AAS could change for you 4 ever! Your young and have a ton of Natural test! Get some creatine,and Nitic Oxide and some food and let nature do what it is already doing for you!!

[Juturna]

Thank you PSmurf, Mad Matt and Ninesecz, I appreciate all the advice and comments, I'll definitely follow it and continue naturally. Oh well haha.

Any ideas regarding the diet? I'd post there but as well know it has about 5 people viewing it compared to the 99,999 viewing here.

[bmit]

Great work bro. Up your calories by 1000 per day for a couple months. Keep training right. And i guarantee you will put on size like a champ. Wait till you get closer to your genetic limit to take steroids . BC there is really no going back once you start. lol

[Matt]

Thank you PSmurf, Mad Matt and Ninesecz, I appreciate all the advice and comments, I'll definitely follow it and continue naturally. Oh well haha.

Any ideas regarding the diet? I'd post there but as well know it has about 5 people viewing it compared to the 99,999 viewing here.

Your diet will be sorted lol, just keep an eye on this thread...

[Juturna]

Will do, thanks again.

I hope my fvcking lats grow. I've been working on them like a maniac. (With enough rest time )

[jamyjamjr]

diet doesn't look too bad.. some small changes can be made.. but it seems it's working well.. you've put a bit on.. i would give myself another 6-8 months before using gear though..

good work..

btw, i'd drop the grape juice and skim milk

[Juturna]

Besides the GJuice and SMilk, what other 'small changes' should I make Jamy?

[jamyjamjr]

Shooting for Mr. Olympia wouldn't be bad


MEAL #1 (0800)

12 Egg Whites
1cup Brown Rice
2tbs Peanut Butter omit for better fats.. hows about u get rid of this and do 9 egg whites and 3 whole eggs.. good fats..
8oz Skim Milk omit
2tbs Apple Cider Vinegar macros for this?


MEAL #2 (1000)

2cup Chicken
1cup Brown Rice
1oz Almonds

MEAL #3 (1200)

2cup Chicken
1cup Brown Rice
1cup Lima Bean
4tbs Apple Cider Vinegar

MEAL #4 (1400) PWO

2cup Chicken
1cup White Rice
8oz Natural Grape Juice omit
1cup Ground Beef
1/2cup veggies (lima beans, peas, green beans)


MEAL #5 (1800)

1cup Chicken
1cup Brown Rice
Flaxseed Oil switch for evoo

MEAL #6 (2000)

1/2cup Almonds
8oz Grape Juice (Natural)
1 Sweet potato
2 Hard boiled eggs can this whole meal.. do 1/2lb of a lean beef like london broil or anything that's under 7% fat...



As far as WO regiment, if you'd like it to be in-depth, just tell me.

there are some changes for you..

[Juturna]

Thanks Jamy, I'll hit the commissary tomorrow and pick up some London Broil. For the whole eggs is hard-boiled eggs suffice? I prepare them for a three-day span.

For the Apple Cider Vinegar there are no macros, 0 carb, 0 fat, 0 pro, 0 sug, etc, it's just a natural way to increase blood flow throughout the body.

[RangersLTW]

This thread makes me sad.....maybe I can find some old pics of me......I am 6'0" wider in the shoulders and different shaped chest but besides that look the same......so sad....oh ya no to the cycle get as much naturally, I thought like you decided to jump on it....got bigger, got happy, had to take some down time, lost what I gained and then somewhat lost what I had before the cycle. So its a no go for the cycle, eat more and throw in some good supplements,not creatine in my opinion, just nitric oxide and some b vitamens....like b complex and b12 injects

[Juturna]

This thread makes me sad.....maybe I can find some old pics of me......I am 6'0" wider in the shoulders and different shaped chest but besides that look the same......so sad....oh ya no to the cycle get as much naturally, I thought like you decided to jump on it....got bigger, got happy, had to take some down time, lost what I gained and then somewhat lost what I had before the cycle. So its a no go for the cycle, eat more and throw in some good supplements,not creatine in my opinion, just nitric oxide and some b vitamens....like b complex and b12 injects

I hear you - I'm waiting on the cycle. Also - I'm opposed to supplement use. I'm sure you can respect that as a former Ranger. No use for it in my body when I can eat and have better results. The only time I ever saw N.O. necessary was overseas when I could steal some to fight the sleep. :/.

[jamyjamjr]

hard boiled is fine..

[Matt]

Thanks Jamy lol....

[Juturna]

Thanks, all.

[irish_2003]

def not eating enough.....if you're that ripped naturally there's no problem eating some cheeseburger and some heavier more calorie dense meals each day....you will put on some fat, but the extra bodyweight will increase your setpoint and you'll continue to grow naturally until you hit your peak.....i was like you and didn't grow until i was about 23 (built like a gymnast at 5'5 and 145lbs up to that point) and had been training for 8 years by then

[jamyjamjr]

def not eating enough.....if you're that ripped naturally there's no problem eating some cheeseburger and some heavier more calorie dense meals each day....you will put on some fat, but the extra bodyweight will increase your setpoint and you'll continue to grow naturally until you hit your peak.....i was like you and didn't grow until i was about 23 (built like a gymnast at 5'5 and 145lbs up to that point) and had been training for 8 years by then

i disagree completely..

[irish_2003]

btw i've gotten as big as 191 at 5'5" 35 years recently with only a handful of cycles and didn't touch juice till i was 24

[irish_2003]

i disagree completely..

i have made more gains following dogcrapp than i did eating clean all the time

[Juturna]

Well I've gained about 40 lbs so far, naturally on a clean diet... A lot of which is thanks to Jamy's advice among others. THanks for your input Irish but I'm all set.

[jamyjamjr]

i have made more gains following dogcrapp than i did eating clean all the time

if you ate clean you would have gotten even bigger and even more ripped.. u cant deny the science of it..

just the same as i cant deny that some people have genetics that let them eat shit like that and they can still look decent.. well, untill they hit an older age and the such metabolism fades.. a very ugly truth...